'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'
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From today's DT - a raid that probably would have had a claim to the title 'most daring':
The secret Falklands 'suicide mission' - Telegraph
(Even if the picture illustrating the story has an aircraft with the wrong number of propeller blades....)
The secret Falklands 'suicide mission' - Telegraph
(Even if the picture illustrating the story has an aircraft with the wrong number of propeller blades....)
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ex Moveover
Thank You Sir .-
It's not only related to the fact that if we waited a few more month , we would probably had more Exocet .- Many other things were not properly plan for .- My personal opinion as I have stated that everything had properly been plan for April 2nd but not much after that since you were not suppose to come , USA would not support Great Britain and Chile would remain neutral .- But in this bussiness mistakes are paid with the loss of Human Lives .-
Today we can not take the route of " What If " .- Today we can only recreat what actually happen 30 years ago in each war accion by putting toghether the accounts from both sides .-
As I have related the account of what I saw that early morning of May 1st - those 5 or 6 British Airplanes approaching for the first attack ( that later happen to be 1 Vulcan and one Sea Harrier ) I would like to know what the Pilots on the Vulcan were seen .- Thanks Enrique
It's not only related to the fact that if we waited a few more month , we would probably had more Exocet .- Many other things were not properly plan for .- My personal opinion as I have stated that everything had properly been plan for April 2nd but not much after that since you were not suppose to come , USA would not support Great Britain and Chile would remain neutral .- But in this bussiness mistakes are paid with the loss of Human Lives .-
Today we can not take the route of " What If " .- Today we can only recreat what actually happen 30 years ago in each war accion by putting toghether the accounts from both sides .-
As I have related the account of what I saw that early morning of May 1st - those 5 or 6 British Airplanes approaching for the first attack ( that later happen to be 1 Vulcan and one Sea Harrier ) I would like to know what the Pilots on the Vulcan were seen .- Thanks Enrique
Last edited by reydelcastillo; 22nd Mar 2012 at 12:43.
Just to state it from the beginning, the only way that Argentina would won the war was to sink one of the Aircraft Careers.
But more AM-39 Exocet would caused many more headaches to the British Task Force.
The Atlantic Conveyor was a defenseless ship but it was in the middle of the battle groupe very close to the HMS Hermes...around 5 NM.
In fact both AM-39 Exocet were locked on the HMS Hermes.
Due to the use of contrameasures both missiles were deviated but relocked on the Atlantic Conveyor.
In the case of the May 30st attack, the SUEs were able to launch a single missile folowed by 4 MD A-4C Skyhawk also very close to the Aircraft Career battle groupe.
So the British Navy in all cases was unable to stop the SUE before launching and out of 5 missiles at least 3 did impact on their ships.
But most surprising was the Thyssen A209 ARA San Luis submarine war against the Bristish fleet.
The British fleet primary role was antisubmarine for NATO against the URSS submarine fleet in the Atlantic.
And it couldn't stop a single diessel power submarine to made three torpedo launches and returned to base.
ARA San Luis was very unlucky to have the fire computer of the submarine out of service just after leaving the port heading for the war zone.
And the German made torpedoes, SST-4, were not very reliable at all to say the least.
But more AM-39 Exocet would caused many more headaches to the British Task Force.
The Atlantic Conveyor was a defenseless ship but it was in the middle of the battle groupe very close to the HMS Hermes...around 5 NM.
In fact both AM-39 Exocet were locked on the HMS Hermes.
Due to the use of contrameasures both missiles were deviated but relocked on the Atlantic Conveyor.
In the case of the May 30st attack, the SUEs were able to launch a single missile folowed by 4 MD A-4C Skyhawk also very close to the Aircraft Career battle groupe.
So the British Navy in all cases was unable to stop the SUE before launching and out of 5 missiles at least 3 did impact on their ships.
But most surprising was the Thyssen A209 ARA San Luis submarine war against the Bristish fleet.
