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AUKUS

Old 24th Jul 2022, 02:43
  #981 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BBadanov View Post
Unfortunately, I may agree with our Froggie mate here.
With a Labor Govt in now (who never really want to talk nuke), and with our appalling and delayed procurement process, and the limited SSN supply pool, and the virtual lack of an AUS nuke industry and knowledge, nuke subs are not only a way off - but also delays will likely lead to a lack of interest as the project falls by the wayside.
But there is much benefit in ongoing AUKUS 3-eyes common procurement (of airframes for instance), intel, basing, networking, policy, procedures, exercises, operations, and dialog.
Nah - disagree.
The fact we have a Labor government has nothing to do with whether the subs will arrive.
AUKUS was the only thing those useless, do nothing muppets who were booted out did of any note.
Trust God, not Government? That's the calibre of leader we had for the last decade.
The adults who are now in charge are committed to the nuclear boats, and they'll arrive, despite the whining.
Might be a while, but the geopolitics of the region over the next few decades mean they're essential.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 09:15
  #982 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster Hyman View Post
Better than a White one.
Never raised a white one ? Singapore / Feb 1942
Never re-embarked in a rush ? Dunkirk, Gallipoli.....
Let's try to keep it to the sub subject.
There has been a major government change down under, so now the failure of the process can be offloaded to the previous one.
Being in need of nuclear subs is not the same as operating them, not even building.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 09:43
  #983 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JeanKhul View Post
There has been a major government change down under, so now the failure of the process can be offloaded to the previous one.
Being in need of nuclear subs is not the same as operating them, not even building.
Labor wont dump the project, its one of the few things the liberals did that is popular with majority of Australians. Last figures I saw it had 60-70% popularity, it was a not insubstantial amount of greens, which is why that after a few hours of criticising it the greens leader went AFK on the subject, polling came out it was popular even with greens voters
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 09:56
  #984 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by JeanKhul View Post
Never raised a white one ?
My bad. Capitulated & changed sides.

But sure, let's try to keep it to the sub subject.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 14:20
  #985 (permalink)  
 
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"did that is popular with majority of Australians. Last figures I saw it had 60-70% popularity,"

But in a few years the bills start to arrive, the media run "ANOTHER VAST Cost Overrun" and the Liberals start criticising because there is an election coming up and any stick will do t beat on the incumbents

​​​​​​​best thing would be to lease one ASAP and get it showing the flag Doesn't have to be an Astute or a Virginia - borrow one of the RN Trafalgar's that are coming out of service - just get started
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 15:08
  #986 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
borrow one of the RN Trafalgar's that are coming out of service - just get started
Possibly the worst option. Wrong end of the bathtub curve, lots of supportability issues. Taking revenge for the Ashes a bit far......
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 15:51
  #987 (permalink)  
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The final boat, HMS Triumph was due to be retired this year, that has been extended 18 months to 2024.

Several of the boats have, as they’ve aged, experienced thermal fatigue cracks in the reactor coolant systems, some critical. The PW2 reactors also don’t meet modern safety rules.

The chances of any having their life extended enough to be offered even temporarily to the RAN are between nil….. and nil.

The current proposal to base a couple of Astute in Australia and dual man them whilst training reactor officers and COs is about as far as the RN can stretch.
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Old 24th Jul 2022, 21:08
  #988 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin View Post
Possibly the worst option. Wrong end of the bathtub curve, lots of supportability issues. Taking revenge for the Ashes a bit far......
Agree thats the worst of all possible options, its worse than one of the the 688's. While it was a video and edited and possibly dramatised for TV the show they made last year on board a trafalgar did not paint the a ship (trenchant) in a good light in any way shape or form

Also note australia has mixed sex crews, neither the a trafalgars or 688 are designed for this. Virginia's are and think astutes are as well
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 00:27
  #989 (permalink)  
 
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Not really a surprise but as close to official confirmtion

