Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

UK F-35B Lost

Old 12th Dec 2021, 19:18
  #361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
Measuring the wind & WOD is fraught for sure. Allowances +/- are made for the uncertainty of it all. Recall that a ship at sea has Six Degrees of Freedom to confound the wind. The USN LSOs have muchos gadgets to measure all kinds of things during an aircraft approach. The CAT/Launch officer relies on the measures taken - displayed elsewhere - then a traffic light and his/her own judgement about those 6 degrees of freedom before signaling GO. The USN has undertaken lots of studies to measure and mitigate the BURBLE caused by the Island at various spots behind a CVN for approaching aircraft. The FORD class has extra measures to reduce/mitigate this effect (smaller island further aft with fillets on back end of the deck. The Brits invented the 'hurricane bow' to increase the safety for aircraft Ops, whilst of course later inventing the ski jump to increase STO launch safety amongst other effects for suitable aircraft.

During the Sea Venom era particularly, HMAS Melbourne would chase the wind lanes in an otherwise calm South China Sea on hot days to be able to launch those aircraft with transverse (fore & aft) G-limited airframes. The A4G could be launched at 9G transverse limit with usually the 5-6G experienced good enough. It was not unusual to see the tops of the long Pacific swell swirling down the 100 foot catapult track, so timing the launch could be vital. I have been told that my wheels creased the water as I climbed away but I have no recollection of this happening nor could I see this myself anyway, I have other memories. :-)

Ship 6 Degrees of Freedom:
The ship rotational degrees of freedom are termed roll, pitch, & yaw. In the translational degrees of freedom, up and down motion is called heave, forward to aft motion is called surge, & port to stbd motion is called sway.”


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 12th Dec 2021 at 19:42. Reason: addjpg
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2021, 19:41
  #362 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,849
Received 84 Likes on 35 Posts
Originally Posted by FlightDetent
I heard once from a sailor that, unlike for landbound aviation, their wind is steady?
.
I think that that's probably more a reference to the wind over the deck caused by the ship doing 30kts.
MightyGem is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2021, 20:25
  #363 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: London
Posts: 628
Received 308 Likes on 172 Posts
Originally Posted by MightyGem
I think that that's probably more a reference to the wind over the deck caused by the ship doing 30kts.
The wind experienced in a sailing boat is a lot more constant away from the effects of land, though it's obviously not uniform. There also tends to be quite a bit less diurnal variation; the wind at sea doesn't drop at night to the same degree it generally does on land.
pasta is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2021, 22:20
  #364 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,333
Received 806 Likes on 275 Posts
Correct. Text book.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2021, 22:39
  #365 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: florida
Age: 81
Posts: 1,617
Received 68 Likes on 23 Posts
Salute!

I always thot the nasal radiators used a flare on the bow and then turned the boat until the smoke went down the deck. And that would seem to work even with the angled deck. Although I unnerstan that landing would involve some different geometry and flight path, but not as much as 20 knot croswind on a land runway.

Gums wonders....
gums is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2021, 23:16
  #366 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
The PDF shows the instruments (also photo) seen by CVN crew to get WOD. The USN CVN crowd are able to carry out simultaneous cats & arrests (me old MELBOURNE could not do this) so there is a compromise for WOD. LAUNCH & RECOVERY BULLETINS for each aircraft state limits for operations of that aircraft. The CVN will work within those parameters when possible. I suppose in really awkward conditions they may not operate launch/land together. The flight deck of a CVN is a busy place indeed. The deck height is about 67 feet with anenanenanennommetters recording wind speed as stated so the readings are as accurate as possible. LSOs have a swathe of instrumentation to goggle at with main LSO concentrating on approaching aircraft so 'the LSOs' know when conditions are not within limits in real time. "POWER POWER POWER don't CLIMB". The flare (fired into the air from port side out to port) was used by the 'NON-LSO' in the Sea Venom era aboard MELBOURNE to wave off aircraft when I guess the deck was foul. During that era MELBOURNE did not have LSOs. Using a flare on deck probably not a good idea due fire hazard etc. Never heard of it meself.

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 12th Dec 2021 at 23:20. Reason: addtext
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2021, 08:12
  #367 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 343
Received 9 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
Using a flare on deck probably not a good idea due fire hazard etc. Never heard of it meself.
WW2 era British carriers had a steam feed to the bow which could be used to give a relative wind direction indication. Some pictures show calibrated markings around it to give the angle. Probably made redundant by the steam catapult doing the same thing as a side line.
Bing is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2021, 10:06
  #368 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
Looks like EAGLE had the same problem as MELBOURNE with the catapult start in the landing area. We see a Buccaneer being launched after the post 1964 refit: https://i.redd.it/sa5vv5prv5s31.jpg I'll guess we can see a wisp of steam in middle of bow? Or something else? HMS Eagle R 05 Audacious class aircraft carrier Royal Navy (seaforces.org) and HMS Theseus bow markings: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Roy...Theseus-03.jpg (ZOOM)




