617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!
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^^
Good post and a worthy contribution. Used intellectually, and in specific circumstances, the "history" defence is valid, credible and necessary. Used glibly, as a catch all, it's just naked institutionalied racism. This is very clearly the latter. The contribution of the hound and codeword are insignificant, the word is nowadays utterly beyond the pale to any decent human being, the row completely detracts from one of the great feat of arms of warfare.
That's my ten penneth...I'm moving on, so should some of you.
Good post and a worthy contribution. Used intellectually, and in specific circumstances, the "history" defence is valid, credible and necessary. Used glibly, as a catch all, it's just naked institutionalied racism. This is very clearly the latter. The contribution of the hound and codeword are insignificant, the word is nowadays utterly beyond the pale to any decent human being, the row completely detracts from one of the great feat of arms of warfare.
That's my ten penneth...I'm moving on, so should some of you.
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1984 is coming to life. Winston Smith too.
The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.
Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?
The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.
Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?
I am offended that you are offended!
I am sorry but I take issue with the notion that the 'N' word has become 'grossly offensive'. So when did that change? Probably about the same time that the 'F' word became acceptable to use in public. I still find the 'F' word offensive, probably harking back when I my derriere thumped for using it.
The word was enshrined in the common law for many years as its use would invite a charge of offensive language - despite the use of it double-barrelled by our American cousins invoking one's maternal parent. Same with the 'C' word - a derogatory term that could otherwise be described by its proper definition.
So this concept of 'offensive' is purely manufactured. I say become an engineer (you know, build a bridge and get over it). I shall retire now to eat my pork pie in the local synagogue.
The word was enshrined in the common law for many years as its use would invite a charge of offensive language - despite the use of it double-barrelled by our American cousins invoking one's maternal parent. Same with the 'C' word - a derogatory term that could otherwise be described by its proper definition.
So this concept of 'offensive' is purely manufactured. I say become an engineer (you know, build a bridge and get over it). I shall retire now to eat my pork pie in the local synagogue.
Thread Starter
Trying to be a bit more objective in the approach to the debate, you actually need to look at the etymology of the word. The first real use of the word dates back to Roman times and the word Nigrum or Niger which means black or dark. As many western languages are based upon Latin then it doesn’t seem surprising that the word is prevalent in English, Spanish/Portuguese (negro), French (nègre), Dutch (neger) or Italian (nero). There are also various forms in the English language - namely niger, nigger, neger and negar.
Well before the Slave Trade and the racism that ensued from the period, the word was used in various texts from the 1500s. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes”.
The use of the word ‘nigger’ as derogatory term developed later In the late 18th Century alongside the established use that had been ongoing for literally millennia before that (that being in reference to a dark or black colour). It was used to put down people with African origin, mostly in the Americas, and that is where the offensive use remained for many years. It probably reached it’s pinnacle of awareness in the racial context in the 1950s and 1960s with the work to end segregation in the USA.
So, it really comes down to intent. If Gibson named his dog ‘nigger’ as he saw it as a way to put down people with black skin, then that would indeed be a racist intent. However, if he named his dog ‘nigger’ due to the Latin derivation and the fact the word, at that point, had not become such a word of abhorrence amongst many today, then that is a different matter. As others have said, we cannot erase history, and we shouldn’t - if amongst Gibson’s memoirs we find that the naming of his dog was with racist intent then of course it should be called out and the name removed. If not, the dog’s name should remain and people should be educated that there are 2 contexts to the word ‘nigger’ - one which dates back thousands of years to the Latin language and the other, which is with derogative intent, should never be used.
Well before the Slave Trade and the racism that ensued from the period, the word was used in various texts from the 1500s. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes”.
The use of the word ‘nigger’ as derogatory term developed later In the late 18th Century alongside the established use that had been ongoing for literally millennia before that (that being in reference to a dark or black colour). It was used to put down people with African origin, mostly in the Americas, and that is where the offensive use remained for many years. It probably reached it’s pinnacle of awareness in the racial context in the 1950s and 1960s with the work to end segregation in the USA.
