View Poll Results: Is the C130J a Strat only aircraft
Strat only aircraft
7
7.95%
Should be used for both Strat and Tac
40
45.45%
Should be tac only as other aircraft are better for Strat
19
21.59%
Who cares, it\'s just one big computer game with motion!
22
25.00%
Voters: 88. This poll is closed
C130J just a strat aircraft?
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Mike RO
I have flown many 1000s of hours on the old K, most in the TAC AT role, and more recently accrued nearly a 1000 in the J. Most of the misinformed comments about the J seem to come from the BZN Antiques Roadshow mates so I have not bothered to reply.
I dont think you can be serious, the K difficult to fly and trim at low level? Its a babe. I have been fortunate to fly the J in its early stages of TAC AT development, and believe me it is even better. One example being its better rate of climb during weather penetrations. As for the workload issue, the pilot non flying spends little time heads in, trained crews can quickly manipulate the kit if required, and re-routes are more quickly sorted. The workload for both pilots is much less than on a K. Furthermore, the ac is showing excellent NVG potential. However, it is acknowledged that for a small number of mission profiles, such as SF high level of difficulty, then a 3rd pilot may be carried.
As for the MTOW issue, the J is limited to a max normal of 155 000lbs, as are all other C130s except the K. The 160 000 lbs clearance for normal ops was never endorsed by Lockheed. However, there is work being done to clear the J to a normal MTOW of 167 000lbs.
I have also trained many pilots on the J and I have yet to find one that would return to the K. Take a ride in one and see.
I have flown many 1000s of hours on the old K, most in the TAC AT role, and more recently accrued nearly a 1000 in the J. Most of the misinformed comments about the J seem to come from the BZN Antiques Roadshow mates so I have not bothered to reply.
I dont think you can be serious, the K difficult to fly and trim at low level? Its a babe. I have been fortunate to fly the J in its early stages of TAC AT development, and believe me it is even better. One example being its better rate of climb during weather penetrations. As for the workload issue, the pilot non flying spends little time heads in, trained crews can quickly manipulate the kit if required, and re-routes are more quickly sorted. The workload for both pilots is much less than on a K. Furthermore, the ac is showing excellent NVG potential. However, it is acknowledged that for a small number of mission profiles, such as SF high level of difficulty, then a 3rd pilot may be carried.
As for the MTOW issue, the J is limited to a max normal of 155 000lbs, as are all other C130s except the K. The 160 000 lbs clearance for normal ops was never endorsed by Lockheed. However, there is work being done to clear the J to a normal MTOW of 167 000lbs.
I have also trained many pilots on the J and I have yet to find one that would return to the K. Take a ride in one and see.
C130J
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I flew in a J the other day and I have been converted, I was v. impressed, it's just a shame no one bothered to spend any time thinking about aft of 245. After all it is a cargo ac.
Whatever the J's short commings are at the moment they will have to be sorted out as too much money has been put into it already and the k is starting to knock on.
The one thing I really liked about the J is that it's not started, it's booted up... fantastic. :confused
As for Devildawg comments about our lack of balls all I can say is that he is a complete and utter - begins with W and sounds like anker.
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Whatever the J's short commings are at the moment they will have to be sorted out as too much money has been put into it already and the k is starting to knock on.
The one thing I really liked about the J is that it's not started, it's booted up... fantastic. :confused
As for Devildawg comments about our lack of balls all I can say is that he is a complete and utter - begins with W and sounds like anker.
:
Last edited by getout773; 2nd Jul 2002 at 20:10.
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Bassett
Thank you for such a candid reply - I can just about feel the weight of your sincerity!
As I said, over the past years I have heard all kinds of talk in the bars from Brize and Lyn to Akronelli and beyond. My feeling is that for a lot of the time J guys talk the a/c up while the K crews talk it down (to be expected). Almost everyone on the J has always sung its praises (also expected) but 'in their cups' some have expressed reservations about the 2 - person flt deck, especially at LL and that sets my alarm bells ringing.
If you are someone with some influence, I hope that you have noticed it too and are in a position to check some people's apparent mad rush - more haste less speed and get the Tac training right first time with the right people.
