SNP propose 7 Airbases for Scotland post Independence
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Assuming we use the 8% (which could be argued down to 2.5% depending on your metric of choice)....
What are you going to do with 32% of a SSBN or 64% of a C17? How about that 16% of a carrier? You do own almost half a T45, do you want the front or the back?
I guess you could operate your 12.8 Typhoons, but that's not really a large enough fleet to be sustainable and can you imagine the price Westlands will charge to maintain your 5.36 Apaches?
The reality is that 8% of most of the highest value defence assets doesn't result in anything of value. Instead an independent Scotland is going to be trading those assets for more mundane odds and sods. Expect to get a disproportionate number of tanks, soldiers, weapons and anything that the MoD have been looking to get rid of.
Ultimately none of this matters, as long as Alex gets his 8% of flesh by monetary value and can claim to have kept bases open it doesn't matter if any sort of useable military force results.
What are you going to do with 32% of a SSBN or 64% of a C17? How about that 16% of a carrier? You do own almost half a T45, do you want the front or the back?
I guess you could operate your 12.8 Typhoons, but that's not really a large enough fleet to be sustainable and can you imagine the price Westlands will charge to maintain your 5.36 Apaches?
The reality is that 8% of most of the highest value defence assets doesn't result in anything of value. Instead an independent Scotland is going to be trading those assets for more mundane odds and sods. Expect to get a disproportionate number of tanks, soldiers, weapons and anything that the MoD have been looking to get rid of.
Ultimately none of this matters, as long as Alex gets his 8% of flesh by monetary value and can claim to have kept bases open it doesn't matter if any sort of useable military force results.
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I personally have nothing against an independant Scotland as long as it is that, totally independant, no funding from the rest of the UK Plc and totally self sustaining, the trouble is the UK is so intertwined in itself I just cannot fathom out how you would do it, take politics for a start, say you have an MP representing an English City but born in Scotland, with independence and not being a natural Citizen of any of the Countries then making up the Uk, would he have to stand down? And then you get onto Government departments, will they all transfer south? Or car tax... Or car registrations... Where does it stop? And taxation will be a nightmare to reconcile
It all seems to be nigh on impossible to separate them?
It all seems to be nigh on impossible to separate them?
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th May 2012 at 17:56.
Not impossible - merely expensive...
Who will pay? Will an independent Scotland be required to pay the costs incurred in separation, or will they expect the English to pay 92% of the bill?
Who will pay? Will an independent Scotland be required to pay the costs incurred in separation, or will they expect the English to pay 92% of the bill?
OK my ha'pence worth as a Scotsperson brewed mostly in England. If we're all extremely lucky, the Scots, as looks like they may well do, will vote to maintain the state of the union.
If independence is craved, all will face a right old mess. Within a year, a lot of people who may have voted for independence will start to think about it belatedly,the juvenile anti-English Braveheart rhetoric will be evaporating fast as the reality of monster taxes, various demands for necessary funding for things like Border Controls, economic investment, decision on currency (Eck now says they'll keep the Queen and the Pound Sterling), how much they'll need to borrow and just how much they will expect, as has been mentioned, to be bouyed up by the remainder of the UK, essentially England. Oh and I can just see them retaining all the Typhoons and whatever other High Performance military Aircraft Eck's government think will be enough to be just like Norway and their F16/F35 programme. By the time they get to seriously addressing that issue, Lossiemouth and Leuchars will be abandoned by the R.A.F, Army or whoever and all will have been moved south of the border. English people serving in Army units with a Scottish origin will for the most part be opting to be retained by the British Army and of course the R.A.F. north of the border will see a similar drain of personnel with every right to choose to remain a part of the R.A.F. English or otherwise.
Shortly after this problem begins to expand, there may well be an attempt to review and negotiate Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK, the volatile idiots on both sides will be out of the woodwork and noisily opposing what they will see as "selling out" from either perspective. Furthermore, I expect this utter mess will start to develop and grow right at the time that it would be more in the United Kingdom's interests to stand as one as never before since the Second World War.
Then again I could be completely wrong!
It could even be much worse!
