Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
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I've a video of a day ULLA drop at Keevil of fuel cells. Load prepared and dropped level at about 12 feet but the load nosed in and disintegrated in front of an audience of VIPs. Turned out the c of g calculations were done for Jet A-1 but with the dummy load being water it made them wildly inaccurate. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it........ 
From recollection I think 130 knots but it's a while ago ! That's way above stalling speed before release and even further above stalling speed once the 15 tons has vacated the freight bay !
From recollection I think 130 knots but it's a while ago ! That's way above stalling speed before release and even further above stalling speed once the 15 tons has vacated the freight bay !
Thanks for that Stretchwell, it looks like there was a good margin of safety there with respect to stalling speed. Perhaps whoever calculated the release of that particular load needed a course in wine or beer making, they may have understood specific gravity then
Smudge
Smudge
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Gents ... If you need any encouragement from me, as the starter of this thread ... please do continue with your pics and tails of Air Dropping from Albert ... it truly is fascinating stuff
Chickenlover,
yes it could indeed be three linked loads as my log book testifies. As I mentioned in a previous thread 'kissing the DZ ' was not that unusual when dropping the three. We used to drop ULLA at South Cerney, not exactly the largest DZ. To do this we needed to stop the traffic on the road. Initially the police were very resistant to this idea. Then we took the Traffic Super with us on a drop. Like anyone else who sees ULLA or any heavy drop for the first time when we landed his eyes were the size of dinner plates and he was temporarily bereft of speech. No problems with stopping the traffic after that. But dropping at South Cerney in the winter could be interesting as the load skidded across the frozen grass and take ages to stop.
I was the ALM on the famous high level ULLA drop on Knighton Down on the plain. When dropping ULLA we used to stream a drogue on the descent into the DZ. The captain did the flying, the co the power and the eng did the switching for the drop. The drogue then used to pull the main parachutes (modified Vulcan brake chutes) of the ramp and load was extracted at high speed. On this drop the drogue was streamed and almost immediately the load (triple ULLA) went walkabout. I called 'load moving' to an incredulous captain but he could already feel the trim changes. As the load went I scampered to the ramp in time to see a large plume of spray rise vertically in the air as our load of jerry cans of water disintegrated. Lovely sight !
We did high level para that same day in the afternoon and you could easily see the scar on Knighton Down.
So what went wrong ? Initial suspicions were directed at the Eng as he did the switching for the drop. He was very experienced and adamant that he had not touched anything. The cause was soon found. When the drogue is streamed a device between it and the main parachutes only operates when the eng does his switchery bit. Then the drogue pulls the main chute off the ramp and the load exits. In this case the 'Y' shaped connecting yoke had had snapped allowing the drogue to operate on the main chutes irrespective of any switching. We later found out that it (and others) had been incorrectly manufactured, something that could not be detected when it entered the supply chain.
ULLA was never used by the standard 'K' squadrons although that had been the original intention, as the flying hours needed for training could not be funded. However all the a/c were modded as if ULLA was to be in universal use.
yes it could indeed be three linked loads as my log book testifies. As I mentioned in a previous thread 'kissing the DZ ' was not that unusual when dropping the three. We used to drop ULLA at South Cerney, not exactly the largest DZ. To do this we needed to stop the traffic on the road. Initially the police were very resistant to this idea. Then we took the Traffic Super with us on a drop. Like anyone else who sees ULLA or any heavy drop for the first time when we landed his eyes were the size of dinner plates and he was temporarily bereft of speech. No problems with stopping the traffic after that. But dropping at South Cerney in the winter could be interesting as the load skidded across the frozen grass and take ages to stop.
I was the ALM on the famous high level ULLA drop on Knighton Down on the plain. When dropping ULLA we used to stream a drogue on the descent into the DZ. The captain did the flying, the co the power and the eng did the switching for the drop. The drogue then used to pull the main parachutes (modified Vulcan brake chutes) of the ramp and load was extracted at high speed. On this drop the drogue was streamed and almost immediately the load (triple ULLA) went walkabout. I called 'load moving' to an incredulous captain but he could already feel the trim changes. As the load went I scampered to the ramp in time to see a large plume of spray rise vertically in the air as our load of jerry cans of water disintegrated. Lovely sight !
We did high level para that same day in the afternoon and you could easily see the scar on Knighton Down.