I am a cautious old soul who believes the adage of 'old/bold etc' and I may now be an old-ish fart, but experience counts for a lot - i guess thats why we have spec aircrew (not this PA-bollox).
If it means anything, I think the J is potentially brilliant but it is not yet the b-all and end-all with lots of work to. Not least, the tactical awareness of J crews is below that of the K crews (47 mainly). However, the J is not alone in this and I could level this at every AT/AAR ac type - it takes a long time to do that on any ac and 2 Gp have so many 'route-queens' - the K included!
Also, and unfortunately, the J is still a Herc airframe and when operating at MTOW - it only carries as much as a K, albeit off a shorter runway!
(167,000 lbs would be something but having seen the ******ed K airframes post Gulf and also after the latest 'war', I think you would do well to stay clear of that part of the envelope!)
I also wish people (esp snr bods) would be honest and stand up and be counted - we seem to have bred a generation of bullsh.tters, so no-one is sure what the problems really are!
The big question is - can the J get it right before the next generation of Tac Airlifter comes along with all the clearances already in place for its ISD in 2008 (allegedly)?
God speed but please don't run before you can walk - Be careful out there in AFG/PAK.
Thank you for such a candid reply - I can just about feel the weight of your sincerity!
As I said, over the past years I have heard all kinds of talk in the bars from Brize and Lyn to Akronelli and beyond. My feeling is that for a lot of the time J guys talk the a/c up while the K crews talk it down (to be expected). Almost everyone on the J has always sung its praises (also expected) but 'in their cups' some have expressed reservations about the 2 - person flt deck, especially at LL and that sets my alarm bells ringing.
If you are someone with some influence, I hope that you have noticed it too and are in a position to check some people's apparent mad rush - more haste less speed and get the Tac training right first time with the right people.
I am a cautious old soul who believes the adage of 'old/bold etc' and I may now be an old-ish fart, but experience counts for a lot - i guess thats why we have spec aircrew (not this PA-bollox).
If it means anything, I think the J is potentially brilliant but it is not yet the b-all and end-all with lots of work to. Not least, the tactical awareness of J crews is below that of the K crews (47 mainly). However, the J is not alone in this and I could level this at every AT/AAR ac type - it takes a long time to do that on any ac and 2 Gp have so many 'route-queens' - the K included!
Also, and unfortunately, the J is still a Herc airframe and when operating at MTOW - it only carries as much as a K, albeit off a shorter runway!
(167,000 lbs would be something but having seen the ******ed K airframes post Gulf and also after the latest 'war', I think you would do well to stay clear of that part of the envelope!)
I also wish people (esp snr bods) would be honest and stand up and be counted - we seem to have bred a generation of bullsh.tters, so no-one is sure what the problems really are!
The big question is - can the J get it right before the next generation of Tac Airlifter comes along with all the clearances already in place for its ISD in 2008 (allegedly)?
God speed but please don't run before you can walk - Be careful out there in AFG/PAK.
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My point exactly! The ALM should be looking after the trunk space - esp if carrying pax - and/or having their eyes out of the windows and not playing at computers or EW. Some countries carry 2 ALMs just for the lookout option! So, once again, who is extra pair of eyes/EW systems operator at the front - that all other countries want for Tac AT ac? Even the FSTA is rumoured to have a third chap/chapess for trails and war-like tanking up close to the FEBA!
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Why bother with all this Herc ****? The C17 is already proven at low level, NVG carrying at least 80T of freight with DAS blah blah 2 pilots etc.......Why try and make an issue of something that can already be done? There is no doubt that the J's cockpit is as good if not better then the C17s, the J will be able to do the job. The K really is history and it seems to me that those at Lyenham still flying it should accept this and move forward or are you all so ***** that the thought of change and being knocked off your ****ing perches scares you that much? CR(A) - ****.
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Is MrO really just Admin Guru or that other pest WEB Fanatic! in disguise?
Or is he/she one of the FEW AR@!S left from circa Carterton who rather blinkerdly believes that anything aft of the flight deck door is only fit for making tea or coffee and doing up lap straps. Whilst only true sky gods sit in the cockpit, a location rather aptly named for the likes of MrO!
