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Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

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Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules

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Old 28th Oct 2014, 08:47
  #1721 (permalink)  
 
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As sycamore has said the TP has it correct, 30000 lbs, the narrator is incorrect. As I have mentioned before the heaviest airdrop load I ever dropped was 42000 lbs in triple ULLA. I think the 'book' max quoted load for the 'K' was 45000 lbs. I have the DVD of the TP course and when I first watched it I was surprised they were using the virtually extinct HSP for these trials. Much more telling I think would have been a double MSP or the triple ULLA.
The video is very good but like all of them it does not convey the noise, vibration and the sheer violence of a heavy drop especially a double MSP.
If there is a snag and the platform does not leave the a/c but the reefed (approx one third of their flying diameter) main parachutes do then it will be endex. Once those huge parachutes fully open then the a/c would struggle !
We used to reckon that actually the load and all the role fittings would be torn from the cargo compartment and given the forces involved it would be airborne before it reached the ramp. I am sure dragartist could flesh out this doomsday scenario rather more scientifically than I.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 09:05
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Op Vigour.
Came the day and we traveled in to Mombasa to position the a/c at Nairobi ready for the tour. Before we left Mombasa I had the first of those ground aggravations from a member of the team no less.
The doctor had sensibly brought along a med pack which was carefully stowed on the G/E's no go item out of harms way. She then produced a small box saying that it had to be kept chilled at all times. It was anti snake bite serum. Like many people she was under the (mistaken) impression the the 'K' had a proper refrigerator, a smaller version of the domestic kind which ran 24/7.
I explained the situation, that it was only an insulated box and only cool when filled with dry ice, a commodity not always available. Of course she wanted to put it in there anyway. I said no. I pointed out that there was a far greater chance of medical problems if the frozen meals were not kept chilled than the remote possibility of snakebite. I have never heard of snakebite amongst the 'K' crews at least not the type of snake we were discussing ! I was then told I would be held responsible for this act to which I readily agreed. I wrote out a chit absolving her of all responsibility and stuck the box under the para seats.
So off we went to Niarobi.



Typical dusty departure from one of the strips.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 09:07
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AA62,

Your description of heavy drop extraction, and the possible ramifications of a load jamming don't bear thinking about. I'm sure there must have been a few close shaves during its career. I must say that my impression of the dynamics of it was that once deployed the chutes simply stopped forward movement of the load, allowing the aircraft to "fly away". With some forward momentum that would put the load "speed over the ramp" at roughly the flying speed of the aircraft. 0 - 100 plus in the length of the freight bay, and 42K at that. As I've said previously, as a GE I rarely saw any real dropping, it's good to get an insight into it now.

Smudge
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 09:17
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AA62 ...

Seeing the HF washing-line aerial in the above pic and knowing of your other interests ... were 'on the ground' HF comms effective with Architect from places like Africa or was there more reliance on land line based Comms to contact UK Ops ?
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 10:11
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HSP

The heaviest "HSP" I was involved with despatching was a Muirhill Tractor, an earth moving bulldozer and we were at maximum permissible drop load.
I was on JATE at the time and at Larkhill DZ the brief was that in the event of the extractor chute not deploying we would avoid all built up areas on the way to Boscombe and in the event of a jammed load we would attempt to crash straight ahead. The prospect of 5 x 60ft chutes fully deployed out the rear were deemed too much drag to stay airborne in that configuration. The Loadie, the diminutive M*** Mc*** volunteered to dress aft and cut the risers and admitted that it would just give him something to do before we and Black Ball Firs became close acquaintances.
The drop sequence was the longest 25 seconds of my life as my "green On" ADS switch went across and the Loadie said "Extractor Release".
There then followed a pause which still causes sweaty palms as I recall the effects of the deploying main chutes.
The captain started pushing the controls forward to counter the increasing nose up attitude as the copilot started advancing the throttles to counter the increasing loss of airspeed. Life seemed to slow down as both pilots hands were now against the dials at max power and full nose down before the Loadie's slightly squeaky voice said "Load Moving"
There followed a surreal interlude of "Load Gone", nose up, power back, recover control, height, attitude and situation awareness when the Eng. said, "I think you overtorqued No1."
Life speeded up again. My green light was still on where I left it and the captain declared that all his constipation problems were now solved.
On our return the Air Portability section were advised that if they wanted that thing in theatre they should send it by Fred. Olsen Lines.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 10:56
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The US Navy's C-130G, which has "increased structural strength allowing higher gross weight operation", has the following payload limits according to the SAC, which can be found on page 5 here: http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/c-130.pdf

Design Maximum Payload: 34,965 lb
Maximum Payload Overload: 45,000 lb
Payload with Design Maximum fuel: 19,373 lb.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 11:11
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HF Comms

Coff, the washing line was indeed effective both on the ground and in the air. I think we had the most effective HF amongst the AT Force because of its crudity. I well remember one dark and stormy night trying to get hold of Architect as we departed Gander. No answer was the stern reply but after 2 or 3 attempts Gan offered help - as clear as if he was sitting in the other pilot's seat. What I was after was some UK forecasts and within moments Gan provided them as if such requests were his normal traffic.

