Aircrew Holdies - Length of Hold
Bismark - Spot on
Previous without naming - what part of being a civilian, and being ex services, precludes you from the long list you wrote. I had private health as part of my job, Almost every hotel had a really good Gym. My house is now in the Home Counties instead of the wilds of the Moray Firth. Your posts are ignoring so many facts of life its quite sad. This younger man, Wannabee, (I don't know his age) is bouncing along on the bottom rung in spite of having a degree. He is probably not allowed in the SNCO's mess or accomodation, his income is probably derisory in todays terms, and he is talking about resettlement courses beore ever getting anywhere near the generic WSOp course let alone squadron service.
In my short regular service career I saw time on a Shackleton and then 3 Nimrod Squadrons and left again by the time I was 28yrs old. The writing was on the wall - in the form of SROs and I saw countless people - good people - being sent on resettlement prior to being discharged the service. Many of these guys didn't want to leave and were in their mid thirties with homes in the area, children at local school and mortgages to service. One or two of the wives just up sticks and said farewell to the eternal mediocrity of being a knockers wife. They saw the same writing. This was in the mid 70s and I saw four squadrons fold and the resultant bulge of Siggies and AEOps had to be absorbed somewhere or got rid of.
If Wannabee has the chance to get a foot on the bottom rung of a new ladder and make a new career somewhere else, signing out the keys to the gym and living in a barrack block and trying to do short courses here and there is no way forward.
He has to take risks and move quickly or accept his life is doomed to going nowhere.
The next review will probably dump him anyway in spite of his misplaced loyalty to his employer.
Previous without naming - what part of being a civilian, and being ex services, precludes you from the long list you wrote. I had private health as part of my job, Almost every hotel had a really good Gym. My house is now in the Home Counties instead of the wilds of the Moray Firth. Your posts are ignoring so many facts of life its quite sad. This younger man, Wannabee, (I don't know his age) is bouncing along on the bottom rung in spite of having a degree. He is probably not allowed in the SNCO's mess or accomodation, his income is probably derisory in todays terms, and he is talking about resettlement courses beore ever getting anywhere near the generic WSOp course let alone squadron service.
In my short regular service career I saw time on a Shackleton and then 3 Nimrod Squadrons and left again by the time I was 28yrs old. The writing was on the wall - in the form of SROs and I saw countless people - good people - being sent on resettlement prior to being discharged the service. Many of these guys didn't want to leave and were in their mid thirties with homes in the area, children at local school and mortgages to service. One or two of the wives just up sticks and said farewell to the eternal mediocrity of being a knockers wife. They saw the same writing. This was in the mid 70s and I saw four squadrons fold and the resultant bulge of Siggies and AEOps had to be absorbed somewhere or got rid of.
If Wannabee has the chance to get a foot on the bottom rung of a new ladder and make a new career somewhere else, signing out the keys to the gym and living in a barrack block and trying to do short courses here and there is no way forward.
He has to take risks and move quickly or accept his life is doomed to going nowhere.
The next review will probably dump him anyway in spite of his misplaced loyalty to his employer.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bismark, ref the recruiting plug, I thought back in the late 80s that the tap appeared to be too open.
The nav school annual output was around 100. The nav school staff strength was around 90. Many of the staff would have given their eye teeth to get back on a squadron (one did and he was 50 - it was conditional that he didn't 'waste' money on an OCU and got up to speed back on his sqn).
Was our training pipeline over bloated with too many in Training Command and OCUs with a consequent churn of experience out of the sqns?
The nav school annual output was around 100. The nav school staff strength was around 90. Many of the staff would have given their eye teeth to get back on a squadron (one did and he was 50 - it was conditional that he didn't 'waste' money on an OCU and got up to speed back on his sqn).
Was our training pipeline over bloated with too many in Training Command and OCUs with a consequent churn of experience out of the sqns?
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Pontious, not sure about the 80s but more recently (last 10-15 years) the RAF pipeline has been over capacity against the requirement and also pretty inefficient. Generally, the RN system has been much more efficient, with holdovers occurring due to either programme upgrades or poor IIS of new aircraft types (vide Merlin Mk1). The efficiency of the RN fast jet selection process is to be admired - identifying the "few" had to be as efficient as possible from the relatively small input per year of potential RN pilots.
Of course the RN has been able to send its holdovers to sea to get qualified to drive ships as well, so at the end of the pipeline some are well qualified to challenge for the top in the RN ( ship command still the driving feature of a First Sea Lord). However, holding over a 24 yr old for more than a couple of years is ridiculous and it is better to redund and recruit younger blood in this sort of case.
It would be interesting to know what the average age of gaining CR status is of current RAF aircrew( and predictions for the next 5 years (due to a zero recruiting policy)).