GM to answer your question the J is completely a 2 man flight deck. The guys are taught from the outset that us tea boys are not going to be available so they have to react to all flight deck occurances as a two man crew. More importantly when we are available we restrict ourselves to merely following the drill from the FRC's or book 3 and SHOULD only pipe up if we felt something untoward was occuring. Our "tech" is reasonable but no way near as in depth as our pilots, although some would no doubt dissagree with me there.
However apart from producing the odd hot drink and halumi lounza roll with our all singing and dancing micro waves us ALM's have proved and are continuing to prove that we have a lot more to offer in the way of flight deck help. We can, when asked and not as the norm!!!, talk to artichoke, pass departure messages, copy down and more importantly fully understand taf's and actuals, liase with mil and civil op's regards A/C and pax requirments, balance the fuel panel and crossfeed as required. And as part of our pilot incapacitation drills we need to be able to monitor VSI and bank angles via HUD or head down diplays, understand approach plates etc and assist if required with air traffic calls bt with the "automatics" working any capt or co worth his salt can manage all this quite happily on his own.
However as I said this help is simply offered, fairly regularly practiced BUT IS NOT EXPECTED. And I am led to believe that even more skills will be taught as part of the Tac package again to assist only and not to replace.
Bearing in mind my earlier post stating that if a Puma/Chinook can rattle around at 140 kts at 50' with a pilot and a nav whose only nav aids are gps and a quarter mil then why can't a J with it's HUD, moving map display,GCAS, F16 radar!!! etc etc manage it at 150' -250' with 2 pilots. The simple answer..............IT CAN!!
However MrO I can only speculate that the various CRM packages introduced over recent years were to counter the neanderthal attitude of those like your self. I, and I am sure many of my colleagues will find your assertion that ALM's "play" at anything extremely insulting. We are all proffesional aircrew doing our utmost to offer the very best service we can and the idea that we would be best placed aft of 245 for the entire flight watching the walking freight sleep or making sure the palletised freight is secure is not only ludicrous but a complete waste of a valuable asset, which thankfully the vast majority of the J front enders completely aggree with.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Or is he/she one of the FEW AR@!S left from circa Carterton who rather blinkerdly believes that anything aft of the flight deck door is only fit for making tea or coffee and doing up lap straps. Whilst only true sky gods sit in the cockpit, a location rather aptly named for the likes of MrO!
GM to answer your question the J is completely a 2 man flight deck. The guys are taught from the outset that us tea boys are not going to be available so they have to react to all flight deck occurances as a two man crew. More importantly when we are available we restrict ourselves to merely following the drill from the FRC's or book 3 and SHOULD only pipe up if we felt something untoward was occuring. Our "tech" is reasonable but no way near as in depth as our pilots, although some would no doubt dissagree with me there.
However apart from producing the odd hot drink and halumi lounza roll with our all singing and dancing micro waves us ALM's have proved and are continuing to prove that we have a lot more to offer in the way of flight deck help. We can, when asked and not as the norm!!!, talk to artichoke, pass departure messages, copy down and more importantly fully understand taf's and actuals, liase with mil and civil op's regards A/C and pax requirments, balance the fuel panel and crossfeed as required. And as part of our pilot incapacitation drills we need to be able to monitor VSI and bank angles via HUD or head down diplays, understand approach plates etc and assist if required with air traffic calls bt with the "automatics" working any capt or co worth his salt can manage all this quite happily on his own.
However as I said this help is simply offered, fairly regularly practiced BUT IS NOT EXPECTED. And I am led to believe that even more skills will be taught as part of the Tac package again to assist only and not to replace.
Bearing in mind my earlier post stating that if a Puma/Chinook can rattle around at 140 kts at 50' with a pilot and a nav whose only nav aids are gps and a quarter mil then why can't a J with it's HUD, moving map display,GCAS, F16 radar!!! etc etc manage it at 150' -250' with 2 pilots. The simple answer..............IT CAN!!
