'Falklands' Most Daring Raid'
Matra 550 Magic I is not all aspect missile but with much better capabilities than the Shafrir Mk IV (IAI Dagger A and MD A-4C Skyhawk) or Sidewinder AIM-9B (Argentine Navy MD A-4Q Skyhawk).
Matra 530 had IR or Radar guidance but it was designed for shotting down bombers so it was ineffective against fighters.
According to the Argentine Air Force only one AA missile was launch from one of its fighters.
On May 1st, a Shafrir Mk IV was launch from a IAI Dagger A against a Sea Harrier FRS1 and it missed the target
In all other air to air combats on that day no other launch had being made from an Argentine aircraft.
Matra 530 had IR or Radar guidance but it was designed for shotting down bombers so it was ineffective against fighters.
According to the Argentine Air Force only one AA missile was launch from one of its fighters.
On May 1st, a Shafrir Mk IV was launch from a IAI Dagger A against a Sea Harrier FRS1 and it missed the target
In all other air to air combats on that day no other launch had being made from an Argentine aircraft.
Cosmiccomet
The Nimrod was fitted with LAU7/A launchers taken from spare Phantom stocks which were then specially modified over a weekend. A Nimrod was then flown to our Phantom base with pylons already fitted. The LAU7/A launchers were then fitted to the pylons and electrical checks carried out successfully. I stand to be corrected by any Nimrod aircrew who subsequently deployed with the system, but I doubt that we would have been tasked to do a specific modification if they were just for show.
The Nimrod was fitted with LAU7/A launchers taken from spare Phantom stocks which were then specially modified over a weekend. A Nimrod was then flown to our Phantom base with pylons already fitted. The LAU7/A launchers were then fitted to the pylons and electrical checks carried out successfully. I stand to be corrected by any Nimrod aircrew who subsequently deployed with the system, but I doubt that we would have been tasked to do a specific modification if they were just for show.
IIRC - Nimrod chaps will know for sure, of course - wasn't the idea that the Nimrod FMR.2 (
) could be used to deal with the 707 and Learjet sorties flown by the Argentine AF?
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... wasn't the idea that the Nimrod FMR.2 () could be used to deal with the 707 and Learjet sorties flown by the Argentine AF?
All that said, it made Fighter Affil sorties more interesting. SHAR pilots reacted less than sportingly to a call of 'Fox 2' from the MPA.
Yes, Matra 550 Magic was a better weapon than the 530, which was pretty mediocre, especially the semi-active version. However, comparing anything to AIM-9B (the original 'winder) isn't saying much.
The AIM-9 installation on the Nimrod was a serious installation, not just for show. My nav and I gave them their AIM-9 briefing and worked out how they might use it for them. The idea was that if anything was stupid enough to fly in front of them, they could have a go at shooting it. Aiming with no missile sight was an issue, but we found a way aroiund it using chinagraph - seriously.
The AIM-9 installation on the Nimrod was a serious installation, not just for show. My nav and I gave them their AIM-9 briefing and worked out how they might use it for them. The idea was that if anything was stupid enough to fly in front of them, they could have a go at shooting it. Aiming with no missile sight was an issue, but we found a way aroiund it using chinagraph - seriously.
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Courtney Mil ... Please don't leave it there ... Wax Crayon on Perspex to solve aiming geometry has got to be worth a few more lines ... Resourceful or what 
Best regards ...
Coff.
Best regards ...
Coff.
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Courtney Mil ... Please don't leave it there ... Wax Crayon on Perspex to solve aiming geometry has got to be worth a few more lines ... Resourceful or what 
Come on Courtney, have got to hear this one.
RAF goes from 20th Century back to crayons
The system might have ended up in a museum if they had actually scored
a kill with it !
I believe that a similar "Heath Robinson" sight was put together to allow the Nimrod to aim the bombs (can't remember whether they were 500lbs or 1,000lbs) it was also rapidly fitted with during the conflict....
Regarding the Ajax Bay S259 - Again theres a memory thing going on, but I'm sure the original intention was S600 deployment - that ended up going down with the Atlantic Conveyor. The S259 would have deployed afterwards, If I recall correctly it was at Kellys Garden and was then moved to the original Kent site alongside the S600 who's type escapes me at the moment as that particular RADAR was a bit 'heavy' for me.. The supporting systems involved some RN kit that I'd never seen before in my life (or since). No problems young man, the manual is on the table...
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Just rereading the transcript of General Matthei's interview, and one question stands out.
