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Will Puma Survive?

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Will Puma Survive?

Old 2nd Jan 2012, 11:16
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Wildcat 1st course 8 weeks and counting (cash in AW bank)
That counts for nothing! See Nimrod MRA4...

As it happens, I think both versions of Wildcat are safe, but not because we may or may not have started to train people on it.

massive credit is definitely due to the Puma 2 Fielding Team
Let's just hope all their hard work isn't in vain...
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 12:22
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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massive credit is definitely due to the Puma 2 Fielding Team
And RWOETU who have been instrumental in programme since the start, supporting the P2G PT, ATEC and Eurocopter with front line advice, SME input and many many man hours of hard work, especially CG.
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 13:13
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Door Slider,
Agreed - CG has been an utter mainstay of Puma 2; it's great that his efforts have been recognised.
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 14:39
  #124 (permalink)  
Gnd
 
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high (just about to fall) spirit (ghost, dead cause), If the best your small mind can do is protect your lost cause using petty distraction, I feel sorry for you. You are truly small minded, petty, pathetic and on a lost cause. You will fail and be on your deserved dung heap of self-importance soon - I shall be there to laugh and spit at you! Happy Brown suit - if you are good enough, not me, I.m thick!!

Last edited by Gnd; 2nd Jan 2012 at 14:52.
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 15:22
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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And lets not forget, pick up the high (ish) ranking crew and media when the mighty Wokka runs out of fuel

HG
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 16:18
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by high spirits
I had to speak the language of the gutter to get my point across to an individual who is still stuck in the dark ages.....


He deserved no less of a strong rebuke, and no more of an effort on my part.
Fairy nuff. Nice to see that everything is returning to normal after the season of goodwill to all men, women, those of an indeterminate or self-determined gender, inclusive to each level of social and edumacational status.
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 18:21
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Oooh, get you!

Bitter about those aptitude test results again? Bless.
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 18:38
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Digin,
I was referring to a slightly earlier, more moronic post, from Gnd. I should have been more specific in my goading.

HS
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Old 2nd Jan 2012, 19:01
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder what the media will make of it if Puma 2 does get the boot. And with Merlin going to the RN too. Especially after the headlines of a few years ago about lack of lift. Mind you, it will probably all get lost in the splash of the Euro getting flushed down the pan and other disasters.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 08:39
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder what the media will make of it
Not a lot - because the Government will point out that Puma isn't currently in Afghan, so its loss won't be felt by those deployed, and they will also point out that the RAF has a number of Chinooks on order. Seeing as we (the supposed experts!) can't agree on the ideal number and size of SH platforms, I don't imagine that the cash-strapped public will spend too much time arguing with the "but there will be stacks of Chinooks so it'll be fine" logic.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 09:26
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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The pro-armed forces media are astute enough to know that whilst Puma may not be in Afghan; it is doing/available for; other jobs. Jobs that will need replacing by Chinook should Puma go. ie the concetina effect still equates to a loss of helicopters when said lack of rotary has already attracted bad press.

If tensions on the east coast of Africa warm up, the Puma could be home and dry (literally). I doubt Puma will disappear this side of UK SH coming out of Afghan and it has been suggested in the press that this could be after 2015.

That MoD money is in the AW pigy bank is no security for Wildcat/Lynx at all. The precident on that has already been set on several projects, and the decision makers always look forwards not back. ie Cancellation will save X future expenditure rather then we have already spent and therefore we are committed. Cx P2, Cx Wildcat and string out P1s lifetime would be the penny pinching solution.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 09:31
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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It was my understanding thar Puma 2 will be deployed in Afghan as soon as it comes on line, to a mere mortal like me I would think that a mix of Puma 2 and chinook would give a commander a much more flexible range of options when dealing with any situation rather than having to send the large chinook or small Linx.

The problem is I am talking logic and the government is talking money ( or lack of it)
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 09:52
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Especially after the headlines of a few years ago about lack of lift.

But let's be honest - the whole "lack of lift" issue was actually a combination of lack of deployable (in AFG) cabs, coupled with residual demands in Iraq and limitations in the flying hours/cabs JHC were allowed (by HMT) to employ. Not to mention that the MERT (understandably) prefer to work out of a big cab, which takes out at least one ready wokka.

The real problem has been that neither the Puma, nor the SK were initially deployable in AFG and the SK wasn't until the Carson fit. Given that the JHC forward fleet (Puma, Wokka, SK4 and Merlin HC 3/3A) in 2008 according to DASA

UKDS 2010 - Chapter 4 - Formations, Vessels, Aircraft and Vehicles of the Armed Forces

was 96 aircraft, to have over half the fleet (HC1 and SK4) non-deployable was always going to cause issues, given maintenance, training, currency demands.

