Scottish Independence
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That video of course actually became Tom Harris' downfall and deservedly so.
However, I do have to thank David Cameron from the bottom of my heart for interfering in the referendum issue. In the seven days immediately following his statement, over 1300 new members joined the SNP - a record number for such a short time, a 6% increase in membership, and every one of them a new canvasser on the streets for independence. Keep on talkin' Dave !
Incidentally, independence is absolutely nothing to do with any dislike of the English or of the citizens of any other country. It is all about pride in our own country and about a peoples' desire to govern themselves - a quite natural thing for any nation to aspire to.
I do understand the English antipathy about the whole thing though with your realisation that your annual budget deficit will go through the roof when you lose £12 billion of the North Sea oil revenues that we presently subsidise you with every year. You do realise too that you will lose your Trident base on the Clyde and that an independent England will, as a result of having no other suitable facilities, no longer be one of the world's great nuclear powers.
No wonder that in the complete absence of them being able to deliver sound pro-union arguments, unionist politicians are now panicing like mad and resorting to lies and scaremongering - they know the consequences to England only too well. Problem for them is that we Scots are now seeing through their lies.
PS the Royal Scottish Air Force will be recruiting from about 2016 onwards and we will definately be looking for MPA crews, amongst others. Watch this space.
However, I do have to thank David Cameron from the bottom of my heart for interfering in the referendum issue. In the seven days immediately following his statement, over 1300 new members joined the SNP - a record number for such a short time, a 6% increase in membership, and every one of them a new canvasser on the streets for independence. Keep on talkin' Dave !
Incidentally, independence is absolutely nothing to do with any dislike of the English or of the citizens of any other country. It is all about pride in our own country and about a peoples' desire to govern themselves - a quite natural thing for any nation to aspire to.
I do understand the English antipathy about the whole thing though with your realisation that your annual budget deficit will go through the roof when you lose £12 billion of the North Sea oil revenues that we presently subsidise you with every year. You do realise too that you will lose your Trident base on the Clyde and that an independent England will, as a result of having no other suitable facilities, no longer be one of the world's great nuclear powers.
No wonder that in the complete absence of them being able to deliver sound pro-union arguments, unionist politicians are now panicing like mad and resorting to lies and scaremongering - they know the consequences to England only too well. Problem for them is that we Scots are now seeing through their lies.
PS the Royal Scottish Air Force will be recruiting from about 2016 onwards and we will definately be looking for MPA crews, amongst others. Watch this space.
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It is all about pride in our own country and about a peoples' desire to govern themselves - a quite natural thing for any nation to aspire to.
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In the interests of Equality should the English, Irish and Welsh have a vote at the same time as the Scots to decide whether we wish the Scots to remain in the United Kingdom?
Of course the Scots will have to take their share of the UK's national debt and pay for the construction and transfer of the N Sub Base to Falmouth.
I guess they'll want the Scots Guards & other Scottish Regts and may be a Friagte or two & a couple of squadrons of Typhoon etc. Fine, if they can afford it.
Personally, I'd rather we had a referendum on devolution for England. leave Westminster in charge of UK wide policy whilst Scotland, Wales, England & N Ireland looked after their own purely domestic issues. We'll have the English parliament in the centre, some where near Derby should be Ok. Should be able to slim down the Westminster and County Council machines but it will mean a whole new bunch of professional politicos at a national level. So be it.
I guess they'll want the Scots Guards & other Scottish Regts and may be a Friagte or two & a couple of squadrons of Typhoon etc. Fine, if they can afford it.
Personally, I'd rather we had a referendum on devolution for England. leave Westminster in charge of UK wide policy whilst Scotland, Wales, England & N Ireland looked after their own purely domestic issues. We'll have the English parliament in the centre, some where near Derby should be Ok. Should be able to slim down the Westminster and County Council machines but it will mean a whole new bunch of professional politicos at a national level. So be it.