What is the "Moondrop" spy aircraft he refers to, described a "like a 707 passenger, but transformed" ?
Is that an R1 Nimrod? Or something else?
What is the "Moondrop" spy aircraft he refers to, described a "like a 707 passenger, but transformed" ?
Is that an R1 Nimrod? Or something else?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I believe the Nimrod aiming system was based on the CVBS - if BEagle be following he was a expert on this.
Basically a vertical chinagraph line on the windscreen and a couple of horizontal lines on a transparent back plate. The vertical was aligned with the target and aimed off for drift. The horizontals to determine range release point.
I don't know if this was the same used on the Nimrod with 20 years of development incorporated
And CVBS? Copilot's Visual Bombing System
Basically a vertical chinagraph line on the windscreen and a couple of horizontal lines on a transparent back plate. The vertical was aligned with the target and aimed off for drift. The horizontals to determine range release point.
I don't know if this was the same used on the Nimrod with 20 years of development incorporated
And CVBS? Copilot's Visual Bombing System
Gates Learjet 35s were never used for long range recce.
Argentine Air Force Learjet 35, Corporate Jets (Learjet 23/25/36, Cessna Citation 500, Hawker 125), turboprops (Mitsubishi MU2 and Aerocommander AC690) were joint in the Fenix squadron.
Their civil aviators were given a military rank during the war.
Most of the Learjet and Cessan Citation flights were flown as a fighters like profiles to cause confusion on the Task Force defences
Another use of the Learjet 35s was as a guiding IAI Dagger A flights.
The IAI Dagger A didn't have any Long Range Navigation System...just a Magnetic Compass...so the fighter bomber flights were flown with a Learjet 35 guiding the flight until the islands.
This picture was taken from a Learjet 35 guiding a IAI Dagger A flight on June 8th 1982.
Argentine Air Force Learjet 35, Corporate Jets (Learjet 23/25/36, Cessna Citation 500, Hawker 125), turboprops (Mitsubishi MU2 and Aerocommander AC690) were joint in the Fenix squadron.
Their civil aviators were given a military rank during the war.
Most of the Learjet and Cessan Citation flights were flown as a fighters like profiles to cause confusion on the Task Force defences
Another use of the Learjet 35s was as a guiding IAI Dagger A flights.
The IAI Dagger A didn't have any Long Range Navigation System...just a Magnetic Compass...so the fighter bomber flights were flown with a Learjet 35 guiding the flight until the islands.
This picture was taken from a Learjet 35 guiding a IAI Dagger A flight on June 8th 1982.
Last edited by cosmiccomet; 23rd Mar 2012 at 19:48.
AR1
The S259 Radar was on the Atlantic Conveyor when she left the UK, but was cross decked to RFA Stromness at ASI (guy who told me about it said he was onboard the Conveyor to keep an eye on it for the first half of the trip (Don't doubt his word as he did have the gong on his number ones), and it was also him who told me they set up shop at Ajax Bay. Moving a 259 around is no big deal as long as you have a Chinook to hand.
The S259 Radar was on the Atlantic Conveyor when she left the UK, but was cross decked to RFA Stromness at ASI (guy who told me about it said he was onboard the Conveyor to keep an eye on it for the first half of the trip (Don't doubt his word as he did have the gong on his number ones), and it was also him who told me they set up shop at Ajax Bay. Moving a 259 around is no big deal as long as you have a Chinook to hand.
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Ahh...the Atlantic Conveyor, a lot of my friends were on her when she was hit and went over the side, I wonder if any of them are reading this.. One thing that went to the bottom of the sea on her that wasn't missed was the safe, a lot of the guys had cashed some pretty serious cheques on the way South as there was a bar on board I believe.. And those cheques were in the safe. She was a bit of a floating bomb when she departed.
cosmiccomet
Humm the infamous HMS Avenger attack, I've been waiting for this one to come up. I will call it that as it happened nowhere near HMS Invincible. For details of the Exocet/A4 Skyhawk raid on 30th May 1982 ask the crew of HMS Avenger as she was the ship that the Exocet was fired at and the two Skyhawks that didn't get killed by Exeter's Sea Darts actually tried to bomb. Top shooting by Exeter in this case, Navaleye on another thread thought that the Sea Dart kill by Exeter on the Learjet was the most impressive SAM shot of the conflict, For me, taking two very low altitude A-4s down with a pair of SARH SAM is much more impressive.