The British fleet primary role was antisubmarine for NATO against the URSS submarine fleet in the Atlantic.
And it couldn't stop a single diessel power submarine to made three torpedo launches and returned to base.
ARA San Luis was very unlucky to have the fire computer of the submarine out of service just after leaving the port heading for the war zone.
And the German made torpedoes, SST-4, were not very reliable at all to say the least.
I think there,s a further turning point overlooked, that Canberra was not attacked delivering its ultimately war winning load of troops. Was its white hull mistaken for a hospital ship? were there no attacks that day?
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Cosmic,
PLEASE do NOT think I am trying to belittle the very brave acts that were demonstrated by your excellent pilots, that was not my intent. You will see I am only critical of decisions made by the commanding officers of two warships.
AR1
The men of 42 Commando were the reserve force for HMS Intrepid's 3 Para, and they began to leave Canberra just after 1000hrs that morning.
The air attacks on the ships in San Carlos Water continued until 1600hrs, after which time HMS Ardent had been sunk and HMS Argonaut damaged. At 1900hrs, the order was given to disembark the remaining troops from Canberra, and at 2242hrs she weighed anchor and headed out of San Carlos Water and North Falkland Sound. The troops were ashore and fighting to regain control of the British Islands. Canberra had done her job and landed around 2000 troops without a casualty and without getting hit herself.
PLEASE do NOT think I am trying to belittle the very brave acts that were demonstrated by your excellent pilots, that was not my intent. You will see I am only critical of decisions made by the commanding officers of two warships.
AR1
Operation Sutton was the codename for the amphibious assault to reclaim the Falklands. At 2200hrs on the 20th May everyone on board went to General Emergency stations for the final approach to the Islands.
Canberra anchored at Fanning Head at 0017hrs on Friday 21st May.
Whilst HMS Antrim and HMS Plymouth laid down heavy bombardment of the shoreline, HMS Fearless and HMS Intrepid along with RFA Stromness and MV Norland disembark troops of 40 Commando, 3 Para, 45 Commando and 2 Para.
At 0520 that morning, Canberra weighed anchor and entered San Carlos Water to begin disembarking her troops amongst repeated air attacks from Argentine aircraft.
Canberra anchored at Fanning Head at 0017hrs on Friday 21st May.
Whilst HMS Antrim and HMS Plymouth laid down heavy bombardment of the shoreline, HMS Fearless and HMS Intrepid along with RFA Stromness and MV Norland disembark troops of 40 Commando, 3 Para, 45 Commando and 2 Para.
At 0520 that morning, Canberra weighed anchor and entered San Carlos Water to begin disembarking her troops amongst repeated air attacks from Argentine aircraft.
The men of 42 Commando were the reserve force for HMS Intrepid's 3 Para, and they began to leave Canberra just after 1000hrs that morning.
The air attacks on the ships in San Carlos Water continued until 1600hrs, after which time HMS Ardent had been sunk and HMS Argonaut damaged. At 1900hrs, the order was given to disembark the remaining troops from Canberra, and at 2242hrs she weighed anchor and headed out of San Carlos Water and North Falkland Sound. The troops were ashore and fighting to regain control of the British Islands. Canberra had done her job and landed around 2000 troops without a casualty and without getting hit herself.
TheVulcan, Milo Minderbinder, all
Reference the assistance from Chile.
The Chilean Air Force Commander-in-Chief, General Fernando Matthei and other Chilean Air Force personnel have provided details on the subject.
See following.
The Falklands Conflict - Data Library - Aircraft
General Matthei also gave a TV interview on the subject. Unfortunately the You Tube account that hosted the video has since been closed. It was in Spanish but a Spanish speaker kindly posted an outline.
From Ordie on Military Photos during 2008
From
Falklands 30 - Page 110
Reference the assistance from Chile.
The Chilean Air Force Commander-in-Chief, General Fernando Matthei and other Chilean Air Force personnel have provided details on the subject.