However MrO I can only speculate that the various CRM packages introduced over recent years were to counter the neanderthal attitude of those like your self. I, and I am sure many of my colleagues will find your assertion that ALM's "play" at anything extremely insulting. We are all proffesional aircrew doing our utmost to offer the very best service we can and the idea that we would be best placed aft of 245 for the entire flight watching the walking freight sleep or making sure the palletised freight is secure is not only ludicrous but a complete waste of a valuable asset, which thankfully the vast majority of the J front enders completely aggree with.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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ABIW
Unfortunately, you are still missing the point but I will not enter into abusive and personal slanging matches.
As captain ( I was on the K), I am totally dependent on the rest of my crew and they on the highly(?) paid stick monkeys in the front. But I would do everything to ensure the whole lot of us stay alive.
I am not suggesting by any means that ALMs are glorified trolley dollies (which is a total insult and I am dismayed you think that is what I have implied). But when AAA, small arms and/or MANPADs are flying about, the place for ALMs is looking out of the windows - 'cos DAS is not a cloaking device and its not 100 pc reliable! If the ALM(s) are not looking out during approach/landing and T/O/departure, they should be busy with the paras/other chaps or CVRT/WIMIX/Loads etc.
Which means that there is b.gger all redundancy in the front for doing the WSO/AEOp type of things that need doing - not getting f...g weathers for Akronelli! However, I know ALMs are capable of doing the things you mention, its just not appropriate when in bandit country - you are more use saving the crews @rses!
Sadly, my thousands of hours of experience is falling on deaf ears - but of course, I'd forgotten, the J is a new aircraft and all previous knowledge is worthless. Have fun with your new toy - don't break it and come back in one piece.
Unfortunately, you are still missing the point but I will not enter into abusive and personal slanging matches.
As captain ( I was on the K), I am totally dependent on the rest of my crew and they on the highly(?) paid stick monkeys in the front. But I would do everything to ensure the whole lot of us stay alive.
I am not suggesting by any means that ALMs are glorified trolley dollies (which is a total insult and I am dismayed you think that is what I have implied). But when AAA, small arms and/or MANPADs are flying about, the place for ALMs is looking out of the windows - 'cos DAS is not a cloaking device and its not 100 pc reliable! If the ALM(s) are not looking out during approach/landing and T/O/departure, they should be busy with the paras/other chaps or CVRT/WIMIX/Loads etc.
Which means that there is b.gger all redundancy in the front for doing the WSO/AEOp type of things that need doing - not getting f...g weathers for Akronelli! However, I know ALMs are capable of doing the things you mention, its just not appropriate when in bandit country - you are more use saving the crews @rses!
Sadly, my thousands of hours of experience is falling on deaf ears - but of course, I'd forgotten, the J is a new aircraft and all previous knowledge is worthless. Have fun with your new toy - don't break it and come back in one piece.
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Mike
With all due respect I think you’ll find that your thousands of hours of K experience are matched by a great number of people on the J fleet. Far from disregarding any past experiences I’d hope we’d tried to take what was good and relevant onto the new aircraft. The people now developing the tac course are not what you might term inexperienced as either K or J operators. What they say would place them at odds with you on a number of issues, particularly workload. Are you so arrogant as to think you know more than these people who have operated both ac types? Your posts have grown less strident through this thread, but sorry, the early ones suggest you clearly are that arrogant.
With all due respect I think you’ll find that your thousands of hours of K experience are matched by a great number of people on the J fleet. Far from disregarding any past experiences I’d hope we’d tried to take what was good and relevant onto the new aircraft. The people now developing the tac course are not what you might term inexperienced as either K or J operators. What they say would place them at odds with you on a number of issues, particularly workload. Are you so arrogant as to think you know more than these people who have operated both ac types? Your posts have grown less strident through this thread, but sorry, the early ones suggest you clearly are that arrogant.
Last edited by RoboAlbert; 4th Jul 2002 at 16:28.
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RoboA
I am not so arrogant to admit that I might be wrong! In fact I have checked out a few sources and well.........****** and sorry - that's rumour for you!! However, not all of my comments are off the mark - my comments on ALMs and lookout still stands as does the fact that Ks have been better 'trucks' in AFG than the J is at present - of course that may change and its only a matter of perspective and rose-tinted Oakleys on both sides, I suspect. Strangely, there doesn't seem to be much comment from the southside of Lyn on this thread but lots of rattled cages on the northside - does that say something? I suppose it might?