FB
If independence is craved, all will face a right old mess. Within a year, a lot of people who may have voted for independence will start to think about it belatedly,the juvenile anti-English Braveheart rhetoric will be evaporating fast as the reality of monster taxes, various demands for necessary funding for things like Border Controls, economic investment, decision on currency (Eck now says they'll keep the Queen and the Pound Sterling), how much they'll need to borrow and just how much they will expect, as has been mentioned, to be bouyed up by the remainder of the UK, essentially England. Oh and I can just see them retaining all the Typhoons and whatever other High Performance military Aircraft Eck's government think will be enough to be just like Norway and their F16/F35 programme. By the time they get to seriously addressing that issue, Lossiemouth and Leuchars will be abandoned by the R.A.F, Army or whoever and all will have been moved south of the border. English people serving in Army units with a Scottish origin will for the most part be opting to be retained by the British Army and of course the R.A.F. north of the border will see a similar drain of personnel with every right to choose to remain a part of the R.A.F. English or otherwise.
Shortly after this problem begins to expand, there may well be an attempt to review and negotiate Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK, the volatile idiots on both sides will be out of the woodwork and noisily opposing what they will see as "selling out" from either perspective. Furthermore, I expect this utter mess will start to develop and grow right at the time that it would be more in the United Kingdom's interests to stand as one as never before since the Second World War.
Then again I could be completely wrong!
It could even be much worse!
FB
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I can see nothing wrong with being proud of your nationality or 'regionality' (if that is a legitimate word). But as the last few posts have suggested, unwinding the complex legal, fiscal, economic and social ties that have bound us together all these years will be a heck of a job. There are so many imponderables that I doubt anyone really knows how it would all work out.
Our European friends may give us a pointer as to the sort of things we may expect, should the Greeks exit the Euro (I can't see how they can survive in it) and others follow suit - Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy......?
It's clear that the massed wisdom of our leaders, be they EU, Eurozone, G8, G20 (or G any other number you can think of), bankers, financiers, entrepreneurs, bookies or road sweepers have not got the foggiest how to steer us out of the god-awful mess we have been landed in by putting political ideals and egos before economic common sense. So I predict that the number of planes an independent Scotland might have will soon be completely irrelevant and totally subordinated to the necessity of rebuilding economic sanity in Europe. The long-term effect however, could well be that the European Nation State makes a comeback, as it is patently clear that trying to govern artificial groupings of disparate peoples and cultures is an impossible task.
Sorry to interrupt the cross-border slanging match with my cheerful observations. Carry on.
Our European friends may give us a pointer as to the sort of things we may expect, should the Greeks exit the Euro (I can't see how they can survive in it) and others follow suit - Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy......?
It's clear that the massed wisdom of our leaders, be they EU, Eurozone, G8, G20 (or G any other number you can think of), bankers, financiers, entrepreneurs, bookies or road sweepers have not got the foggiest how to steer us out of the god-awful mess we have been landed in by putting political ideals and egos before economic common sense. So I predict that the number of planes an independent Scotland might have will soon be completely irrelevant and totally subordinated to the necessity of rebuilding economic sanity in Europe. The long-term effect however, could well be that the European Nation State makes a comeback, as it is patently clear that trying to govern artificial groupings of disparate peoples and cultures is an impossible task.
Sorry to interrupt the cross-border slanging match with my cheerful observations. Carry on.
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"unwinding the complex legal, fiscal, economic and social ties that have bound us together all these years will be a heck of a job"
not really - we stop paying and they stop taking - sorted............
not really - we stop paying and they stop taking - sorted............
That statistic is almost certainly cancelled out by the oil industry where workers are taxed in Scotland but commute from England where they are supported by the English infrastruture.
As an Englishman married to a Scot and with a home north of the border, I do have a keen interest in how this will pan out. As with all political debates, it is hard to get to the truth. The SNP will make repeated claims backed up by 'facts' of how much richer Scotland will be if it goes solo. Westminster will argue exactly the opposite with 'counter facts' and those in the middle will have to make a tough decision with far reaching consequences. For regular readers of 'The Economist', they provided an excellent article a few weeks ago that suggested it would be a huge economic mistake for Scotland to make albeit, who can put a price on freedom. I understand that Alex Salmond was enraged by the article from the aforementioned highly respected magazine.
When the Czechs and Slovaks split up in the early 90's, the division of assets between the 2 was fairly easy, as the population had a nice 2:1 ratio (10mil:5mil). Slovakia, with a similar population to Scotland, experienced a huge public funding shock on the realisation that it suddenly had to create it's own FCO, Home Office, MOD HQ, embassies abroad, Border Security etc... even down to a whole bunch of senior officers being required to fill newly created NATO posts. I wonder if any of this has been factored in and I really would like to see detailed future plans and costs before arguing with Mrs PA's family on how they should vote. One thing is for certain, individual tax rates would take a huge hike to pay for the massive welfare bill north of the border. Hopefully, I could stay in the English tax system despite being domiciled in Scotland?