More Imoor tangly: you may recall that telephones at Mount Pleasant were in short supply for calls home. We on 1312 used to call Portishead Radio from the parking stand. Transfer charge call and communication with SWMBO was clear and simple - even with out Architects annoying "over" at the end of each bit of conversation.

My other memory comes from one of the Belize reinforcement ops. I had operated the route re-activation flight (spare crews for the slip) after Christmas and should have been back for New Year. However, my Eng went sick in Nassau and, instead, we drew the short straw to operate the one that departed for LYE late afternoon on 31 Dec. Shortly after passing overhead Bermuda and once safely back in the Oceanic, by now past midnight UK, I called Architect to see if the spirit of the season prevailed. "Any chance of a transfer charge call to 06........ As its New Year" no problem and seconds later there she was on the line, again clear as a bell.

Mind you, even with the washing lines, night Comms were a bit of a black art rather than the scientific process implied by the En-route Supplements. The other game that could be quite fun was to join in the trucker CB conversations over in the States. A trucker's CB has a power output of diddly squat whereas ours was some 30 watts (if I remember correctly). Our transmissions just about bounced them out of their cabs.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 15:34
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CB in the States

I believe that there were reports in the States at different times of CB sets getting fried because of overload from someone transmitting with far more power than the regs allowed, I wonder who that could have been!
Going back to some earlier threads smudge commented on our SAGE, not realising that he was at one time just a common or garden AGE, I was at Thorney with E...... B..... , he a SAC Lecky, me a J/T Sooty in 68 when Albert arrived and I marshalled the first one onto the Farms dispersal, ( my first aircraft to marshall after training, no pressure ) and we then next met as we joined the G,E's course at Lyneham in 77 and travelled the world together, including Rhodesia where we shared a room in the Kentucky hotel, my crew being Neil Stewart, a Co who was our first casualty of the Det by diving into the pool at the NEW Years do at the residence of the boss of the Rhodesian Air Force and doing an ear drum in and went by the initials of C F and had something to do with SF over the years, Nav was Paddy Long, Eng was Jim Chick and the loady was no less than that ultimate loady , say his name with pride, Pete Tyass.
And talking of bullet holes in Hercs we got one at Sarajevo while flying in from Zagreb on the UNHCR part of the do and can anybody remember who was the crew on the aircraft that had a round in an outboard tank on the way into Gatow many years ago, I knew the Eng and I think it was P... K...... on 30?
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 15:50
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Coffman,
you have anticipated part of my Op Vigour tale with your query ref the HF comms ! It will be along in due course.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 15:50
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Many thanks Xercules ...

You can't beat a good Long Wire properly tuned and excited by some healthy Wiggly Watts
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 15:53
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Sorry AA62 ... humble apologies old chap ... I'll consider myself duly 'earthed'
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 16:07
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Dougie,
a very nice account of an HSP drop. Time certainly was relative as Einstein said. When I first started dropping everything seemed such a rush. By the time I finished I seemed to have the capacity to see each stage of the proceedings as they unfolded. According to my log book my largest HSP drop was a 'grader' at 35000lbs. Heavy drop trials could at times seem to need a little help from 'upstairs' as is the nature of trials they were always on the edge.!
As for the ALM going aft to cut the risers IMHO he would never have got there.
Once those main chutes deployed (10 secs I think but hopefully dragartist can help here) I think the inside of the a/c would have been opened up like a sardine can. If he had got there his survival knife would have made no impact on those very thick risers. On ULLA drops we carried a fearsome 'homemade '(in the JATE Workshop) saw of a knife to just cut through one riser.
As smudge says it is a wonder we at the coal face did not have more problems especially in light of what I have learned from dragartist, who hopefully will be along soon to explain. Ignorance for the crews was certainly bliss !
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 18:21
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Most reliable for HF comms and phone patches was Portishead, followed later on by Stockholm radio.

When our cutting-edge Artichoke couldn't hear us/speak to us, we'd call Portishead who asked roughly whereabouts in the world we were - turn their aerial array and Bob's your Dad's brother it worked . . .

It was also fun listening to Chaz Fink talking on the CB channels . . . (which of course NEVER happened).
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 20:42
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Between you all you have this heavy drop doomsday scenario about right. the system was complex with a number of safety features built in. some depended upon the correct grade of copper shear wire being fitted which either was designed to break to sequence things or designed to break to make things safe or arm the EPERU (mechanical no wiggly amps or sqibs like you had on the early boat systems. And being used on A400M I believe). Every bit of rigging was safety critical.


We had issues with envelope, issues with CoG within the envelope. bits being so close to their ultimate strength (the JATE 40" Strop). Several lifed components, some of which should have been single use and became so in my time. The TROC which AA62 previously described issues over extensions with stretched aircraft. (HSP did not use the TROC)


I am pleased the usage rate went down to a few a year in latter times. having studied the MALDROP rates we almost had a MALDROP of some form during every drop. some were minor but gave an indication of the state of things. Turn this on its head. if the system had been used more frequently I wonder if due to better training the failures would have reduced. I continue to have that debate with myself as well as re running the FMEACA over and over in my dreams.