So, it really comes down to intent. If Gibson named his dog ‘nigger’ as he saw it as a way to put down people with black skin, then that would indeed be a racist intent. However, if he named his dog ‘nigger’ due to the Latin derivation and the fact the word, at that point, had not become such a word of abhorrence amongst many today, then that is a different matter. As others have said, we cannot erase history, and we shouldn’t - if amongst Gibson’s memoirs we find that the naming of his dog was with racist intent then of course it should be called out and the name removed. If not, the dog’s name should remain and people should be educated that there are 2 contexts to the word ‘nigger’ - one which dates back thousands of years to the Latin language and the other, which is with derogative intent, should never be used.
Just because time has passed on the Gregorian calendar doesn't mean that 'stuff in the past' should be arbitrarily dumped. Democracy, monarchy and marriage are all old. Do we dump those too?
Despite your post calling us racist time and time again, in these awful times of mob rule the R word has ceased to have any further useful meaning as it is thrown about too easily.
Just a thought, but if you were an ethnic minority service member at the station or even just in the RAF, how would you feel if the management thought remembering a dog's name was more important than not having a derogatory term for you in plain sight?
My unit has a lot of ethnic minority service personnel, and frankly I'd find it impossible to justify leaving it up even if none of them complained about it.
My unit has a lot of ethnic minority service personnel, and frankly I'd find it impossible to justify leaving it up even if none of them complained about it.
Just a couple of observations.
I don't believe the gravestone should have been changed but I am all too aware of the politically correct times in which we exist and therefore I was disappointed rather than surprised.
On my many visits to Scampton for exercises and courses, I was always under the impression that the dog was not actually in the grave. Perhaps he was 'thrown over the hedge' or maybe it was those naughty Vulcan co-pilots !
I am getting tired of being expected to apologise for historical events upon which my generation nor my parents or grandparents generation had no control.
The silent majority will not remain silent for much longer if these trends continue.
I wonder who actually made this decision - Air Force Board, AOC, Staish or OC Admin ?
To those who continually say 'it was just a dog', I would simply say this; I would rather spend eternity with my dogs than the majority of human beings I have encountered in forty five years of flying !
I don't believe the gravestone should have been changed but I am all too aware of the politically correct times in which we exist and therefore I was disappointed rather than surprised.
On my many visits to Scampton for exercises and courses, I was always under the impression that the dog was not actually in the grave. Perhaps he was 'thrown over the hedge' or maybe it was those naughty Vulcan co-pilots !
I am getting tired of being expected to apologise for historical events upon which my generation nor my parents or grandparents generation had no control.
The silent majority will not remain silent for much longer if these trends continue.
I wonder who actually made this decision - Air Force Board, AOC, Staish or OC Admin ?
To those who continually say 'it was just a dog', I would simply say this; I would rather spend eternity with my dogs than the majority of human beings I have encountered in forty five years of flying !
Last edited by beamer; 17th Jul 2020 at 08:20. Reason: errors
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Imagine a black 17 year old LAC walking past the original and seeing that word.
How valued would they feel in this 21st century Royal Air Force?
Edit: I see Bing essentially makes the same point above.
How valued would they feel in this 21st century Royal Air Force?
Edit: I see Bing essentially makes the same point above.
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New name
I am going to call my next Black Lab dog 'Gibson'.
As to the 17 year old LAC, I would hope,having enlisted in the Royal Air Force that he/she or whatever,would be aware of the history of that remarkable raid.
As to the 17 year old LAC, I would hope,having enlisted in the Royal Air Force that he/she or whatever,would be aware of the history of that remarkable raid.
Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.
On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.
Jack
On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.
Jack
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Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.
On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.
Jack
On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.
Jack
Why not get rid of the dog's grave. History doesn't matter anymore, to hell with the past, including the Damn Buster Raid. We have to join the 'modernistas' and decry the past and all the horrible things that were done to upset the modern PC gang!
Goes to show how bizarre/bonkers/mad the world has become due to various "useful idiots" on "anti-social" media. Far more important matters that require very urgent attention in these strange times.
She too had a black labrador which she of course called
Paddy
Oh the shame.
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My son's 2 black labs are called Digger and Diesel. Just one small typo away from disaster!
Last edited by MPN11; 17th Jul 2020 at 09:58.