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All I tried to do was bring some basic truths into this but clearly some of you are not mature enough yet for that and still think the whole thing is some sort of joke. Sorry to disillusion you: this is for real - it is happening - it is almost certain that Scotland will become an independent nation again.
If I'm right then in less than three years time our political masters on both sides of the border are going to have to sit down and apportion out the UK's defence assets (and all other UK assets and liabilities for that matter) between Scotland and the new Union of England Wales and N. Ireland in a ratio of roughly 8.5% to 91.5%.
It would be nice to hear some of our serving officers contributing to that debate in a serious way. Defence planners here in Scotland are looking at these issues right now and perhaps some of them even peruse this forum. For example, what would best meet Scotland's Air Defence capability - is a single squadron of Typhoons viable or not? Should they perhaps operate with England in a unified air defence command a la Norad? What is the best option for an MPA and do you think it ought to have an ASW capability? How many needed? There are a lot questions needing answered, all the better by serving officers than politicians.
Contributions gentlemen please.
Edit for andyy: England will automatically take ownership of all defence installations there, Scotland will take ownership of all installations here. There would be no question of either paying to rebuld or move installations, certainly not of the scale of Coulport. I suspect through that the wiley old fox (aka Alex Salmond) will give England a good deal on the rent for ten years or so until you do build a replacement in the Thames Estuary but get bolshie and you're up the creek without a paddle (or missile for that matter!)
If I'm right then in less than three years time our political masters on both sides of the border are going to have to sit down and apportion out the UK's defence assets (and all other UK assets and liabilities for that matter) between Scotland and the new Union of England Wales and N. Ireland in a ratio of roughly 8.5% to 91.5%.
It would be nice to hear some of our serving officers contributing to that debate in a serious way. Defence planners here in Scotland are looking at these issues right now and perhaps some of them even peruse this forum. For example, what would best meet Scotland's Air Defence capability - is a single squadron of Typhoons viable or not? Should they perhaps operate with England in a unified air defence command a la Norad? What is the best option for an MPA and do you think it ought to have an ASW capability? How many needed? There are a lot questions needing answered, all the better by serving officers than politicians.
Contributions gentlemen please.
Edit for andyy: England will automatically take ownership of all defence installations there, Scotland will take ownership of all installations here. There would be no question of either paying to rebuld or move installations, certainly not of the scale of Coulport. I suspect through that the wiley old fox (aka Alex Salmond) will give England a good deal on the rent for ten years or so until you do build a replacement in the Thames Estuary but get bolshie and you're up the creek without a paddle (or missile for that matter!)
"defence planners here in Scotland" - coffee, keyboard -go! If it was likely - the referendum would have already happened the previous times it had been promised by the SNP!
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Having had three parliaments (that of England, Scotland and Ireland) reduce to two parliaments (that of Great Britain and Ireland) in 1707, then a single parliament (that of the United Kingdom), in 1801, I think we can thank the Irish for ending up where we are today.
The creation of the Government of Northern Ireland in 1922 meant that, for the following half-century, two administrations existed within the UK; something which had never happened previously. Only from 1972 to 1999 did a single entity exist in the form of the UK Parliament at Westminster; something which had been the norm between 1801 and 1922.
However, since 1999, the Northern Ireland Assembly, National Assembly for Wales and Scottish Parliament have left those in England feeling, rightly, disenfranchised. Perhaps a federal approach to government within the UK is the only means of preventing a system, blatantly unfair to those in England, from imminent collapse.
After all, recent polls have indicated a greater % of those in England are in favour of Scotland leaving the UK than remaining - surprisingly, the reverse being true in Scotland.
The creation of the Government of Northern Ireland in 1922 meant that, for the following half-century, two administrations existed within the UK; something which had never happened previously. Only from 1972 to 1999 did a single entity exist in the form of the UK Parliament at Westminster; something which had been the norm between 1801 and 1922.