Skydel was more appropriate to airdrop than the dash 4a used by our cousins over the pond and on our Js. The bending moments on some of the beams did not have much of a reserve factor left with some of the heavier loads. Getting the message across about overturning moments due to a high vertical CoG with stacked landrovers and howitzers under Pinz. was a difficult task. I resorted to a wooden model and elastic bands made in my garage. I don't think - I know AA62 is correct about it leaving the aircraft prior to anyone cutting any risers with the J knife on the pole.


I am surprised that none of the JATE MSP/ULLA Maldrop video has made it into the public domain. Most of it was on VHS. Boscombe would have had similar on 16mm film. From Mid 2000s 47 were equipped with handheld video recorders to record every single drop. The RAF Photog Union must have been up in arms.


In summary. Doing it so close to the ground with bog off parachutes out the back did not give much time to react if things went tits up.


I always did as the ALM asked and stayed at 245 stood up on the seats fearful of being whipped by a flailing TROC. Not much space for supernumerary observers on a double MSP on a Mk1. Less so on a double PURIBAD with troops. Its much safer to watch from the DZ through a bloody big telescope or wait to see the recording a few days later.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 00:03
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Gopher01,

Blimey, I never realised how aged you really were ! Suitable doffing of cap sir. As for HF, I enjoyed many free conversations with "the lady of my loft" whilst undertaking HF tests on the ground from Dulles, Cairo, Bahrain, and once managed a Beatles job (Hello Goodbye) from the pan Mount Pleasant. All aided by the latest propagation charts (we're they called that?). No doubt, all down to "skip wave"? Or bounce . The pinnacle of home calls had to be a call from overhead the pyramids, SWMBO wouldn't believe where I was. Brian May has spotted the best source for ground access to free home calls though, Portishead, Architect tended to be more formal IMHOP.

Smudge
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 01:00
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Smudge, we used to hang off the RAFA club bar together. I sat in the centre seat. On Christmas Day 1984 our whole crew got a "free" call back home from Ethiopia as Archpest had agreed to swing the aerials for us. We were on our way back from Alamata strip and looking forward to dinner at the British Embassy where the Ambassador plied us all with strong drink in an attempt to keep us away from his two very pleasant daughters. Little did he know of the bordello that was going on in his compound buildings. Happy Days.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 08:04
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We positioned at Nairobi to await the VIP party. I had some experience of MPs, civil servants and the like and many of them had a puffed up sense of their own importance. So it was a very pleasant surprise when Baroness Chalker and her team arrived. They were pleasant affable and understood the problems we faced with the a/c. They appreciated the effort that had been made to try to turn our rather secondhand 'Workules' into a VIP transport. The lady was very sensibly dressed as you will see and declined the offer of a Beverley seat in the cargo compartment. Instead she traveled on the flight deck for the whole trip.
One of the media lot insisted on sitting on a para seat underneath the Utility hydraulic system despite my telling him it was the worst possible place. This was the same chap who would insist on walking through the (stationary) props until one day he got too close to the exhaust of the GTC. Although he was not burned the shock seemed to instill a little common sense into him.

No doubt some of you may recognise some of the team here.

Off we went to Wajir to offload our small load of relief supplies and the minister could see how her department's money was being spent and talk to aid workers.


Take off from one of the strips.
Then it was back to Nairobi for a night stop.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 08:16
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I have posted this pic before but it is worth looking at again in the light of dragartist's comments about vertical c of g of the load etc.
The 'war load' MSPs were even worse as you could hardly see the main load for the wall of jerry cans ammo boxes and the like.
A problem when dropping double MSP loads was that the speed of the first load out would often cause the HD rollers at the rear to jam. The following load would then cut flats in the jammed rollers as it passed over them ! More work for the overworked role equippers.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 09:50
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Morning all ...

probably a naff question from me ... but I'll ask it anyway

On reading AA62 and Drag's account of the tech challenges/risks (potential loss of aircraft) with a max load drop ... was any thought given to fitting explosive bolts between the anchor points and the fastenings designed to shear or brake as the load exited ? That way the LM with, say, a handheld pulse detonation trigger could save a potential catastrophe ? I'm thinking along the lines of the explosive bolts that held the upturned fruit bowl of a canopy on the Canberra ... or even some MDC ? Clearly sequencing would be critical ... as it was on the Canberra ... so possibly not an insurmountable problem. To be clear, I'm only suggesting 'detonation' as a last resort in an emergency.

I understand our man Drag is otherwise deployed over the next 48 Hrs ... so his comments might be along a little later

Best ...

Coff.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 10:41
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Coff,
you have to remember that the disconnects on the parachutes etc were all pneumatic and clockwork , to introduce anything explosive would have caused alarm amongst the powers that be . Couldn't possibly allow the loadmaster to have control of something that went bnag! many a happy time spent following through on the ads handle as a backup fpr the co forgetting to press the chute release button. Also pulling the EPERU handle and being left with a hanful of handle and frayed wire (it had operated correctly though) just broke afetr doing its job.
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