Last edited by SpazSinbad; 13th Dec 2021 at 10:23. Reason: addEARLs
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2021, 10:36
  #369 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,528
Received 3,286 Likes on 1,367 Posts
NutLoose is online now  
Old 13th Dec 2021, 11:00
  #370 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
Forgot to check the WOD? I like the way he gets back on his feet. COOL BEANS.
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 02:45
  #371 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 6,049
Received 549 Likes on 256 Posts
Better than the alternative Nutty, he did survive though.

megan is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 05:42
  #372 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: N Ireland
Posts: 268
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Obviously not a professional footballer.
Solar is online now  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 18:05
  #373 (permalink)  
YRP
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
Ship 6 Degrees of Freedom:
The ship rotational degrees of freedom are termed roll, pitch, & yaw. In the translational degrees of freedom, up and down motion is called heave, forward to aft motion is called surge, & port to stbd motion is called sway.”
Is this not overcomplicating things? Would it not be easier if they just held the ship steady, no?

(Some great reading on this thread, thanks for all the good posts).
YRP is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 18:18
  #374 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,528
Received 3,286 Likes on 1,367 Posts
This is pitch


NutLoose is online now  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 20:31
  #375 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
Originally Posted by YRP
Is this not overcomplicating things? Would it not be easier if they just held the ship steady, no?
(Some great reading on this thread, thanks for all the good posts).
Some more great reading about Naval Aviation may be found here: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/our-history/spazsinbad-a4g/
Not only are there 6 degrees of freedom but also 'urinating into the WOD' is verboten.
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 21:25
  #376 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 2,326
Received 26 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose
That's staggering - amazing they kept flying - although I suppose it's simply a denser fluid...
tartare is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 21:50
  #377 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
Originally Posted by tartare
That's staggering - amazing they kept flying - although I suppose it's simply a denser fluid...
Some photos/videos can be deceptive depending on factors such as viewing angle while without context lots can be surmised that is not true. The S-2 is flying into SEASPRAY, recall the flight deck in this instance is probably some fifty feet ASL. Sure WX is rough while perhaps the launch is mistimed however the aircraft is not disappearing into a wave but the spray from the wave below it. Nevertheless it is a spectacular video. It is a free deck take off in a storm, with the story on the internet and probably in my big PDF - I'll look.

Story here is just INaccurate: The Time a Plane Launched Directly Into a Wave (popularmechanics.com)

S-2 Tracker Free Take Off into a Wave Spray High WOD Heroes


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 14th Dec 2021 at 23:27. Reason: + viddy
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 23:28
  #378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
"...The bulk of the [Japanese F-35A] aircraft’s wreckage remains on the sea-floor, approximately 5,000 feet underwater. Although it was previously reported by local media that an extensive underwater search recovered the aircraft’s flight recorder, it was too badly damaged (crashed at an [estimated speed of 690 MPH]) for any data of the flight to be retrieved...." https://www.defensenews.com/global/a...or-f-35-crash/
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 08:33
  #379 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,333
Received 806 Likes on 275 Posts
Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
Some more great reading about Naval Aviation may be found here: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/our-history/spazsinbad-a4g/
Not only are there 6 degrees of freedom but also 'urinating into the WOD' is verboten.
And honking up is worse. I once witnessed it on a ferry to Guernsey, and the poor sod lost his upper set in the process. They ended up 6 feet behind him.
Yurrrrgh.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2021, 23:38
  #380 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,651
Received 74 Likes on 57 Posts
An example of the 'wind measuring devices' anneenenoonenomomeeters for the F-35B tests aboard CAVOUR. 6 page PDF attached.
...NAWCAD Prepares for Sea Trials By Bob Kaper... [Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division]
...The first simulation session was takeoff and landing training for the ITF test pilots. “We created every sort of testing point such as taking off with different weight, center of gravity, weapons load, asymmetrical loading and wind angle and speed,” said Robert Parlett, F-35 simulation engineer/operator.

The simulator also created replicas of the forces acting on the virtual aircraft along with data from virtual measuring instruments installed on it. As an example, the upward curvature of the ramp produces more force on the nose landing gear than the main landing gear, creating an upward pitching force.

The second phase of the simulator training involved the landing signal officer and air boss in the flight control station. The third simulation phase was training for Cavour crew members.

“Cadence includes how they say things, but also the pace and phrasing,” he said. “The timing between ‘ready’ and ‘clear for takeoff’ on an airfield and on the ship can be totally different because it may take much longer to get ready on the ship.”...

...ATR’s [Atlantic Test Ranges] optical team meanwhile tracked the aircraft through video cameras placed around the ship and monitored wind conditions. To check for clean air behind the bow wake, the team installed two 38-foot-high, pole-mounted anemometers on deck—one at the bow and one at the stern. [SOME NUMNUTS at this time on the internet characterised these towers as LIGHTNING RODS!] They also placed a laser-based anemometer called a lidar at the bow to measure winds at 65 feet. [THIS ONE PARTICULARLY] “All in all, it was a pretty good team effort,” Combs said. “We got an ‘attaboy’ from the ITF. They said ‘best TM (telemetry) on a ship yet’.”
— Bob Kaper is a senior technical writer for Atlantic Ranges & Targets. https://www.navair.navy.mil/sites/g/...ng2021_web.pdf (5Mb)
Attached Files
SpazSinbad is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.