In fact what actually happened was described by Hugo White, the Captain of Avenger (along with a simulated radar emulation) on the BBC Horizon program 'In the Wake of HMS Sheffield' which described the lessons learn from the conflict by the Royal Navy made in 1986. Starts at 19:00 into the Clip (at the time British proaganda claimed the Avenger nailed the Exocet with her 4.5 inch Gun, while Exeter claimed both Skyhawks, which I'm sure is what happened in the later case (Up there with 18 Rapier kills on Avenger's gun kill on both the Exocet and A4 though
).
Humm the infamous HMS Avenger attack, I've been waiting for this one to come up. I will call it that as it happened nowhere near HMS Invincible. For details of the Exocet/A4 Skyhawk raid on 30th May 1982 ask the crew of HMS Avenger as she was the ship that the Exocet was fired at and the two Skyhawks that didn't get killed by Exeter's Sea Darts actually tried to bomb. Top shooting by Exeter in this case, Navaleye on another thread thought that the Sea Dart kill by Exeter on the Learjet was the most impressive SAM shot of the conflict, For me, taking two very low altitude A-4s down with a pair of SARH SAM is much more impressive.
In fact what actually happened was described by Hugo White, the Captain of Avenger (along with a simulated radar emulation) on the BBC Horizon program 'In the Wake of HMS Sheffield' which described the lessons learn from the conflict by the Royal Navy made in 1986. Starts at 19:00 into the Clip (at the time British proaganda claimed the Avenger nailed the Exocet with her 4.5 inch Gun, while Exeter claimed both Skyhawks, which I'm sure is what happened in the later case (Up there with 18 Rapier kills on Avenger's gun kill on both the Exocet and A4 though
).Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 24th Mar 2012 at 00:02.
I am more for your side but the debriefing of the two surviving pilots was totally different...
Anyway, I was always asking why the HMS Exceter missiles were so accurate that day against two aircraft flying extremely low...lower than you can believe.
The Sea Dart missiles were not designed for low level targets, the HMS Coventry missiles didn't worked in almost the same condition.
Even the HMS Sheffield's Sea Dart didn't catch the SUE or the inbound AM-39 Exocet.
And the story of the Mk8 cannon taking out the Exocet...
Anyway, I was always asking why the HMS Exceter missiles were so accurate that day against two aircraft flying extremely low...lower than you can believe.
The Sea Dart missiles were not designed for low level targets, the HMS Coventry missiles didn't worked in almost the same condition.
Even the HMS Sheffield's Sea Dart didn't catch the SUE or the inbound AM-39 Exocet.
And the story of the Mk8 cannon taking out the Exocet...
About the Nimrod AIM-9 aiming. It was a fairly simple matter and it just might have worked. We worked out where the missile boresite was, easy to see where the rocket was pointing on the ground. Pick a distant feature along that line of sight. Captain sat in his throne and put a cross with a red chinagraph over the same distant object. Fortunately, the Golf had a reasonably wide field of view, probably a bit wider than the (of the top of my head) 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 degrees nominal. So against a cold background there was some room for error.
So, don't slouch, put the cross over the target, audio tone says the mx sees the target, launch the wee beastie. Boom. Simples.
Sorry it's not more exciting, but there was no other way of doing it. Well, not that we could see at the time. Quick, dirty, simple, might have worked.
By the way, it wasn't the FMR2. It was the FGMR2P. Lots more additional stuff crammed into those jets. Could even (technically) have done a bit of a Black Buck.
So, don't slouch, put the cross over the target, audio tone says the mx sees the target, launch the wee beastie. Boom. Simples.
Sorry it's not more exciting, but there was no other way of doing it. Well, not that we could see at the time. Quick, dirty, simple, might have worked.
By the way, it wasn't the FMR2. It was the FGMR2P. Lots more additional stuff crammed into those jets. Could even (technically) have done a bit of a Black Buck.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 23rd Mar 2012 at 22:54.
An Answer to a PM from PN
A very good idea and very brave attempt at Force Multiplication. Use your aircraft fitted with a radar to find the target ships at long range, fire a Exocet and the non radar equipped aircraft flying in formation with the radar equipped aircraft open the taps and follow the missile smoke trail in to bomb what ever they find. The reason I say infamous is that after 30 years of all of information that has come out about the war, people still believe that on 30th May HMS Invincible was hit by an Exocet and bombed by 2 Skyhawks on the evidence of two pilot's who had just flown a very hazardous mission, seen two of their best mates killed and then had their debrief filmed for National TV. What where they going to say?? Oh we bombed a Type 21 frigate and missed??? Not good for national morale!!! One point to note is that the Avenger was transiting to the gun line at the time, though the area where the SHAR / GR 3 climb out point was. Explains the reason for the Black Buck ARM sorties.
cosmiccomet
2 Skyhawk pilots say they bombed Invincible. The whole ships company of Avenger say they were attacked by 2 Skyhawks and avoided an Exocet. The whole ships company of Invincible say they got hit by nothing. Numbers don't stack up well for the Skyhawk pilots.