However, since 1999, the Northern Ireland Assembly, National Assembly for Wales and Scottish Parliament have left those in England feeling, rightly, disenfranchised. Perhaps a federal approach to government within the UK is the only means of preventing a system, blatantly unfair to those in England, from imminent collapse.
After all, recent polls have indicated a greater % of those in England are in favour of Scotland leaving the UK than remaining - surprisingly, the reverse being true in Scotland.
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Sandy Parts - please do get your facts straight.. The SNP's previous attempt to hold the referendum was blocked by the unionist parties in the Scottish parliament when the SNP was a minority government. Nothing that they could have done about that - that's how democracy works. Now, knowing they can't block it in parliament as the SNP has an absolute majority, those same unionist parties are doing their best to put obstacles in the way. That's politics.
Rab-k your analysis is pretty well spot on. The bungled set up by Labour of the devolved administrations did leave England with the short straw and you guys are quite rightly aggrieved by non-English MPs voting on purely English issues. At least the SNP MPs, as a matter of policy, do not even attend debates on English matters, let alone vote on them.
Rab-k your analysis is pretty well spot on. The bungled set up by Labour of the devolved administrations did leave England with the short straw and you guys are quite rightly aggrieved by non-English MPs voting on purely English issues. At least the SNP MPs, as a matter of policy, do not even attend debates on English matters, let alone vote on them.
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RedBarron
Not gonna lie, I think the idea of Scotland taking any of the UK's current military capability with it, is a pipe dream! In any case, where on earth would it find the money to operate a military?
Also, there are streams of economists lining up to say that Scotland would be financially worse off...to the point that there would be a very high consensus, if the SNP weren't arguing the opposite. The latest figures I can find, from an official government website, say £6 billion a year in oil and gas revenue... not enough to plug the enormous budget deficit that exists in Scotland's budget, if it went solo (Even £12 billion wouldn't quite suffice); so paying down Scotland's projected national debt of 145% GDP seems difficult too, and even more difficult if it took on its share of RBS?HBOS liabilities.
Just as a thought, if you were the government that was humiliated by the dismantling of the union (The big event that they would be forever remembered for), would you want to help Scotland go easily, or make it as painful as possible?
Not gonna lie, I think the idea of Scotland taking any of the UK's current military capability with it, is a pipe dream! In any case, where on earth would it find the money to operate a military?
Also, there are streams of economists lining up to say that Scotland would be financially worse off...to the point that there would be a very high consensus, if the SNP weren't arguing the opposite. The latest figures I can find, from an official government website, say £6 billion a year in oil and gas revenue... not enough to plug the enormous budget deficit that exists in Scotland's budget, if it went solo (Even £12 billion wouldn't quite suffice); so paying down Scotland's projected national debt of 145% GDP seems difficult too, and even more difficult if it took on its share of RBS?HBOS liabilities.
Just as a thought, if you were the government that was humiliated by the dismantling of the union (The big event that they would be forever remembered for), would you want to help Scotland go easily, or make it as painful as possible?
hmmmm - SNP in (unopposed) power since May 2011 - plenty of time to get a referendum on the streets if that had been what they really wanted. Truth is that, being the clever politician that he is, Salmond knows that a straight yes/no vote will result in a defeat for him - hard to come back from that if that is the 'raison d'etre' for your party...
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SeantheBrave. Official figures as contained in the most recent GERS report show total government expenditure in Scotland exceeding revenues from Scotland by around £9 billion, wihch number includes a demographic share of oil revenue (c£1 billion). An independent Scotland would however be entitled to its geographic share which is currently estimated at £11.7 billion, although that does fluctuate quite a bit year to year. That leaves Scotland with a nett surplus of about £1.7 billion per annum.
On the subject of defence spending, Scotland contributes about £2.9 billion of the UK's spend of £34 billion. Without the massive expense of SSNs and SSBN's, Type 45s, etc, i.e. with a defence forced scale down to our own needs and not those of a post-colonial would-be world peacekeeper, I suggest that £2.9 billion a year would buy a reasonable capability along the lines of Denmark, which spends just about the same amount.