Once Herrick is done, the specific demands of AFG will be replaced by the need for a broader capability, which with the additional 22 chinooks (8 Mk3s plus the 14 new cabs) is going to be a challenge. Like it or not, fully embarked ops are going to be required - and not just on the O-boat / Lusty or QEC, RFAs are frequently used as host platforms for SH, so the solution will have to be fully seagoing and fit the needs of 3 Cdo Bde.

That ain't Puma and it isn't a pure wokka force either. Merlin 3/3A is less than perfect starting point, but short of a new buy of something suitable (the amphib Merlin or CH53K) both of which highly unlikely, it's the best way forward of a bad bunch. As MM righly points out, if you're going aboard, you need to be scaled, trained and willling to do it for long periods.

Last edited by Not_a_boffin; 3rd Jan 2012 at 16:51.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 10:00
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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The pro-armed forces media are astute enough to know that whilst Puma may not be in Afghan; it is doing/available for; other jobs. Jobs that will need replacing by Chinook should Puma go. ie the concetina effect still equates to a loss of helicopters when said lack of rotary has already attracted bad press.
You are absolutely right - but when that bad press happened, times were much better than they are now, so the average British person had fewer pressing concerns. The Govt might well just decide to take a brief flurry of bad publicity knowing that very quickly people's attention will turn back to jobs/the economy/Olympics/Diamond Jubilee (or, more likely, Britain's Got Talent/X Factor!).

It was my understanding thar Puma 2 will be deployed in Afghan as soon as it comes on line
...but how soon can Puma 2 deploy, and how does that compare with the Govt's stated date from Afghanistan? The Puma 2's first flight was only six months ago, and whether or not the current exit date turns out to be nonsense won't matter, because the decision about Puma 2 will be made long before the exit date officially changes.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 11:01
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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My impression was that the original FRWS (remember that?) had the Puma 2 going to Afghan to replace the Merlin 3 to permit (albeit limited) marinisation before being passed to CHF. That, of course, was predicated on 22+2 new Chinooks and 30ish Puma 2. Since then the AOR in Afghan has shrunken considerably (as has the near-cash available to fund anything) and the Govt probably think they can chop Pu2 as the Merlin could go straight to CHF without marinisation if it stags on in Afg until 2015, Pu 1 will still be in the UK for any Olympic contingency role and can be quietly rolled into the long grass after the jockstrapping is all finished. Net result? Operating costs of Pu2/Pu1 saved, CHF survive (and AW will, eventually, get the job of marinising it), the Govt (much in the style of it's predecessor) will pronounce the new Chinooks (yet again) and slant them as a Puma replacement and 4 Sqns of SH aircrew will be left fighting for seats on 1 new Chinook Sqn......

What could upset this applecart? CAS digging his heels in over Merlin transfer (probably a low risk given his desire to preserve Typhoon/F35 and the RAF's post-Libya push to retain Sentinel), the AOR in Afghan expanding again or a tech problem grounding Chinook for a prolonged period (it's happened before...). Or, HMG deciding that a 100% 24/7 LitM capability is a "nice to have" rather than an 70-80% solution at a weeks notice provided by Crabair....
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 14:24
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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In the applecart upsetting calculation, don't forget that Eurocopter UK is based in rather close proximity to the constituency of the Rt Hon David William Donald Cameron MP PC.

PM's interefere over defence projects in neighbouring constituencies? Never happ... hang on....

Granted, it's in the next door constituency, but it is a Tory marginal with a majority of 176 and fairly important if DC is going to aspire to getting a parliamentary majority at the next election.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 19:12
  #137 (permalink)  
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Wildcat won't make 2015 so Puma2 has even less of a chance- so no AFG

Last edited by Gnd; 4th Jan 2012 at 19:53.
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Old 3rd Jan 2012, 21:25
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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One of the particular selling points of Puma 2 is actually its rapid deployability. Quicker and easier to strip down than its larger brethren; 2 fit inside a C-17 (just); relatively simple rebuild at the far end (I've watched half-a-dozen engineers do it in a few hours with nothing but a landie and a jingly crane!).

In other words - should Puma 2 survive, HMG will then be able to deploy a meaningful SH capability worldwide within days. Sure, if the situation demands a medium-scale commitment, then more and larger SH will be required in addition. But for smaller deployments or when the need for speed is paramount - Puma 2 should be the way forward...
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 05:34
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Article in the Sun today



RAF’s Puma helicopters face axe amid defence cutbacks | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys

Not looking good.

MW
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 06:10
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if the press are aware that we will lose net 2 entire helicopter fleets by 2015 with the demise of Sea King Mk 4if this cut goes ahead. How many helicopters? Circa 60 plus at a guess.

Pretty shabby thing to do in light of headlines about a lack of troop carrying helicopters only 2 years ago......
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