HMS Exeter was a batch 2 Type 42 with a new long range search radar (10cm Type 1022 with much better signal processing than the 1.5 metre band sets used on the rest of the Type 42's) plus a load of upgrades to other systems and the engagement was in open water.
HMS Coventry was not far off Pebble Island when she was attacked, ground clutter from the land made picking up the Skyhawks that attacked her almost impossible with the equipment she was fitted with, thus she couldn't lock the Sea Dart radar's on target in time to engage them. Coventry's captain wanted to operate further out to sea to counter this problem, but He was overruled by the Flag Staff.
HMS Sheffield didn't take any action whatsoever (there could be a lot of controversy about this if the full story ever comes out, but basically one of the Ops room staff went public on a TV Programme in blaming the ship's PWO for dereliction of duty (Captain was in his cabin asleep as he had been on duty for 48 hours solid), Whether this is an axe grind or the truth, I've no idea) HMS Glasgow on the other hand detected the radar of the SUE's, got radar returns on the aircraft which correlated on the ESM bearing, called a raid warning, fired a chaff patten, tracked the Exocet's in and tried, but failed to engage them with Sea Dart. Coventry heard the raid warning and fired a chaff patten.
HMS Glasgow got a bomb though the engine room after the Sea Dart launcher malfunctioned while trying to engage the Skyhawks that were attacking her. The 909 radar that would have guided the missiles did have a good lock on the aircraft at the time.
and yes we did believe that Rapier had shot down 18 aircraft at the time as well.
A very good idea and very brave attempt at Force Multiplication. Use your aircraft fitted with a radar to find the target ships at long range, fire a Exocet and the non radar equipped aircraft flying in formation with the radar equipped aircraft open the taps and follow the missile smoke trail in to bomb what ever they find. The reason I say infamous is that after 30 years of all of information that has come out about the war, people still believe that on 30th May HMS Invincible was hit by an Exocet and bombed by 2 Skyhawks on the evidence of two pilot's who had just flown a very hazardous mission, seen two of their best mates killed and then had their debrief filmed for National TV. What where they going to say?? Oh we bombed a Type 21 frigate and missed??? Not good for national morale!!! One point to note is that the Avenger was transiting to the gun line at the time, though the area where the SHAR / GR 3 climb out point was. Explains the reason for the Black Buck ARM sorties.
cosmiccomet
2 Skyhawk pilots say they bombed Invincible. The whole ships company of Avenger say they were attacked by 2 Skyhawks and avoided an Exocet. The whole ships company of Invincible say they got hit by nothing. Numbers don't stack up well for the Skyhawk pilots.
HMS Exeter was a batch 2 Type 42 with a new long range search radar (10cm Type 1022 with much better signal processing than the 1.5 metre band sets used on the rest of the Type 42's) plus a load of upgrades to other systems and the engagement was in open water.
HMS Coventry was not far off Pebble Island when she was attacked, ground clutter from the land made picking up the Skyhawks that attacked her almost impossible with the equipment she was fitted with, thus she couldn't lock the Sea Dart radar's on target in time to engage them. Coventry's captain wanted to operate further out to sea to counter this problem, but He was overruled by the Flag Staff.
HMS Sheffield didn't take any action whatsoever (there could be a lot of controversy about this if the full story ever comes out, but basically one of the Ops room staff went public on a TV Programme in blaming the ship's PWO for dereliction of duty (Captain was in his cabin asleep as he had been on duty for 48 hours solid), Whether this is an axe grind or the truth, I've no idea) HMS Glasgow on the other hand detected the radar of the SUE's, got radar returns on the aircraft which correlated on the ESM bearing, called a raid warning, fired a chaff patten, tracked the Exocet's in and tried, but failed to engage them with Sea Dart. Coventry heard the raid warning and fired a chaff patten.
HMS Glasgow got a bomb though the engine room after the Sea Dart launcher malfunctioned while trying to engage the Skyhawks that were attacking her. The 909 radar that would have guided the missiles did have a good lock on the aircraft at the time.
and yes we did believe that Rapier had shot down 18 aircraft at the time as well.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 24th Mar 2012 at 00:04.