But I must repeat that I am only stating what I have heard from around the houses/bars. Also, I must repeat that I have no axe to grind either way - I am just interested in reality and not supposition. Furthermore, I have many friends at Lyn - both J, K and ground branches. Some have a lot more experience than myself on the Herc but a significant number of people have concerns that things are not all sweetness and light on the J. All that 'people' want from the J is a sensible progression to full Op status (which will surely come) - but not a headlong rush into oblivion. No-one wants a week or more of funerals - been there done that - not again thanks!
I sincerely apologise if I come across as arrogant but I am only taking the lead from the attitude of some (but not all) senior offs on the J side of things (at Lyn and 2 Gp) who have blatantly shunned their oppos on the K.
As i have said before - be careful out there. The J is an impressive beast. However, I am more than convinced that it will bite very hard - likle any a/c - and let's face it, most of us who have ended up on multis are not the 'sharpest knives in the drawer' - by definition. It is those who think they are, that are the arrogant ones.
I am not so arrogant to admit that I might be wrong! In fact I have checked out a few sources and well.........****** and sorry - that's rumour for you!! However, not all of my comments are off the mark - my comments on ALMs and lookout still stands as does the fact that Ks have been better 'trucks' in AFG than the J is at present - of course that may change and its only a matter of perspective and rose-tinted Oakleys on both sides, I suspect. Strangely, there doesn't seem to be much comment from the southside of Lyn on this thread but lots of rattled cages on the northside - does that say something? I suppose it might?
But I must repeat that I am only stating what I have heard from around the houses/bars. Also, I must repeat that I have no axe to grind either way - I am just interested in reality and not supposition. Furthermore, I have many friends at Lyn - both J, K and ground branches. Some have a lot more experience than myself on the Herc but a significant number of people have concerns that things are not all sweetness and light on the J. All that 'people' want from the J is a sensible progression to full Op status (which will surely come) - but not a headlong rush into oblivion. No-one wants a week or more of funerals - been there done that - not again thanks!
I sincerely apologise if I come across as arrogant but I am only taking the lead from the attitude of some (but not all) senior offs on the J side of things (at Lyn and 2 Gp) who have blatantly shunned their oppos on the K.
As i have said before - be careful out there. The J is an impressive beast. However, I am more than convinced that it will bite very hard - likle any a/c - and let's face it, most of us who have ended up on multis are not the 'sharpest knives in the drawer' - by definition. It is those who think they are, that are the arrogant ones.
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Without breaking the rules of the secret squirrel club, how does the workload on an RAF -K or -J on a tac mission compare to the MC-130 when its down in the dirt? Do their goodies help?
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Mike
The fact that you are prepared to post such vague rumours here, most of which are complete tosh, shows to me a good dose of either arrogance, ignorance or stupidity. Instead of listening to your K mates, of which the sideways-seating fraternity are willing the aircraft to fail, why don't you go over to the J side, talk to the guys and hear it from the horses' mouths - there are even plenty of trips if you so desire, but watch out - you might end up in AFG!
The fact that you are prepared to post such vague rumours here, most of which are complete tosh, shows to me a good dose of either arrogance, ignorance or stupidity. Instead of listening to your K mates, of which the sideways-seating fraternity are willing the aircraft to fail, why don't you go over to the J side, talk to the guys and hear it from the horses' mouths - there are even plenty of trips if you so desire, but watch out - you might end up in AFG!
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I have to say I am astounded by the continued assertions from MrO that somehow he seems to know best. Why is he completly ignoring the statements of fact offered by Uncle Buck, Robo, Arty, Prop, Bassett and Dutch Roll.
But what I find most puzzeling is the following from his last post:
But I must repeat that I am only stating what I have heard from around the houses/bars. Also, I must repeat that I have no axe to grind either way - I am just interested in reality and not supposition
His whole argument is based on based on supposition without an ounce of reality to it.
