Will Puma Survive?
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
From: Detroit MI
St. Johns:
Yep... I recall the only way to give an order is to use is to/are to. Anything else is a prediction that may or may not result in the desired action. Maybe they are slacker in the dark blue...
Yep... I recall the only way to give an order is to use is to/are to. Anything else is a prediction that may or may not result in the desired action. Maybe they are slacker in the dark blue...
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 588
Likes: 17
From: Hampshire
Tourist, choice between sleeping in the Boeing Hilton or in a ditch, I know which I'll choose, I've done both. And they were both on operations, where people were killed, before you try to pick holes in the argument.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: East Anglia
Really good news for the Puma guys - is it the whole Puma LEP, or just the airframes already in the system?
But, something is certainly stirring up the road, not only have I had a whole load of the Merlin lot asking informally about how our transition plan is going, they then get a bit arsey when I say that we are tight on hours and spaces for our own guys, let alone absorbing them.
Some of the Merlin community still adamantly believe that Merlin will remain with us and are determined to ensure that whatever it takes they will delay and prevent RN footholds, others just do not want anything to do with the time away at sea and therefore are happy to go for Joint Force Merlin approach, conceding one of our squadrons to the RN, and just recently there is a small but determined bunch that are planning their exit strategy to CH47 as although they have not been told, they think there is now recognition that Merlin is going to the RN and that they had better do something about it before the music stops and they do not have a cockpit to sit in!
Personally, I am with the delay/wait and see community, hopefully by about 2015 Defence will turn around to the RN, give them a pat on the head and say 'well done for trying', give them one Merlin squadron that is always at sea, ultimately under a light blue command structure (so kind of a Joint Force Merlin, but commanded by us).
But as we were all saying yesterday, nothing formal seen (the word 'intent' is such a lovely word, meaning everything, and nothing, at the same time
As Seldom said, it was looking pretty bleak for us, but fortunately our ex boss and his team in town have done us proud and saved the (Puma) day - lets hope they can do some magic in swinging the Merlin open debate back our way too.
But, something is certainly stirring up the road, not only have I had a whole load of the Merlin lot asking informally about how our transition plan is going, they then get a bit arsey when I say that we are tight on hours and spaces for our own guys, let alone absorbing them.
Some of the Merlin community still adamantly believe that Merlin will remain with us and are determined to ensure that whatever it takes they will delay and prevent RN footholds, others just do not want anything to do with the time away at sea and therefore are happy to go for Joint Force Merlin approach, conceding one of our squadrons to the RN, and just recently there is a small but determined bunch that are planning their exit strategy to CH47 as although they have not been told, they think there is now recognition that Merlin is going to the RN and that they had better do something about it before the music stops and they do not have a cockpit to sit in!
Personally, I am with the delay/wait and see community, hopefully by about 2015 Defence will turn around to the RN, give them a pat on the head and say 'well done for trying', give them one Merlin squadron that is always at sea, ultimately under a light blue command structure (so kind of a Joint Force Merlin, but commanded by us).
But as we were all saying yesterday, nothing formal seen (the word 'intent' is such a lovely word, meaning everything, and nothing, at the same time
As Seldom said, it was looking pretty bleak for us, but fortunately our ex boss and his team in town have done us proud and saved the (Puma) day - lets hope they can do some magic in swinging the Merlin open debate back our way too.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Likes: 1
From: uk
"Personally, I am with the delay/wait and see community, hopefully by about 2015 Defence will turn around to the RN, give them a pat on the head and say 'well done for trying', give them one Merlin squadron that is always at sea, ultimately under a light blue command structure (so kind of a Joint Force Merlin, but commanded by us)"
The addition of the green Merlin Sqdn's to the RN will happen, the depth facility is already RN run, the Merlin facilities down Culdrose are more than enough to support the entire fleet. The only question is whether they end up down Culdrose or Yeovilton. If i was a betting man i would say a good part of the decision to keep Puma was to appease the light blue boys when the Merlin does come to us.