So what went wrong ? Initial suspicions were directed at the Eng as he did the switching for the drop. He was very experienced and adamant that he had not touched anything. The cause was soon found. When the drogue is streamed a device between it and the main parachutes only operates when the eng does his switchery bit. Then the drogue pulls the main chute off the ramp and the load exits. In this case the 'Y' shaped connecting yoke had had snapped allowing the drogue to operate on the main chutes irrespective of any switching. We later found out that it (and others) had been incorrectly manufactured, something that could not be detected when it entered the supply chain.
ULLA was never used by the standard 'K' squadrons although that had been the original intention, as the flying hours needed for training could not be funded. However all the a/c were modded as if ULLA was to be in universal use.
Stretchwell,
I take it your 'fuel cell' drop was of the APFC (air portable fuel container). We used to drop them also filled with water and I do not remember any problems. But !
I take it your 'fuel cell' drop was of the APFC (air portable fuel container). We used to drop them also filled with water and I do not remember any problems. But !
Airdrop pic of the day. High frame MSP with almost a full war load at the point of exit. Full war load and you could not see the vehicles for the 'wall' of stores. We could drop two of these from the 'K'. A maximum of 18000 lbs each although there were one or two overload clearances. In the high point of airdrop we could drop vehicles, bridging equipment and all manner of things.
You can clearly see the anti swing chute on the at the front of the load. Note how close the MSP is to the cargo door ! The twin bomb racks which held the extractor chute can also be seen. Very tricky to load these high loads especially when the RAF Condecs (transfer loader) became old and difficult for even the best Condec operator to finesse accurately.
If anyone is interested I can dig into my memory bank and relate the sequence of events of one of these drops.
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Hi AA62. Agreed ! Water was always used on dummy drops when no fuel needed by the end user...... That's fine as long as the calculations are based on water. I'm no weight and balance expert but that was the explanation given and I was happy to accept ! ;-) I got JATE to look at the video and the drop profile was deemed fine....... I will try and find that video.
Last edited by Stretchwell; 3rd Jul 2014 at 11:20.
Smudge.
Whilst I was at JATE, I was the ALM on the drop where the MSP (high frame) clipped the 'ducksbill' as it left the a/c. What happened was that the wire transfer release cable was about 6 ft too short so causing the platform to rotate before it was clear of the a/c ! (if anyone is interested I will explain) We were experimenting with these wire cables wrapped in a plastic sheath as we had instances of them cutting into the parachute risers. The plastic should cut down on the whip effect and also blunt the wire cable. As usual with trials some bits were made in house. This cable was made in the JATE workshops by a civilian who for reasons never explained made it too short although marked as correct. His union told him not to testify at the Inquiry so he did not. Not the first nor the last time that this situation has occurred in other parts of the RAF ! All the other cables he made were correct. If the cable had been much shorter you would not be reading this.
The Inquiry found that this was the cause of the incident and sent the report 'up the line'. It bounced back with what was a virtual demand to find some service personnel culpable. The President of the Inquiry sent it back exactly as before effectively challenging the system to reconvene the board from scratch. It backed down and accepted the findings.
Whilst I was at JATE, I was the ALM on the drop where the MSP (high frame) clipped the 'ducksbill' as it left the a/c. What happened was that the wire transfer release cable was about 6 ft too short so causing the platform to rotate before it was clear of the a/c ! (if anyone is interested I will explain) We were experimenting with these wire cables wrapped in a plastic sheath as we had instances of them cutting into the parachute risers. The plastic should cut down on the whip effect and also blunt the wire cable. As usual with trials some bits were made in house. This cable was made in the JATE workshops by a civilian who for reasons never explained made it too short although marked as correct. His union told him not to testify at the Inquiry so he did not. Not the first nor the last time that this situation has occurred in other parts of the RAF ! All the other cables he made were correct. If the cable had been much shorter you would not be reading this.
The Inquiry found that this was the cause of the incident and sent the report 'up the line'. It bounced back with what was a virtual demand to find some service personnel culpable. The President of the Inquiry sent it back exactly as before effectively challenging the system to reconvene the board from scratch. It backed down and accepted the findings.
Smudge,
One particular 'problem child' was the RIB (rigid inflatable boat) as used by the SBS and others. It seemed that every drop would produce a new incident. Perhaps we have someone around who could recount the tale of the Maggie Maldrop' !
This is the RIB as I always seem to remember it ! It should of course be descending gently in the horizontal plane not performing 'Stuka arrival one !