Of course, as we are seeing in Greece and France, I'm sure the SNP would be succesful if they promised a free I-Pad to all those who voted 'yes'.
Serious bit over with - now you can return to the racist comments that fill up 90% of this thread....
When the Czechs and Slovaks split up in the early 90's, the division of assets between the 2 was fairly easy, as the population had a nice 2:1 ratio (10mil:5mil). Slovakia, with a similar population to Scotland, experienced a huge public funding shock on the realisation that it suddenly had to create it's own FCO, Home Office, MOD HQ, embassies abroad, Border Security etc... even down to a whole bunch of senior officers being required to fill newly created NATO posts. I wonder if any of this has been factored in and I really would like to see detailed future plans and costs before arguing with Mrs PA's family on how they should vote. One thing is for certain, individual tax rates would take a huge hike to pay for the massive welfare bill north of the border. Hopefully, I could stay in the English tax system despite being domiciled in Scotland?
Of course, as we are seeing in Greece and France, I'm sure the SNP would be succesful if they promised a free I-Pad to all those who voted 'yes'.
Serious bit over with - now you can return to the racist comments that fill up 90% of this thread....
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One interesting point is that HMG reserves the right to tax "Government Pensions" in the UK irrespective of where the Recipient resides in the World. My Wife was a College Vice Principle whilst I was an RAF Officer and although we are Resident in France our Pensions are taxed in UK.
I would assume that all ex UK "Government Employees" in Scotland would continue to be Taxed by HMG - which is of course paying their Pensions!!
I would assume that all ex UK "Government Employees" in Scotland would continue to be Taxed by HMG - which is of course paying their Pensions!!
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More to the point, as I reside in Scotland, but my base is in England, would my HDT claim carry on as normal, (from my home address), or start at the border, and how would income tax work 
althenick,
Doesn't matter. We are a United Kingdom by the Act of Union. That means it matters to everyone in the UK. If the Scots have a referendum to see if they want to go or not, and if Mr S and the rest of the single issue politicos up there decide to try and do UDI a la Rhodesia, the rest of the UK should decide whether we want to keep on nicking all your oil etc!
Must say, I don't understand the anti Scottish feeling down here. You have a crap footie team, your rugby team is awful and you don't really play cricket so where's the harm? My daughter's mother in law is a rabid anti Scot. Don't know why, never been there as far as I know and lives in Northamptonshire. Weird! My son in law stuck it to her though, married a Scot so her grandson is half Scottish and her daughter in law is all Scottish. She claims this right because her Mum is Scottish and she was born in Scotland.
SO, in summary. All the UK should get a go at deciding whether they should leave the Union and the rest of England (don't know about Jock bashing in Wales and NI) should declare a truce and stop being, in effect, racist b'stards!
Doc C
Doesn't matter. We are a United Kingdom by the Act of Union. That means it matters to everyone in the UK. If the Scots have a referendum to see if they want to go or not, and if Mr S and the rest of the single issue politicos up there decide to try and do UDI a la Rhodesia, the rest of the UK should decide whether we want to keep on nicking all your oil etc!
Must say, I don't understand the anti Scottish feeling down here. You have a crap footie team, your rugby team is awful and you don't really play cricket so where's the harm? My daughter's mother in law is a rabid anti Scot. Don't know why, never been there as far as I know and lives in Northamptonshire. Weird! My son in law stuck it to her though, married a Scot so her grandson is half Scottish and her daughter in law is all Scottish. She claims this right because her Mum is Scottish and she was born in Scotland.
SO, in summary. All the UK should get a go at deciding whether they should leave the Union and the rest of England (don't know about Jock bashing in Wales and NI) should declare a truce and stop being, in effect, racist b'stards!
Doc C
Last edited by Doctor Cruces; 30th May 2012 at 15:59.
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I would assume that all ex UK "Government Employees" in Scotland would continue to be Taxed by HMG - which is of course paying their Pensions!!
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Doc
I can empithise with anyone south of the border wanting a say, I just think it should be about the practicalities of Independence rather than whether it should be allowed to happen. And yes, The oil was found in scottish waters however it was done whilst in the union therefore the rest of the UK have some rights to ownership.