On the subject of defence spending, Scotland contributes about £2.9 billion of the UK's spend of £34 billion. Without the massive expense of SSNs and SSBN's, Type 45s, etc, i.e. with a defence forced scale down to our own needs and not those of a post-colonial would-be world peacekeeper, I suggest that £2.9 billion a year would buy a reasonable capability along the lines of Denmark, which spends just about the same amount.
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I can hardly keep up.
From the BBC News web****e.
BBC News - Alex Salmond details his plan for a Scottish Defence Force
RAF Lossiemouth was saved from closure under the cuts, but RAF Kinloss, in Fife, will shut as an air base and will be taken over by the Army.
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Airpolice. Kinloss in Fife? Maybe we now know the truth; the Nimrods wern't scrapped at all, they just asked a policeman for directions and were never seen again !
PS Mr Airpolice, I know you only quoted the BBC but I couldnt let the chance go past!
I believe that the army are in the process of moving in there already. Does anyone any idea when Leuchars (which is in Fife) closes? The BoB airshow is confirmed on for this September so presumably still a flying station then.
Philip Hammond is of course indulging in just the sort of nonsense talk we up here have come to expect from Westminster politicians these days. Now that they have lost the economic argurment they resort to bullyboy tactics and they simply don't realise that in doing so they are acting as the best recruiting sergeants independence could ever wish for! This is just like Orborne and Darling last week who said that England might not let Scotland use the pound sterling, until reminded by Alex Salmond that Sterling was a convertible currency which meant that anyone anywhere in the world could use it. Michael Moore had to go on TV at the weekend and retract their claim. You'd think that the existing and most recent former Chancellor would have known better. They probably did but just expected us Scots not to and to be afraid, very afraid! .
PS Mr Airpolice, I know you only quoted the BBC but I couldnt let the chance go past!
I believe that the army are in the process of moving in there already. Does anyone any idea when Leuchars (which is in Fife) closes? The BoB airshow is confirmed on for this September so presumably still a flying station then.
Philip Hammond is of course indulging in just the sort of nonsense talk we up here have come to expect from Westminster politicians these days. Now that they have lost the economic argurment they resort to bullyboy tactics and they simply don't realise that in doing so they are acting as the best recruiting sergeants independence could ever wish for! This is just like Orborne and Darling last week who said that England might not let Scotland use the pound sterling, until reminded by Alex Salmond that Sterling was a convertible currency which meant that anyone anywhere in the world could use it. Michael Moore had to go on TV at the weekend and retract their claim. You'd think that the existing and most recent former Chancellor would have known better. They probably did but just expected us Scots not to and to be afraid, very afraid! .
Last edited by theredbarron; 19th Jan 2012 at 18:11.
I'm in favour of Scottish people having a vote on independence and deciding to ndo as the people wish without interference from anybody.
However its likely, given the vested interestsm that lots of manufactured scandals will occur by those whose financial interests wish to keep the Union in place.
However its likely, given the vested interestsm that lots of manufactured scandals will occur by those whose financial interests wish to keep the Union in place.
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Oil
The concept of Scottish Oil is interesting as its taken from outside the 12 mile limit; perhaps you should be worried that more and more oil from the North Sea is coming ashore here in Norway. Do the Shetlands and Hebrides get a vote on independence from Scotland? Will Scotland pay a proportion of the UK National Debt that exists - perhaps pro-rata with the defence assets they say they are entitled to? Absolute pipedream; the Scots voted in the SNP because they didn't want the Tories or Labour running the show - they've been able to eat their cake for too long and when they realise what Independence is, and will cost them, the answer will be (unfortunately) a firm NO.
"HTB - I'm steering clear of the whole Scotland - England argument but I'm happy to clear up the medal - cross thing for you.
