Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 2nd Apr 2016, 06:46
  #2181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seat 21A
Age: 45
Posts: 31
ACW 342, fair one, in answer, no, dunno yet, no, no and yes. Time to go to work on this.
Subsunk is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 10:35
  #2182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 11 GROUP
Age: 73
Posts: 964
Thread Drift

ACW Well i have actually written several letters direct to all the top brass including the Defence Minister at his office.No reply from HQ ATC or The Minister and reply from CAS was from his PR dept stating that all was getting better and Cadets were getting flying elsewhere at present (in other words they do not really accept there is a problem).
This of course is the main problem;the organisation is in complete denial as to what is wrong and what is actually required,and as you have seen from Hon Pres 2FTS and what was GAPAN they are only now making comments and 'spinning' the official line. We have brought this out into the open (press now involved),but in the end what else do we do. As alluded before unless there is a change at the top there will be no change to what is going on,because they are not going to admit they are at a complete loss as how to run the system,or what it requires to get it back on track.
POBJOY is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 11:00
  #2183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Central Mids / North
Posts: 8
Note

Just to refer to what Beagle et al said about the PTT's. I've seen a note that says yes the initial introduction for cadets to Roll, Pitch and Yaw will be done in the PTT.... then in the aircraft.
GroundedGrob is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 14:03
  #2184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nr Ely, Cambs
Age: 57
Posts: 364
Considering booking a chat with my MP, until recently he sat on the PAC so should have a good grasp of procedures etc. Peronally feel that the taxpayer should get a sizeable refund from the contractor who caused the problem in the first place, should go someway to cover the cost of repairs?
brokenlink is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 14:21
  #2185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Somewhere in England
Posts: 173
ACW 342 Info please

ACW 342, Can you tell me the details of the Westminster Hall job, and who is going to be there, etc. ?
EnigmAviation is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 15:03
  #2186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 75' from the runway edge and 150' from the threshold
Age: 70
Posts: 164
Enigma, inlieu of my utter inability to copy the link provided by Coff, and AFTQ let me refer you to page 101 of this thread and posts 2006 and 2010. As for who might be there, my MP has said she will be there. Why don't you persuade yours to attend also
ACW342 is online now  
Old 2nd Apr 2016, 18:39
  #2187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Age: 74
Posts: 349
ATC Gliding

Throughout this sorry saga which I have watched with mounting irritation the assumption, wrong I think, that we should get back to where we were

For many years scholarships were provided at flying clubs for cadets with great success. The training met the need and was cheap. Clubs obtained reward so long as they did the job correctly and passed inspection

There are many Gliding Clubs meeting the BGA rules and offering big price reductions to the young. Borders Gliding Club (Milfield) has offered my Rotary Club an excellent deal allowing us to provide a local youngster with a Gliding Bursary up to solo

It would be interesting to examine the cost of the proposed solution and how many more youngsters could be trained to fly for the proposed budget

No doubt there would be issues of staffing and insurance but they are not insurmountable as our bursary shows. At least we would have a workable solution which would not repeat this debacle
Tinribs is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2016, 01:38
  #2188 (permalink)  
BBK
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 399
Tinribs

I believe the BGA were asked if they wanted to undertake large scale cadet gliding and declined. Nothing wrong with ad hoc local arrangements to get cadets flown but it's not "air cadet gliding" as such. As to "where we were" well that was very good system (the VGSs) that worked had it not been for failings elsewhere.

BBK
BBK is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2016, 08:58
  #2189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Somewhere in England
Posts: 173
Westmisnter Debate etc

Originally Posted by ACW342 View Post
Enigma, inlieu of my utter inability to copy the link provided by Coff, and AFTQ let me refer you to page 101 of this thread and posts 2006 and 2010. As for who might be there, my MP has said she will be there. Why don't you persuade yours to attend also
ACW 342 - thanks, I have traced it, and have now also written to my MP, given him the full 9 yards, and asked him if he can attend, as well as sending him my draft FOI questions with regard to this whole "Yes Minister" farce.


Whilst he does belong to Cameron's party, he's something of a dissident, thus not necessarily following the party line. We shall see
EnigmAviation is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2016, 18:48
  #2190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: LONDON
Posts: 107
Telegraph Letter

Verdun Luck has written on Air Cadet gliding: telegraph.co.uk letters, 3 April 2016: 'Grounded air cadets'.
ATFQ is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2016, 19:47
  #2191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 11 GROUP
Age: 73
Posts: 964
Telegraph Letter

Verdun has taken issue with Hon Pres 2FTS on three issues.

Verdun makes the point that long term cost savings and lack of performance from the MAA has caused the grounding.

He queries the statement that there has been extensive consultation with the VGS

He Also takes issue with the assertion that the new AEF will increase flying opportunities,plus points out that nothing replaces the Solo training in gliding.