One particular 'problem child' was the RIB (rigid inflatable boat) as used by the SBS and others. It seemed that every drop would produce a new incident. Perhaps we have someone around who could recount the tale of the Maggie Maldrop' !
This is the RIB as I always seem to remember it ! It should of course be descending gently in the horizontal plane not performing 'Stuka arrival one !
For airdrop minimum speeds, it was usually the greater of 125 kts IAS or 1.25 Vstall for cargo. ULLA and freedrop (15 (Ethiopia) -50 feet (routine)) was done with gear down...saved the day in Ethiopia on a couple of occasions with inadvertant touchdowns on uneven DZs - Rabel from memory.
The touchdown relay prevented timely ULLA extraction on at least one occasion. The spotters who remember BANGGEARO will remember why...(think it was 2 Gs...GTC door and Gnd Stop switch made live....)
For para, it was 115kts-130kts, limited by 1.2 Vstall and of course the parachute RTSs
The incident with the flattened Jeep was fairly well-documented...and the pic/piece of windscreen placed just to the left of the bar in STF. I believe the nav was a rather bouffant Dougie M***sh, who (I think) , coincidentally was also involved with the Maggie/grey funnel line incident on the South Coast.
The skipper of that one was, again dragged from memory, Henry P***le, who went on to fly Wessex in a 'spirited manner'....
Served on STF (FKA STS) for a while......best time I had in the Mob - great bunch of blokes and hugely satifying flying.
AA62's incident with the high frame MSP reminds me of the 47 crew who forgot to confirm the 15 ft extension to the transfer release cable was in place prior to a drop from a Mk3 (same basic cable for the Mk1 and 3, but clearly the extra length needed for the stretched version)....Slug was the skipper (I'll leave the Loadie's name off to spare his blushes) from memory..... Similar ducksbill interface issue....
I was following directly behind.
The touchdown relay prevented timely ULLA extraction on at least one occasion. The spotters who remember BANGGEARO will remember why...(think it was 2 Gs...GTC door and Gnd Stop switch made live....)
For para, it was 115kts-130kts, limited by 1.2 Vstall and of course the parachute RTSs
The incident with the flattened Jeep was fairly well-documented...and the pic/piece of windscreen placed just to the left of the bar in STF. I believe the nav was a rather bouffant Dougie M***sh, who (I think) , coincidentally was also involved with the Maggie/grey funnel line incident on the South Coast.
The skipper of that one was, again dragged from memory, Henry P***le, who went on to fly Wessex in a 'spirited manner'....
Served on STF (FKA STS) for a while......best time I had in the Mob - great bunch of blokes and hugely satifying flying.
AA62's incident with the high frame MSP reminds me of the 47 crew who forgot to confirm the 15 ft extension to the transfer release cable was in place prior to a drop from a Mk3 (same basic cable for the Mk1 and 3, but clearly the extra length needed for the stretched version)....Slug was the skipper (I'll leave the Loadie's name off to spare his blushes) from memory..... Similar ducksbill interface issue....
I was following directly behind.
AA62,
Yep, well remember the RIB, although, only as freight. I never saw one go "out the back", and that one in your picture probably wouldn't survive to do so again either.
Bunta130,
Lots of info to think about there, thanks for that. I never did Ethiopia, so missed all the fun you seem to have had dropping there.
Smudge
Yep, well remember the RIB, although, only as freight. I never saw one go "out the back", and that one in your picture probably wouldn't survive to do so again either.
Bunta130,
Lots of info to think about there, thanks for that. I never did Ethiopia, so missed all the fun you seem to have had dropping there.
Smudge
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Somebody please sign DM up to this site if he isn't already -He's in most of the good ascoteering stories ( and the Maggie/Grey Funnel Line one is one of the best)
Saw him the other day, still flying Hercs and still making stories
Bunta, did we go to Biggin Hill together ?
Saw him the other day, still flying Hercs and still making stories
Bunta, did we go to Biggin Hill together ?
Bunta130,
ref the 15 ft txfer release extension trip. If we are talking the same trip I was the President of the inquiry for that one ! We had been banging on for years to have a cable of the correct length made for the 'stretch' as it was an incident waiting to happen. Even after the Inquiry and our recommendations nothing was done. These SIs at least in my time were only about allocating blame and not about rectifying issues like this. Also the 'system' could not distinguish between an honest mistake made trying to get the job done and negligence per se. The definition of negligence always tied the Inquiry's hands.
ref the 15 ft txfer release extension trip. If we are talking the same trip I was the President of the inquiry for that one ! We had been banging on for years to have a cable of the correct length made for the 'stretch' as it was an incident waiting to happen. Even after the Inquiry and our recommendations nothing was done. These SIs at least in my time were only about allocating blame and not about rectifying issues like this. Also the 'system' could not distinguish between an honest mistake made trying to get the job done and negligence per se. The definition of negligence always tied the Inquiry's hands.