In the time when the services had medals for the ORs and crosses for officers (pre 1993), the cut off came at Warrant Officer rank, or in the case of the army, Warrant Officer class 1. An RSM (or equivalent depending of the arm of service) was a WO1 and would be awarded the Military Cross, a Squadron Sergeant Major was a WO2 rank, and as such would qualify for the award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal or Military Medal. Same rules applied to the RAF, with a lot of WW2 aircrew winning the DFM as sergeants or flight sergeants and the the DFC as Warrant Officers".
Good attempt BUT the rules for award of MC do not/ did not specify the grade of army Warrant Officer, and as to whether a WO II received an MC or an MM was rather a lottery ......... the subject, particularly for the Great War, is far from straightforward.
As to English independence from Scotland, go for it. Should have happened in 1966.
In the time when the services had medals for the ORs and crosses for officers (pre 1993), the cut off came at Warrant Officer rank, or in the case of the army, Warrant Officer class 1. An RSM (or equivalent depending of the arm of service) was a WO1 and would be awarded the Military Cross, a Squadron Sergeant Major was a WO2 rank, and as such would qualify for the award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal or Military Medal. Same rules applied to the RAF, with a lot of WW2 aircrew winning the DFM as sergeants or flight sergeants and the the DFC as Warrant Officers".
Good attempt BUT the rules for award of MC do not/ did not specify the grade of army Warrant Officer, and as to whether a WO II received an MC or an MM was rather a lottery ......... the subject, particularly for the Great War, is far from straightforward.
As to English independence from Scotland, go for it. Should have happened in 1966.
theredbarron,
First of all, before anything gets heated, this is not intended as a "dig" at you personally. Also, tone is difficult to read in postings on threads such as this. However, you appear to me to be delighting in the prospect of "winning" an independent Scotland from the English....
I just feel I should point out that, Messrs Cameron, Osborne and Miliband aside, the average man in the street in England probably does not care one way or the other as to whether Scotland is, or is not, independent....it's not a big issue.
In fact I seem to remember reading somewhere, in a mainstream newspaper, that if there was a referendum tomorrow, more (a higher % that is!) English would vote for separation from Scotland than Scots would vote for separation from England...
Make of that what you will!
First of all, before anything gets heated, this is not intended as a "dig" at you personally. Also, tone is difficult to read in postings on threads such as this. However, you appear to me to be delighting in the prospect of "winning" an independent Scotland from the English....
I just feel I should point out that, Messrs Cameron, Osborne and Miliband aside, the average man in the street in England probably does not care one way or the other as to whether Scotland is, or is not, independent....it's not a big issue.
In fact I seem to remember reading somewhere, in a mainstream newspaper, that if there was a referendum tomorrow, more (a higher % that is!) English would vote for separation from Scotland than Scots would vote for separation from England...
Make of that what you will!
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Canadian Break.. Check your international law. Mineral rights extend out to 200 miles (or thereabouts, it depends on several factors). It's where the oil originates that matters as that is the country which will have granted exploration and production licenses.
I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense on the Hebrides and Shetlands.
Of course Scotland will take a share of the UK National Debt. Why wouldn't we? We're not in the business of threatening anybody - we want an amicable divorce without the rancour that the likes of Philip Hammond and George Osborne have tried to introduce in the last few days. Alex Salmond had said very clearly that Scotland would accept its 8.4% share of UK liabilites. By the same token we expect the 8.4% of the UK's assets that are rightly ours, including defence ones. All to be negotiated when the time comes.
I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense on the Hebrides and Shetlands.
Of course Scotland will take a share of the UK National Debt. Why wouldn't we? We're not in the business of threatening anybody - we want an amicable divorce without the rancour that the likes of Philip Hammond and George Osborne have tried to introduce in the last few days. Alex Salmond had said very clearly that Scotland would accept its 8.4% share of UK liabilites. By the same token we expect the 8.4% of the UK's assets that are rightly ours, including defence ones. All to be negotiated when the time comes.