Well done Verdun i think that makes is 40 love and the opponent needs a new script writer.
POBJOY is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2016, 21:28
  #2192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Teesside
Posts: 174
Link to Telegraph letter here ;
Letters: Britain?s EU membership is a far cry from its relationship with the US


and text ;
Grounded air cadets

SIR – Contrary to Sir Christopher Coville’s assertion (Letters, March 27), the grounding of the air cadet glider fleet was brought about entirely as a result of cost considerations.
The keeping of maintenance records over the past two decades fell far short of the standards required by the new (and inexperienced) Military Aviation Authority. This lack of adequate record-keeping was most assuredly caused by cost savings in the past. Identical aircraft in civil use continue to fly quite safely under civil maintenance requirements.
I would also challenge the assertion that there have been “extensive consultations between senior officers and the volunteer gliding community”. As far as I am aware, there has been very little consultation with anyone, with most information coming from unofficial internet forums.
The increased power flying opportunities that Sir Christopher refers to cannot replace air cadet gliding, where cadets are taught up to solo standard.
Verdun Luck
Former British Airways captain
High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire
David Thompson is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 05:43
  #2193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 2,882
Colville's position is typical MoD dissembling. He blames stricter rules post-Nimrod Review. What the Nimrod Review actually reiterated (not revealed) was (a) poor implementation of mandated regulations, and (b) savings at the expense of safety. I'm being kind. For "poor implementation, read "flat refusal". Why were "savings" thought necessary? Quite deliberate, astronomical waste. The MAA have so far refused to address or even acknowledge that elephant in the room. Well said Captain Luck.
tucumseh is online now  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 06:05
  #2194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,946
Don't forget it was NOT just the engineering paperwork. There was evidence of engineering malpractice as well - the FOI documents discuss the fitment of incorrect elevator hinges, without Design Authority approval, and also the use of non-approved materials. I suspect there are other examples of poor engineering practice to be cited that have not been revealed via FOI yet.

LJ
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 07:03
  #2195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 781
LJ,

There has certainly been mention of engineering issues, but it would be nice to get some detail. I seem to remember than a hinge was fitted that was subsequently approved by the DA, but happy to be corrected. Let's have some more facts.

As I've posted before, the central issue (for me) is the apparent failure of the RAF Engineering Authority to comply with basic regulations and good practice in supervising their maintenance organisation. It's a central issue because if this isn't addressed the same could (and probably will) happen with a new contract.

As Tuc has rightly pointed out, the post MAA regs are, in practice, the same as the old ones. The main change has been to move the levels of decision authority upwards by at least one rank or sometimes two. That's bad news, because engineering decisions that could be taken at the correct working level will now have to be 'staffed' for a senior officer to approve. That will add time and subtract common sense and engineering judgement. This system will not survive a shooting war.

Best regards as ever to all those working the system as best they can

Engines
Engines is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 09:32
  #2196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,224
Don't forget it was NOT just the engineering paperwork. There was evidence of engineering malpractice as well - the FOI documents discuss the fitment of incorrect elevator hinges, without Design Authority approval, and also the use of non-approved materials. I suspect there are other examples of poor engineering practice to be cited that have not been revealed via FOI yet

That one may be a bit of a red herring LJ - I believe the hinge was replaced by a standard Grob item that was superior to the non standard item which was originally fitted to the glider (uneccessary MOD modification perhaps ?)
The MOD are renown for insisting on uneccessary mods
longer ron is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 09:48
  #2197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 734
Decline and Fall?

The problem of air cadet gliding and flying may prove to be just a chapter in the book on the decline and fall of the RAF. We live in a world where many younger people associate the RAF roundel with Mod culture. Ironically we are in this mess because of MOD culture.
Bigpants is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 10:16
  #2198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: across the border....
Posts: 172
Longer Ron,
Regardless of whether the hinge was a standard Grob part (and was it a standard part for that glider or a standard part from another Grob aircraft?) from the DHAN it would suggest that implementation of that modification hadn't been through due process with the type certificate holder.

What I'd like to know is what the SO1 & SO2 Engineering, Quality Audit and Contract Management posts and Soaring (Oxford) at Syerston were doing prior to 'the pause'.


7700
squawking 7700 is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 11:03
  #2199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,224
squawking 7700
I absolutely agree with all you say but there are 'problems' and 'problems' and I am sure most people must now realise that severe cuts and changes to the gliding system are being carried out under the smokescreen of invoking the safety case.
As quite a few of us have said - Haddon Cave was many years ago and should not be blamed for findings in the last 2 years.
As with others on here I am sure the whole thing could have been handled very differently but it was an extremely convenient 'pause' for MOD whilst making savage cuts.


rgds LR
longer ron is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2016, 11:13
  #2200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: across the border....
Posts: 172
Longer Ron,
I can't believe that it was anything but purely coincidental.........


7700
squawking 7700 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.