See following.
The Falklands Conflict - Data Library - Aircraft
General Matthei also gave a TV interview on the subject. Unfortunately the You Tube account that hosted the video has since been closed. It was in Spanish but a Spanish speaker kindly posted an outline.
From Ordie on Military Photos during 2008
Very interesting comments: (Paraphrasing)
Gen Maffei: "My goal is to make sure the Argentines were defeated, if not they will seek war with Chile."
Gen Maffei:"Between 1978 and 1980's the Chilean military, even though superior in training, it was inferior in numbers compared with Argentina."
Gen Maffei:"It was our intention to talk to the English first, but coincidently they approached us with the same concerns about Argentina."
Gen Maffei:"Our intelligence was not one of spies or agents, but of signal intelligence, electronics and determining to movement of forces."
Gen Maffei: " We have a state of the art underground command center in Punta Areas, Chile where much of the gathered intelligence was sent to Santiago and passed to the British Embassy and on to London."
Gen Maffei: "RAF C-130 with electronic intelligence equipment flew from the Pacific via Easter Island disgused as Chilean Air Force aircraft. This was done on the premise they had to fly between internal destinations within Chile collecting intelligence. The aircraft were noted by the misspelling of the Fuerza Area de Chile."
Gen Maffei: "Soon after the sinking of the HMS Sheffied, our intellegence sharing was perfected to the point that we knew the daily sorties of the Argentine aircraft, number of aircraft that took off and the number that returned."
Annoucer: "Chile had massed its forces in the south, in return the Argentine with-held its best units within the mainland."
Gen. Maffei: " When the Sea King helicopter crashed near Punta Arenas, the whole deal was almost off. I was emphatic that Chilean Territory was not to be used for offensive military actions into Argentina."
Chielan Liason Officer: "RAF Nimrod electronic warfare aircraft operated from the remote San Felix island in the Pacific."
Annoucer: "On the day of the Bluff Cove attack on the Sir Galahad and Sir Tristam, both the Chilean Radar and RAF Nimrod were out of service."
Note: the images of the Hunter and Canberras were in reference to a deal to re-equip the Chiean Air Force with extra equipment.
Gen Maffei: "My goal is to make sure the Argentines were defeated, if not they will seek war with Chile."
Gen Maffei:"Between 1978 and 1980's the Chilean military, even though superior in training, it was inferior in numbers compared with Argentina."
Gen Maffei:"It was our intention to talk to the English first, but coincidently they approached us with the same concerns about Argentina."
Gen Maffei:"Our intelligence was not one of spies or agents, but of signal intelligence, electronics and determining to movement of forces."
Gen Maffei: " We have a state of the art underground command center in Punta Areas, Chile where much of the gathered intelligence was sent to Santiago and passed to the British Embassy and on to London."
Gen Maffei: "RAF C-130 with electronic intelligence equipment flew from the Pacific via Easter Island disgused as Chilean Air Force aircraft. This was done on the premise they had to fly between internal destinations within Chile collecting intelligence. The aircraft were noted by the misspelling of the Fuerza Area de Chile."
Gen Maffei: "Soon after the sinking of the HMS Sheffied, our intellegence sharing was perfected to the point that we knew the daily sorties of the Argentine aircraft, number of aircraft that took off and the number that returned."
Annoucer: "Chile had massed its forces in the south, in return the Argentine with-held its best units within the mainland."
Gen. Maffei: " When the Sea King helicopter crashed near Punta Arenas, the whole deal was almost off. I was emphatic that Chilean Territory was not to be used for offensive military actions into Argentina."
Chielan Liason Officer: "RAF Nimrod electronic warfare aircraft operated from the remote San Felix island in the Pacific."
Annoucer: "On the day of the Bluff Cove attack on the Sir Galahad and Sir Tristam, both the Chilean Radar and RAF Nimrod were out of service."
