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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

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617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

Old 17th Jul 2020, 15:58
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 16:00
  #102 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
My son's 2 black labs are called Digger and Diesel. Just one small typo away from disaster!
Snigger

😁
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 16:43
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Trigger warning: the link below contains racist language.

What does the dog’s ghost have to say?
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 16:47
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Is there something offensive about Niesel?
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 16:57
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Grrr

Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.
Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 16:58
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob

I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to

BV
Never understood why Paki was considered offensive to those of Pakistani origin.

During the 10 years I lived in Australia I was often referred to as the Pom or Pommy. Hardly made me angry, or “ upset” far from it ! Thought of it as term of affection from my mates !

C, mon guys get a grip, the dog’s name was Nigger period.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:06
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim View Post
Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!
But it isnt about history, if it was then 35 or 44 would be flying F35s. It’s about PR.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:15
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by unclenelli View Post
The N-name doesn't endure - the callsign is now "BlackDog", and isn't used by 617 Sqn!
Used by the CRC at Scampton as shown on the Sky programme. 16:40 8n.

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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop View Post
Terrible PC bollix. 'Nigger' was indeed a part of the history of the raid and should not be 'cancelled' from history. I hope the idiot at Scampton who ordered this vandalism finds no peace.
No Wing commander would do this unless they had top cover from the CAS downwards. Because if they had not authority, they'd be having a hats on interview without coffee or biccies and their career would becoming to a screaming halt.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:23
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Grrr

Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
But it isnt about history, if it was then 35 or 44 would be flying F35s. It’s about PR.
Then this PR farce was unnecessary! This PR change has brought about the opposite to that intended. It has brought attention to a feeble attempt to try and cover up a perceived offensive slur that did not exist!
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:32
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Well anyway, it will all be a housing estate soon and the “gravestone “ in a museum at best. Maybe it’s in preparation for that the wording has been changed.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:45
  #112 (permalink)  
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Air Pig, only true to a point. You makes your pitch, you pursade your boss and when it goes to rats hit, one boss may cover you and the other duck for cover. Either way you have a black mark against your name.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 17:47
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Look at all the healthy discussion this has generated! Considering whether the “17 year old LAC” would, or should, be offended by the original gravestone is to my mind what BLM is asking us to do and what the almost endless D&I initiatives have been trying to instill.

I would be disappointed if anyone on this forum held the view that it would be acceptable to apply the dog’s name to anybody today; I can, however, accept people have different views and opinions about the historical use.

Perhaps by changing the gravestone we have missed the opportunity to have a colocated Force Development info panel inviting people to reflect on the changing attitudes to race in the Armed Forces and wider society? Of course, the same or similar info panel could be placed next to the new gravestone. History is important, learning from it is very important.

As far as the gravestone goes I’m ambivalent, but for the wider issue of what people find acceptable or offensive please don’t “catch up & shut up” or “move on”. We won’t get everything right, and today’s right might be judged differently in the future, but open minds are going to be healthier than closed ones.

If any of that offends you, great - tell me why and maybe I can learn from your perspective and experiences.


(Edited for poor spelling & grammar - which is obviously offensive!)

Last edited by SwitchMonkey; 17th Jul 2020 at 20:45.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 18:12
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Air Pig, only true to a point. You makes your pitch, you pursade your boss and when it goes to rats hit, one boss may cover you and the other duck for cover. Either way you have a black mark against your name.
And that will happen all the way up the CoC as happens in the NHS. This case is so potentially volatile I can't see a relatively junior officer making such a decision on their own unless they wanted career suicide.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 18:17
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post

Do you really want the prevailing narrative about the legend of the Dambusters to be about GG’s dog? Or would you rather people knew and heard about the incredible and heroic missions they undertook?
Until some idiot decided to re-write history, it was all about the mission. Trying to erase the past has brought this back into the light, not those of us who can see that this is wrong and are railing at the idiocy of it.

Consider this: if we remove all references (and I mean ALL, once you've started this, you can't stop here) to our racist past, how do our children learn about just how racist our society was and see how far things have moved forwards and how much further there is still to go? Changing the past to suit some current version of what is 'politically correct' is wrong at every level. That's not racist, it applies to everything, irrespective of colour, race, gender, religion etc etc etc.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 19:16
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Saintsman View Post
Perhaps we should do something about Operation Black Buck.

What message does a name like that send?
Well my first thought was. The blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), also known as the Indian antelope, is an antelope found in India, Nepal, and Pakistan. The blackbuck is the sole extant member of the genus Antilope.



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Old 17th Jul 2020, 19:20
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
During the 10 years I lived in Australia I was often referred to as the Pom or Pommy. Hardly made me angry, or “ upset” far from it ! Thought of it as term of affection from my mates !
.

Or being called by extended family in the UK "those damned colonials" really pissed off the grandmother that her son marrying a damned colonial(beneath her stead) was a viscountess with more points on the crown than she had.IE: he married up
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 19:39
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Wink

Originally Posted by rigpiggy View Post
Well my first thought was. The blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), also known as the Indian antelope, is an antelope found in India, Nepal, and Pakistan. The blackbuck is the sole extant member of the genus Antilope.


Are these cummin over 'ere an all then. Bleedin' 'ell, political correctness gawn mad it is!

FB
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 19:51
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim View Post
Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!
But it's not out of context! The context is (was) a memorial which displayed a word which is no longer deemed acceptable and a multicultural organisation which deemed it no longer justifiable in the current setting.
You can't have something which is in existence today and claim it's only relevant to yesterday!
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 20:05
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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I hate to add fuel to the fire but the CRC callsign 'BlackDog' was changed a few weeks back. The gravestone I kind of get, the callsign change not so much.
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