Of course the RN has been able to send its holdovers to sea to get qualified to drive ships as well, so at the end of the pipeline some are well qualified to challenge for the top in the RN ( ship command still the driving feature of a First Sea Lord). However, holding over a 24 yr old for more than a couple of years is ridiculous and it is better to redund and recruit younger blood in this sort of case.
It would be interesting to know what the average age of gaining CR status is of current RAF aircrew( and predictions for the next 5 years (due to a zero recruiting policy)).
Last edited by Bismark; 16th May 2013 at 13:12.
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You seem to be giving 100% commitment to your employer, but not getting much more than 40% back.
Which part of the equation do you not understand? Leave and join an employer who will give you opportunities.
Which part of the equation do you not understand? Leave and join an employer who will give you opportunities.
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Bismarck wrote - The RAF should have dismissed the majority of the pipeline and kept the recruiting open, albeit only a trickle.
This is where you've got it so wrong - the RAF wanted to streamline the holding WSOps (there as a result of SDSR). It was the spineless politicians who didn't want to face more criticism following redundancies and a reduction of the pilot pipeline. I know this is a rumour site - but at least try to get close to the truth.......
This is where you've got it so wrong - the RAF wanted to streamline the holding WSOps (there as a result of SDSR). It was the spineless politicians who didn't want to face more criticism following redundancies and a reduction of the pilot pipeline. I know this is a rumour site - but at least try to get close to the truth.......
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We were told about 3-4 days into our A squadron course that there was a damn good chance that most of us would be made redundant at the end of the course; it'd be a similar reselection process that the pilots faced, with a pay-off and a "Thanks anyway".
As globefan rightly says, it was the fallout that came about from the pilot chop that stopped that redundancy happening. Truth be told, when compared to what we have to look forward to now, I would much rather have taken a redundancy; I could have gone and got other qualifications elsewhere - it would have set me up nicely to train as a commercial diver for example.
I wonder what there would be more outcry over; a bunch of young guys and girls getting shown the door with a cheque in hand by the RAF (again), or the RAF paying guys a (relatively) large amount of money, who are of little use to the service and having to wait sometimes 8 years before they can start their very short operational career?
Lots of people seem to forget that most if not all of the pilots who were culled back in 2011 landed on their feet with careers in the commercial industry.
As globefan rightly says, it was the fallout that came about from the pilot chop that stopped that redundancy happening. Truth be told, when compared to what we have to look forward to now, I would much rather have taken a redundancy; I could have gone and got other qualifications elsewhere - it would have set me up nicely to train as a commercial diver for example.
I wonder what there would be more outcry over; a bunch of young guys and girls getting shown the door with a cheque in hand by the RAF (again), or the RAF paying guys a (relatively) large amount of money, who are of little use to the service and having to wait sometimes 8 years before they can start their very short operational career?
Lots of people seem to forget that most if not all of the pilots who were culled back in 2011 landed on their feet with careers in the commercial industry.
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Wanabee,
I find it difficult to believe this snafu was a political decision. It would have been fairly easy to convince a minister that the best way forward ( based on previous experience in the early 90s etc) is that it is better to chop and maintain a recruiting flow than to retain and stop recruiting. It is also cheaper in the medium term. I only observe the pilot situation where I have seen no pilots passing out of Cranwell for about 3 years and I hear it may be another 18 months before we see such an event - an amazing reflection on a Service based on aircrew!
As far as I am aware the RN maintained an aircrew recruiting stream throughout this period - but then again they DID learn the lessons of history. I think the RN also moved their FJ pipeline to the US to avoid he clutches of the RAF controlled UK pipeline.
I find it difficult to believe this snafu was a political decision. It would have been fairly easy to convince a minister that the best way forward ( based on previous experience in the early 90s etc) is that it is better to chop and maintain a recruiting flow than to retain and stop recruiting. It is also cheaper in the medium term. I only observe the pilot situation where I have seen no pilots passing out of Cranwell for about 3 years and I hear it may be another 18 months before we see such an event - an amazing reflection on a Service based on aircrew!
As far as I am aware the RN maintained an aircrew recruiting stream throughout this period - but then again they DID learn the lessons of history. I think the RN also moved their FJ pipeline to the US to avoid he clutches of the RAF controlled UK pipeline.
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Bismarck, doesn't really matter whether you find it hard to believe our not. That is the truth. Unfortunately both those individuals concerned and the service now have to manage an almost impossible situation. Nobody who has been involved can believe that we are where we are, as the saying goes. Given your comments I guess you haven't been involved - be thankful for that.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bismark, you confirm my point. The capacity of the pipeline seems to have been the driver for recruits. I know there has always been an 'in to Service' quota for each trade and branch but with the pipe varying in length from a few months to 3 years there was little scope for stopping output by closing the inlet tap.