MrO Arty has offered you some sound advice. If your concerns are genuine get your ar@e over here and come see things first hand instead of listening and believing the views of the inebriated few.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
But what I find most puzzeling is the following from his last post:
But I must repeat that I am only stating what I have heard from around the houses/bars. Also, I must repeat that I have no axe to grind either way - I am just interested in reality and not supposition
His whole argument is based on based on supposition without an ounce of reality to it.
MrO Arty has offered you some sound advice. If your concerns are genuine get your ar@e over here and come see things first hand instead of listening and believing the views of the inebriated few.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I can't bear it any longer - this is my first post (probably last, too) but MikeR has got my goat!
As a current K bloke, it pains me to back up the J types on this thread .......but Mike R is spouting rubbish!
The J is a new ac, but its doing fine in theatre, thank you very much (barring a few tech-snags that are being quickly sorted). They are bound to be making mistakes like the K did but they are learning as quickly as well.
The crews are well protected, well trained and highly keen. Most of them are top guys/gals - some of whom worked as opsos for the K crews at the height of the ops out there and many are experienced K guys with lots of hours like you Mike! - they are not 'rushing in headlong'! As for route-queens - they get everywhere I agree, but even they start to get 'tactical' when people start shooting at them!
I, for one, am very glad the J is 'out there', cos the K crews were on our knees and we are very glad of the respite the J deployment has brought - thanks guys and keep it up! Just give us a USA route or 2?
Mike - furthermore, the JOEU have very experienced chaps doing the tac workload trials - and are a lot more thorough than you insinuate, so back off!
The truth is that from now on in, the J will get all the money and back-up while the K will fall into a gradual decline (no change there, I hear you say). The J tac clearances will come and it will get most of the kit it needs. It's a shame that the K crews are not seen as worth spending money on - as the K apparently has a very short time left in service (yeah right - about 10 years!!!!) and it is not seen as a 'good investment' - makes my blood that one - but that's a different story!
I know that all J crews would agree with me that the K has done a sterling job recently and the crews have been exceedingly brave - day and night and in the finest traditions of the Service - of course with little publicity and acclaim! I am very proud to have served alongside the chaps.
I hope the J has such a successful time 'at war' and that the crews earn their spurs! Fly safe!
MikeR - I know this is a rumour network ....but a little more research next time? Suggest you take up the offer of finding out first hand about the J - I would if I could but I suspect I've missed the boat!
As a current K bloke, it pains me to back up the J types on this thread .......but Mike R is spouting rubbish!
The J is a new ac, but its doing fine in theatre, thank you very much (barring a few tech-snags that are being quickly sorted). They are bound to be making mistakes like the K did but they are learning as quickly as well.
The crews are well protected, well trained and highly keen. Most of them are top guys/gals - some of whom worked as opsos for the K crews at the height of the ops out there and many are experienced K guys with lots of hours like you Mike! - they are not 'rushing in headlong'! As for route-queens - they get everywhere I agree, but even they start to get 'tactical' when people start shooting at them!
I, for one, am very glad the J is 'out there', cos the K crews were on our knees and we are very glad of the respite the J deployment has brought - thanks guys and keep it up! Just give us a USA route or 2?
Mike - furthermore, the JOEU have very experienced chaps doing the tac workload trials - and are a lot more thorough than you insinuate, so back off!
The truth is that from now on in, the J will get all the money and back-up while the K will fall into a gradual decline (no change there, I hear you say). The J tac clearances will come and it will get most of the kit it needs. It's a shame that the K crews are not seen as worth spending money on - as the K apparently has a very short time left in service (yeah right - about 10 years!!!!) and it is not seen as a 'good investment' - makes my blood that one - but that's a different story!
I know that all J crews would agree with me that the K has done a sterling job recently and the crews have been exceedingly brave - day and night and in the finest traditions of the Service - of course with little publicity and acclaim! I am very proud to have served alongside the chaps.
I hope the J has such a successful time 'at war' and that the crews earn their spurs! Fly safe!
MikeR - I know this is a rumour network ....but a little more research next time? Suggest you take up the offer of finding out first hand about the J - I would if I could but I suspect I've missed the boat!