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/aust...arine-courses/
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 03:31
  #990 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm - wonder if they'll put Oz Captains through UK Perisher...?
EDIT: I see they do already...
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 03:43
  #991 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Hmm - wonder if they'll put Oz Captains through UK Perisher...?
EDIT: I see they do already...
As you said we already do, we have been sending them to UK perisher since the days of the O-Boats. Last few years we have also been sending them to the dutch perisher and very recently they have been going through the a USN command course as well. Many of the australian captains, 3 last time I looked, are Ex Royal Navy

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Old 25th Jul 2022, 04:23
  #992 (permalink)  
 
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It sounds like a hell of a course - as you'd want it to be.
Great anecdote in the Hennessey book about the trainee who had a raw steak served to him in the captains chair by Teacher - because he wasn't being tactically aggressive enough.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 10:34
  #993 (permalink)  
 
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"The current proposal to base a couple of Astute in Australia "

Out of a current force of four? and three more due to arrive over quite a long time? The RN have always said they needed at least 7 for current ops.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 12:59
  #994 (permalink)  
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Anson currently on trials pre-commissioning. Agamemnon is due to to be commissioned about the end of 2024 early 2025 and the last Agincourt, around 2028.

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Old 25th Jul 2022, 14:04
  #995 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"The current proposal to base a couple of Astute in Australia "

Out of a current force of four? and three more due to arrive over quite a long time? The RN have always said they needed at least 7 for current ops.
I don't think there's an actual proposal to base a couple in Perth. That's far more likely to be a case of people adding 2+2 and getting 5.

However - it's not so long ago that visits of nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed warships to Australia were forbidden. ISTR Invincible (or possibly Lusty) having some real issues around that on a round the world tour in the mid to late 80s when she had a propulsion casualty and needed dry-docking. Not sure how many other kettle-powered ships have visited since then, although the policy is long-since defunct.
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Old 25th Jul 2022, 20:03
  #996 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin View Post
I don't think there's an actual proposal to base a couple in Perth. That's far more likely to be a case of people adding 2+2 and getting 5.

However - it's not so long ago that visits of nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed warships to Australia were forbidden. ISTR Invincible (or possibly Lusty) having some real issues around that on a round the world tour in the mid to late 80s when she had a propulsion casualty and needed dry-docking. Not sure how many other kettle-powered ships have visited since then, although the policy is long-since defunct.
Nulcear ships have never been banned from australia. You might be thinking of NZ but australia pretty much continuously gets visted by nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Subs are way less common and neither invincible or a illustrious was nuclear powered
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Old 26th Jul 2022, 01:26
  #997 (permalink)  
 
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Been saying SK conventional subs need to be strongly considered for interem replacement for collins and maybe I was right

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/...e-collins-gap/
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Old 26th Jul 2022, 05:31
  #998 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattman View Post
Nulcear ships have never been banned from australia. You might be thinking of NZ but australia pretty much continuously gets visted by nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Subs are way less common and neither invincible or a illustrious was nuclear powered
Nukes are/were banned from Fremantle.

Nuclear powered Carriers had to anchor on the outer anchorage at Gage Roads.

Subs could sneak down the channel to FBW and hide out there.

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Old 26th Jul 2022, 05:58
  #999 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattman View Post
Been saying SK conventional subs need to be strongly considered for interem replacement for collins and maybe I was right

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/...e-collins-gap/
There are going to be more opinion pieces, than flees on a dog. This one is stating the Collins will go to 2030.

This doesn't allow for the LOTE. Starting in 2026 and finishing in 2038. With a 10 year service life. Taking it to the last one being in the water till 2048. There is also talk of some hulls may be suitable for a second update. Currently "The Collins Class are internationally regarded among the best conventional submarines in the world" I don't see that changing after the LOTE

There is also statements about other weapon systems covering any potential gaps. The potential gap may be covered, we will find out in 9 months.

Last edited by golder; 26th Jul 2022 at 06:20.
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Old 26th Jul 2022, 07:19
  #1000 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Anson currently on trials pre-commissioning. Agamemnon is due to to be commissioned about the end of 2024 early 2025 and the last Agincourt, around 2028.
"Astute" was completed in 2007 - so that's a +21 year programme for 7 boats. Gives you some idea of how hard it is to build up a fleet.
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