Shutting the inlet and outlet taps 3 years ago was the only way to stop it but of course everyone in the pipe was then in the hold. Your point that the pipe should have been drained and flow reduced to a trickle is valid.
Of course a large pipe with a continual input of students needs to run at capacity to produce the lowest cost per trainee.
But that large pipe has meant a disproportionately high number of staff in training billets which denuded the front line of experience which demanded more recruits to replace them.
Shutting the inlet and outlet taps 3 years ago was the only way to stop it but of course everyone in the pipe was then in the hold. Your point that the pipe should have been drained and flow reduced to a trickle is valid.
Of course a large pipe with a continual input of students needs to run at capacity to produce the lowest cost per trainee.
But that large pipe has meant a disproportionately high number of staff in training billets which denuded the front line of experience which demanded more recruits to replace them.
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As one of the pilot studes to be made redundant I would just like to dispel the notion that many/most of us landed on our feet within commercial aviation post redundancy. Whilst it's true that some guys went off to Cathay and others (typically post Wings) got other flying jobs the reality is that a large majority are doing things not related to flying. Some have chosen other careers whilst others are still striving to achieve their flying dreams-however the road is long and expensive.
To the OP, be happy with what you have. If flying is what you want to do then bide your time, take the money and make the most of the opportunities available. If you don't, and you choose to leave, make sure you have a good plan-the job market is very crowded for inexperienced 20/30-somethings atm, and the air force pays very well in comparison.
To the OP, be happy with what you have. If flying is what you want to do then bide your time, take the money and make the most of the opportunities available. If you don't, and you choose to leave, make sure you have a good plan-the job market is very crowded for inexperienced 20/30-somethings atm, and the air force pays very well in comparison.
zz369,
First of all I'm sorry for what happened to you - and wish you well for the future.
WannabeCrewman is a big boy (person?) who can make his/her own mind up, all we can do is offer advice/opinions/suggestions. However, I disagree with your advice (but not your right to offer it).
First of all remember that the OP isn't on substantive Sgts pay, so their pay presumably isn't huge (I know about all the fringe benefits, cheap accommodation, free gym, healthcare, etc), probably what graduate entry jobs are paying in the civil world. However, and this is my main point. Presumably the OP is still young, free and single, with no mortgage to pay, kids to clothe, feed, etc. It's just themselves they have to look after. People who join the military are generally proactive, they want to go out into the world and do something, make a mark, achieve, contribute, etc - as a rule they're not the sort of people who "play it safe". The OP seems to be faced with a five year wait, presumably during their early 20s, sitting on their hands during some of the most productive years of their life, with no real guarantee of anything at the end of it.
My advice would be for them to leave and get on with their life while they can.
However, the beauty of advice is that NOBODY HAS TO TAKE IT!!
Once again, best of luck with your personal future.
First of all I'm sorry for what happened to you - and wish you well for the future.
WannabeCrewman is a big boy (person?) who can make his/her own mind up, all we can do is offer advice/opinions/suggestions. However, I disagree with your advice (but not your right to offer it).
First of all remember that the OP isn't on substantive Sgts pay, so their pay presumably isn't huge (I know about all the fringe benefits, cheap accommodation, free gym, healthcare, etc), probably what graduate entry jobs are paying in the civil world. However, and this is my main point. Presumably the OP is still young, free and single, with no mortgage to pay, kids to clothe, feed, etc. It's just themselves they have to look after. People who join the military are generally proactive, they want to go out into the world and do something, make a mark, achieve, contribute, etc - as a rule they're not the sort of people who "play it safe". The OP seems to be faced with a five year wait, presumably during their early 20s, sitting on their hands during some of the most productive years of their life, with no real guarantee of anything at the end of it.
My advice would be for them to leave and get on with their life while they can.
However, the beauty of advice is that NOBODY HAS TO TAKE IT!!
Once again, best of luck with your personal future.
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Looking at civvie street if you left in the next couple of yrs you could move back in with parents to save money. Buying your own place will cost, on a monthly basis, (very conservatively) £700 for mortgage/rent, £100 for council tax, utilities £60, £15 insurance, £100 travel costs to work, £40 gym, £10 dental = £1,025 pcm. That's very conservative and equates to around £12,000 a yr, a difference of around £9,500 extra costs over staying in the mess. So add £10k onto what you are paid just now, that is the minimum you would need to earn to have the same standard of living!
Plenty of well paid, and secure, jobs on the outside if one is prepared to take the leap. I'd opine the grass out here is verdantly lush, when I look back at what I left I realise that what was described as green is in fact brown.
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A pal of mine in the RN at Culdrose tells me it is just as bad .... At a recent wings parade the youngest expedient was 29. Additionally, a Merlin student pilot recently PVR'd only to be told he had a 5 year return of service - his response was that he only had 2 yrs left on his commission. The Grob problem has really screwed up the FAA flying training pipeline