The addition of the green Merlin Sqdn's to the RN will happen, the depth facility is already RN run, the Merlin facilities down Culdrose are more than enough to support the entire fleet. The only question is whether they end up down Culdrose or Yeovilton. If i was a betting man i would say a good part of the decision to keep Puma was to appease the light blue boys when the Merlin does come to us.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 2
From: Home
Maroon
I think you need to realise that without the Merlin coming to the RN, the FAA is unsupportably small.
ie, end of. close up shop. Not just junglies, but the lot of us. Below a certain number, it makes no sense to try to maintain the whole pyramid.
This may not seem like a bad thing to you, but the consequences of that are so enormous that I am sure it will go dark blue in its entirety, whatever your higher ups may say/wish quietly. The Puma thing is your sop. enjoy it.
I am willing to lay a bet that if I am wrong I never post again.
Ready to match my bet?
I think you need to realise that without the Merlin coming to the RN, the FAA is unsupportably small.
ie, end of. close up shop. Not just junglies, but the lot of us. Below a certain number, it makes no sense to try to maintain the whole pyramid.
This may not seem like a bad thing to you, but the consequences of that are so enormous that I am sure it will go dark blue in its entirety, whatever your higher ups may say/wish quietly. The Puma thing is your sop. enjoy it.
I am willing to lay a bet that if I am wrong I never post again.
Ready to match my bet?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
From: Borderline England
And I think you are kidding yourself if you think that any decisions made by the current Govt are there to appease anyone during this time of financial constraint. Did anyone feel appeased by the deletion of Ark Royal, Harrier or Nimrod ?
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Likes: 1
From: uk
The loss of another platform would have had a major impact on morale in the lighter blue area and i do think that would have been taken into account. I also doubt they could afford to buy themselves out of another project like they would have had to with Harrier. I agree with Tourist in that once the critical mass goes so does the entire capability.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 588
Likes: 17
From: Hampshire
Merlin Mk3 is going to the RN, no doubt. The Puma decision makes that loss acceptable to the RAF. The critical mass argument worked both ways so if the RAF had lost both Merlin and Puma, then it (SH Force) would also become unviable. This way both services are content, so yes, there are still political decisions made in these lean times.
When Comd JHC asked the RAF's Merlin guys if they wanted to go to sea, not one of them put their hands up. That sealed it in his eyes; give the fleet to those who are prepared to sail and don't try to defend any other decision. Ironically, a fair few of those with their hands down will end up on Chinooks and will undoubtedly see what grey funnel cruising is all about.
When Comd JHC asked the RAF's Merlin guys if they wanted to go to sea, not one of them put their hands up. That sealed it in his eyes; give the fleet to those who are prepared to sail and don't try to defend any other decision. Ironically, a fair few of those with their hands down will end up on Chinooks and will undoubtedly see what grey funnel cruising is all about.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: at home
I have heard a rumour that only a quarter of the mk3 Merlin fleet will be optimised to go to sea. Note my use of the word optimised, not marinised. I think it will go dark blue , as Tourist said to save the FAA, not for any other reason. What a waste of already trained light blue crews and engineers who will be kicked out as soon as they return from Ops.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 588
Likes: 17
From: Hampshire
High Spirits, I largely agree with you, particularly on the optimisation, but the transition isn't going to be so swift that there can't be an orderly transition and find the majority of crews alternate employment. If that wasn't going to be possible, we'd have seen more aircrew in the redundancy tranche.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: at home
MG,
No aircrew in the present tranche because the light blue mk3 fleet is committed to ops and there are very few trained RN as yet. Post 2015 SDSR the cull will be significant if not enough aircrew leave between now and then.
No aircrew in the present tranche because the light blue mk3 fleet is committed to ops and there are very few trained RN as yet. Post 2015 SDSR the cull will be significant if not enough aircrew leave between now and then.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: at home
Unchecked,
That's because Comd JHC never asked. Its good JHC myth that the present light blue force were ever consulted as to whether they would like to go to sea. They would never have been asked such a question as the ac does not presently have a clearance to operate from a ship.
That's because Comd JHC never asked. Its good JHC myth that the present light blue force were ever consulted as to whether they would like to go to sea. They would never have been asked such a question as the ac does not presently have a clearance to operate from a ship.