I do get a little sick of the Jock Reich up here harping on about How the assets are going to be split up. I haven't heard too much about the Liabilities for example there are 14 British overseas dependencies going by th 9% rule Scotland should get at least 1 possibly 2. Theres probably more but I'm full up with lurgie and desperately need my grot.
I'm Scottish by Birth and British by Birthright. I am equally proud of the Unions Acheivments and ashamed at it's failures particularly where suffering and death has been caused.
But I'm still British
and no Jumped-up-wee-megalomaniac-****e-Bag that is overly fond of his Pies is going to take that away from me.
I can empithise with anyone south of the border wanting a say, I just think it should be about the practicalities of Independence rather than whether it should be allowed to happen. And yes, The oil was found in scottish waters however it was done whilst in the union therefore the rest of the UK have some rights to ownership.
I do get a little sick of the Jock Reich up here harping on about How the assets are going to be split up. I haven't heard too much about the Liabilities for example there are 14 British overseas dependencies going by th 9% rule Scotland should get at least 1 possibly 2. Theres probably more but I'm full up with lurgie and desperately need my grot.
I'm Scottish by Birth and British by Birthright. I am equally proud of the Unions Acheivments and ashamed at it's failures particularly where suffering and death has been caused.
But I'm still British
and no Jumped-up-wee-megalomaniac-****e-Bag that is overly fond of his Pies is going to take that away from me.
Althenic,
I only get this filtered through the English, Londoncentric media so am fairly insulated from what Scotland must be experiencing. I imagine Salmond and his cronies will be bombarding the average Scot with anti England propaganda in order to make his thousand year dream come about.
I'd love to see Scotland prosper, and Wales and NI, but as part of a United Kingdom. Trouble is, the attitudes displayed here probably go all the way to the top so a lot of re education and attitude adjustment will be necessary.
Best wishes for the future.
Doc C
I only get this filtered through the English, Londoncentric media so am fairly insulated from what Scotland must be experiencing. I imagine Salmond and his cronies will be bombarding the average Scot with anti England propaganda in order to make his thousand year dream come about.
I'd love to see Scotland prosper, and Wales and NI, but as part of a United Kingdom. Trouble is, the attitudes displayed here probably go all the way to the top so a lot of re education and attitude adjustment will be necessary.
Best wishes for the future.
Doc C
There is absolutely no anti English propaganda coming from the SNP.
There are plenty of English born SNP members and at least one SNP MSP is English.
On the other hand the anti SNP lies from the Daily Mail and the rest of the unionist press are disgusting.
There are plenty of English born SNP members and at least one SNP MSP is English.
On the other hand the anti SNP lies from the Daily Mail and the rest of the unionist press are disgusting.
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Meh, leddem go - whats worth hanging on to.
I was hated almost everywhere I went north of the border - just because of my accent.
My only refuge was in the lairs of the wild ones - the insane locals driven by the needs to surf, snowboard, and sail their way to paradise.
they know how to share, how to party and how to look after a fellow surfer far from his home break.
If they do break away I would go and visit - spend my huge english pounds up there buying trinkets, doodahs and Glenfiddich.
The racist vitriol is not helping - tell wee eck (as I believe he is called) to put up or shut up!
I was hated almost everywhere I went north of the border - just because of my accent.
My only refuge was in the lairs of the wild ones - the insane locals driven by the needs to surf, snowboard, and sail their way to paradise.
they know how to share, how to party and how to look after a fellow surfer far from his home break.
If they do break away I would go and visit - spend my huge english pounds up there buying trinkets, doodahs and Glenfiddich.
The racist vitriol is not helping - tell wee eck (as I believe he is called) to put up or shut up!
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Cornish S.R
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the Natives up here. As a 9 year old in 1972 My old man was Posted from Lossie to Culdrose and my accent went from Doric to Grokle almost overnight! Suffice to say when he was Draughted back up to Prestwick I came in for some attention from the Scratters. Trying to tell them I was from Elgin was an interesting experience When asked where I was from - Replied "Elgin" - the usual retort was "Where F*cks than in England" had to learn how to use my fists pretty quicky!
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the Natives up here. As a 9 year old in 1972 My old man was Posted from Lossie to Culdrose and my accent went from Doric to Grokle almost overnight! Suffice to say when he was Draughted back up to Prestwick I came in for some attention from the Scratters. Trying to tell them I was from Elgin was an interesting experience When asked where I was from - Replied "Elgin" - the usual retort was "Where F*cks than in England" had to learn how to use my fists pretty quicky!
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