Note: the images of the Hunter and Canberras were in reference to a deal to re-equip the Chiean Air Force with extra equipment.
Falklands 30 - Page 110
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Theres a transcript of what appears to be that interview which you can get at by Googling
"Chile y su participación en Malvinas"
Its the first hit - Google also allows translation. I believe it has the interview you are referring to
I can't hyperlink to it - the forum software corrupts the link
Parts of the same interview also appear in this sequence of six You tube clips
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smaRHDZWaAo
Wish I could understand Spanish.
"Chile y su participación en Malvinas"
Its the first hit - Google also allows translation. I believe it has the interview you are referring to
I can't hyperlink to it - the forum software corrupts the link
Parts of the same interview also appear in this sequence of six You tube clips
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smaRHDZWaAo
Wish I could understand Spanish.
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 22nd Mar 2012 at 21:13.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
But most surprising was the Thyssen A209 ARA San Luis submarine war against the Bristish fleet.
The British fleet primary role was antisubmarine for NATO against the URSS submarine fleet in the Atlantic.
And it couldn't stop a single diessel power submarine to made three torpedo launches and returned to base.
ARA San Luis was very unlucky to have the fire computer of the submarine out of service just after leaving the port heading for the war zone.
And the German made torpedoes, SST-4, were not very reliable at all to say the least.
The British fleet primary role was antisubmarine for NATO against the URSS submarine fleet in the Atlantic.
And it couldn't stop a single diessel power submarine to made three torpedo launches and returned to base.
ARA San Luis was very unlucky to have the fire computer of the submarine out of service just after leaving the port heading for the war zone.
And the German made torpedoes, SST-4, were not very reliable at all to say the least.
"The British fleet primary role was antisubmarine for NATO against the URSS submarine fleet in the Atlantic."
The 209 was a first class SSC built by one of our NATO partners; it was not operated by the Russians. Like the Exocet, our forces were not equipped to counter allied equipments although we would encounter Mirage, A4, 209 etc when exercising with our allies but countering an exercise target simulating a Soviet threat is a world of difference from countering it was a live threat.
If you haven't bought a copy of the book yet I'd hang on for another couple of weeks. A new edition should be released on 15 Apr with more content on Vulcan ops and 44 Sqn.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
PN
Sorry, should have been more specific: "Vulcan 607."
Sorry, should have been more specific: "Vulcan 607."
An account of the ARA San Luis war patrol may be read at Post #45 on the link. Those with any direct experience of submarine operations will draw their own conclusions.
YS
YS
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The "What If" does not take anywere .- What happen , happen 30 years ago and the only thing we can do is recolect the facts of what happen back then y try to bring them here in memory and respect of those that from Both Sides didn't make it back .-
If you haven't bought a copy of the book yet I'd hang on for another couple of weeks. A new edition should be released on 15 Apr with more content on Vulcan ops and 44 Sqn.
at £127..50 from Amazon I DON'T THINK SO!
at £127..50 from Amazon I DON'T THINK SO!
Vulcan 607 [Hardcover]
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RRP: £150.00
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This title has not yet been released.
You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives.
Dispatched from and sold by Amazon.co.uk. Gift-wrap available.
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If the Argentinians had a few more Super Entendards and a lot more Exocets, the outcome would have been quite different.
Do we know any details of what aircraft were actually used in the Falklands Camaign and from which Chilean bases. Have there been any written accounts?
In any case, a good rule of thumb maybe is considering deployed to Chile any Nimrod, Hercules and Canberra RAF Sqn with battle honours AND not sighted in Ascension
Also, there was some speculation about a missing Phantom Sqn...
Furthermore, UK deployed an early warning radar (not sure model) to Punta Arenas, operated by brit-chilean forces, and with direct link to Northwood.
An account of the ARA San Luis war patrol may be read at Post #45 on the link. Those with any direct experience of submarine operations will draw their own conclusions.