AA62
Pretty sure that was the one....must have been around 1988/89. I've PM'd you to 'out' the loadie...
Chickenlover
Maybe.....are you MB?
Cheers
You will note that it takes something special to make me post.....34 times in 12 years so far. This thread is absolutely great.....much better than the usual whinging tripe.......
Pretty sure that was the one....must have been around 1988/89. I've PM'd you to 'out' the loadie...
Chickenlover
Maybe.....are you MB?
Cheers
You will note that it takes something special to make me post.....34 times in 12 years so far. This thread is absolutely great.....much better than the usual whinging tripe.......
I remember this as one of the more interesting loads we carried in the 'Cave of Wonders' aft of FS245. Would have made for one heck of a narrowboat holiday on the Kennet and Avon canal.
Henry P****e
We lost Henry P****e for three days , beard and all, when we took a power plant out to El Centro for JATE who had broken their frame. They borrowed ours while their engine change was carried out and booked us into the nearest accommodation in a westerly direction, San Diego. On arrival at the Best Western Henry went up to his room, changed into civvies, said see you in three days time and disappeared out and we believe over the border to Mexico. Three days later crew assemble for departure to be greeted by Henry raring to go in the foyer.
That was the same trip we found a bar in San Diego, The Winston Churchill, with Red Barrell on draught, that shows you how long ago that was, run by a Malt who thought the RAF was the bees knees, he had lived just outside Luqa, and it didn't cost a dollar all night, a very nice man.
That was the same trip we found a bar in San Diego, The Winston Churchill, with Red Barrell on draught, that shows you how long ago that was, run by a Malt who thought the RAF was the bees knees, he had lived just outside Luqa, and it didn't cost a dollar all night, a very nice man.
Mal Drop,
Serious tackle that boat mate, I know at least one ex B line FS I/C GEs who would have loved to have given it a drive on the Kennett and Avon.
Gopher,
I bet the red Barrel was good, but did your landlord offer Cisk or Hop Leaf as alternates ? Sounds like a good trip to me though.
Smudge
Serious tackle that boat mate, I know at least one ex B line FS I/C GEs who would have loved to have given it a drive on the Kennett and Avon.
Gopher,
I bet the red Barrel was good, but did your landlord offer Cisk or Hop Leaf as alternates ? Sounds like a good trip to me though.
Smudge
Kuwait smoke
I have tucked away somewhere video taken by BBC Bristol and Central South from flights through the smoke on the way into K.C. during GW1. I managed to appear in both but as I wasn't in the UK when they were transmitted still being in Bahrain, both companies very kindly put their programme onto the same tape for me when I got home. The BBC programme was quite interesting as the presenter wanted some footage of him on the ramp, ramp open, as we transited the smoke on the way to K.C. so the captain obliged with everybody duly harnessed up. We started with the presenter about three feet from the ramp edge and the cameraman at the hinge line but the cameraman couldn't see the presenter through the smoke coming back in over the ramp, in the end he was about eight feet from the guy before he could get him on camera. The presenter complained about this until we reminded him that the guys up front were flying the aircraft with this visibility at which he went very quiet!
At the time we were doing this little job we had four Hercs in the smoke all making very sure that they were telling everybody else what height they were at and what their heading was, apart from Snoopy who was stooging around on top sampling whatever it was they sampled.
The most worrying bit though was being the first aircraft into Ali Al Salem and being told not to go off the runway as they hadn't checked anywhere else for mines and flying over the HASs, very similar to the ones I had hidden in in Germany and seeing them blown open by the latest munitions, made you wonder why we bothered with them!
At the time we were doing this little job we had four Hercs in the smoke all making very sure that they were telling everybody else what height they were at and what their heading was, apart from Snoopy who was stooging around on top sampling whatever it was they sampled.
The most worrying bit though was being the first aircraft into Ali Al Salem and being told not to go off the runway as they hadn't checked anywhere else for mines and flying over the HASs, very similar to the ones I had hidden in in Germany and seeing them blown open by the latest munitions, made you wonder why we bothered with them!