Will Puma Survive?
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 269
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From: England
I have seen Puma 2 cockpit and perf figures. Not massively impressed. Gives the frame an extra decade or so. Whoopy-do. What then?
Yes, it only gives us an extra 12 years, but we either get the P2 or nothing. 10-12 years should be enough time for the ecomony to improve and a longer term medium aircraft to be purchased. The NH90 may even have all its problems ironed out by then!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
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From: at home
Mainly the cockpit actually. Tell me what will make a jot of difference to the way it operates now as an analogue version...... Will it enable more pilot SA, I don't think so.
Better engines, I agree and long overdue. There are accident reports going back to the 80s that recommended the fitting of an anticipator system. I guess that is why I'm unimpressed. It could have been so much better years ago. Without the demise of some good aircrew. The !!!! polish only lasts a decade or so. What then? Chinook only?
Better engines, I agree and long overdue. There are accident reports going back to the 80s that recommended the fitting of an anticipator system. I guess that is why I'm unimpressed. It could have been so much better years ago. Without the demise of some good aircrew. The !!!! polish only lasts a decade or so. What then? Chinook only?
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 269
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From: England
I fail to see financially what other options we have at the moment, there is little choice. If polishing a !!!!, whether you believe it should be puma or sea king keeps an additional fleet in the hope we get a good replacement in 10 years then so be it, or if you prefer we can scrap it and have fewer frames, less people and less capability, financially what else can we do?
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: United Kingdom
The argument for Blackhawk was a valid one in the eighties. However the limited headroom due to compatability with transporting it by C130 is no longer valid when air forces including our own have C17. With any luck a better designed battlefield helicopter (with a tail wheel) will appear in the next decade. NH90 is a good looking helicopter, but what we really need is a grandson to the Wessex that can stop whilst airborne quickly and be ran onto roughish terrain. One that has two cabin doors and seats around the cabin to free up floor space in between the seats for kit. Such a helicopter is yet to see the light of day and it is not Blackhawk.
Joined: Nov 2000
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Mainly the cockpit actually. Tell me what will make a jot of difference to the way it operates now as an analogue version...... Will it enable more pilot SA, I don't think so.
Better engines, I agree and long overdue. There are accident reports going back to the 80s that recommended the fitting of an anticipator system. I guess that is why I'm unimpressed. It could have been so much better years ago. Without the demise of some good aircrew. The !!!! polish only lasts a decade or so. What then? Chinook only?
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 41
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From: in the bath
The dies already cast for what happens in ten years
Puma will be replaced by AW149 - manned by the Army
Any remaining green Lynx and other light helicopters will be replaced by a stretched AW609. Eventually these will replace Wildcat as well - and some will be fitted for AEW work
Green Merlins will have been condemned by then and V-22 will be on order to replace them, and also the oldest Chinooks
Puma will be replaced by AW149 - manned by the Army
Any remaining green Lynx and other light helicopters will be replaced by a stretched AW609. Eventually these will replace Wildcat as well - and some will be fitted for AEW work
Green Merlins will have been condemned by then and V-22 will be on order to replace them, and also the oldest Chinooks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 205
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From: UK
Whether or not the cockpit is any good/makes a huge difference to the operational capability of the crew was not really a huge consideration. The new glass cockpit is there simply because it came with the engines as part of an extant EC mod programme that had already been fitted to other nations' Pumas. To redesign it or try to keep the old analogue cockpit would have cost more, much more. Remember this was a Life Extension Project, NOT an upgrade (the 'U' word was forbidden!), cost was everything.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: UK
redesign it or try to keep the old analogue cockpit
Pity they kept the old undercarriage.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 205
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From: UK
Caveat: been a while since I had anything to do with Puma 2, so things may have moved on!
Yes, but not necessarily the RAF Puma cockpit (330E, effectively an RAF specific version of the 330B, which gives you some idea of its vintage!). To fit the Makilas and leave the same cockpit in would have required EC/MoD/QinetiQ etc to start from scratch with the design and certification process, as that work has, tmk, never been done. EC had already done the certification work (to JAR-29) on the Makila mod when they sold it to its previous customers, so QinetiQ need only to work on the delta between the Def Stans and JAR-29, rather than the whole shooting match (that was the case early on in the programme, if that's no longer the case I stand corrected), which saves money. If the Makilas could have been fitted to the Puma with the old cockpit still in, and it was cheaper doing it that way than doing it with the glass cockpit, that is what would have happened.
It would be nice to think so, but no. It happily does bring those benefits, as well as the performance increase that the Makilas bring, and the extra fuel from having the 5th tank back in. But that was not the driver for this programme.
The whole thing has only been done in order to get anticipators on the Puma so it can stag on for another 10 years. Anticipators requires Makilas, the Makila mod brings the glass cockpit. The glass cockpit is only there because it comes with the Makilas.
The only reason it was done this way is because it is the cheapest way.
The Makilas have been flying around with analogue cockpits in the 332 for thirty years
I would have thought that introducing the glass cockpit at the same time was for flying and operational reasons with their obvious benefits
The whole thing has only been done in order to get anticipators on the Puma so it can stag on for another 10 years. Anticipators requires Makilas, the Makila mod brings the glass cockpit. The glass cockpit is only there because it comes with the Makilas.
The only reason it was done this way is because it is the cheapest way.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 282
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From: Finchampstead
IMHO the best replacement for the Puma/Wessex - type helicopter would have been/be the Westland Westminster. A twin jet Wessex with engines above the cockpit (NO CGB). It lifted the trailer plus a mounted Bloodhound missile together and that was back in the 50's. It was impressive but of course !!!!-canned by some short sighted tosser. It looked similar to the Blackhawk but had headroom enough to stand up inside. 
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: .
Dunduggin
It was cancelled so the money could be spent on the Rotodyne instead
Now that would have been the real solution - damn noisy though
Not sure how survivable that terylene skin on the Westminster would have been either - unless the production ones were going to be metal-skinned??
It was cancelled so the money could be spent on the Rotodyne instead
Now that would have been the real solution - damn noisy though
Not sure how survivable that terylene skin on the Westminster would have been either - unless the production ones were going to be metal-skinned??
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 14th February 2012 at 16:11.
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Southwater
Speaking of Pumas I was driving up the M40 yesterday at 11.00 ish and a Puma came over the carriageway lower than I've ever seen a helicoter in flight not at an airshow. It could not have been more than 60-70 feet high, possibly lower.