Scottish Independence

[draken55]

Only one person I know, from all my close friends who like me live and work in Scotland, has any interest in being a citizen of an Independent Scotland. However, we all want a referendum to settle the matter once and for all. A simple Yes or No will do with no mucking about by either Salmond or Cameron.

On the question of the Northern Isles, do please note that they traditionally vote Liberal and have felt marginalised over the years by London, the Gaelic language lobby and in more recent years, the Edinburgh Parliament. Pop up to Kirkwall in Orkney and you will discover a growing desire to strengthen links with Norway and a natty new flag for the Island based on the Norwegian one. Shetland is thinking along the same lines. Don't forget that the oil comes ashore there at Sullum Voe.

This matter is in danger of becoming a bit like Independence for Quebec and Australia becoming a Republic. Issues that are resolved as nobody is willing to trust the voter in case they give a "wrong" result!

[theredbarron]

draken55. The last two opinion polls show 41 and 39% in favour of independence. Consider that the SNP went into the May 2011 election 14 points behind Labour and just 6 weeks later came away with an overall majority at Hollyrood. I would not bet a penny against their formidable election machine, aided and abetted by Cameron and Co's meddling and threats, and with over two years to do it, bringing in the extra 10 percent or so we need.

As for closer links with Norway: just what Alex Salmond has already proposed for an independent Scotland.

That's me on this thread, for tonight at least. Work to be done.

[XR219]

So according to that BBC story, Wee Eck is happy to keep Lossie as the sole air base in Scotland. Wouldn't be very convenient for basing the Presidential Eck Force One VIP transport though, would it? The Irish Air Corps only have one base too (didn't they used to have more?) but at least they had the sense to locate it just outside Dublin.

And he thinks the rest of the UK should foot the bill to keep his Scottish Free State nuclear-free.... now that's arrogance!

[XR219]

I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense on the Hebrides and Shetlands.

Why is it nonsense? Once you start claiming that individual groups have a right to "stand on their own two feet", where does it stop? If Orkney & Shetland vote a resounding "no" in the referendum, why shouldn't they get what they want? Similarly, if the referendum result in the south of Scotland is significantly different to that in the north (and looking at the map of constituencies after the Scottish Parliament elections last year, that's not entirely unlikely), they why shouldn't they have the right to establish the Province of Southern Scotland to remain in the UK? If we're tearing up the last 300 years of history, why do we have to stick to a border that was set in the 11th century? It's a whole big can of worms Salmond is opening up....

[Biggus]

I see that theredbarron gave my comment a good ignoring...!!

[Voroff]

As I come from the Hebrides the whole reverting to 11th century map works for me. The kingdom of Norway ( population about 5m) currently holds 1% of the worlds wealth in it's state pension plan, the other kingdom we are neighbour to has a massive debt, I think even the english must regret winning the battle of stamford bridge

[theredbarron]

Biggus no slight intended. strange that more English are in favour than Scots. I didnt realise that you wanted rid of us quite so much!!!

As for Orkney, the Borders etc voting against indpendence - this is not about parts or regions of a country, it is about the right of a NATION to self-determination. For unionists to embark on "divide and rule" tactics would show just how desperate they are becoming.

Now, I AM off to work.

[XR219]

As for Orkney, the Borders etc voting against indpendence - this is not about parts or regions of a country, it is about the right of a NATION to self-determination. For unionists to embark on "divide and rule" tactics would show just how desperate they are becoming.

Yes, but what is a "nation"? Isn't it just an arbitrary and sometimes fluid geo-political partitioning that is the result of many accidents of history? Scotland ceased to be a nation in the usual sense 300 years ago (except, of course, in certain contexts, sporting endeavours, etc.). You might still like to think of it as a nation, others may prefer to think of it as a constituent state of a greater union. Who's to say who's right?

And anyway, if you go back far enough you'll find the Kingdom of Scotland used to end at the Forth and Clyde. South of that were the lowland kingdoms of Strathclyde and Northumbria. If you want to turn the clock back to the 17th century, why stop there?

[COCL2]

As the majority of Northern Ireland's population is ethnically Scots, perhaps the two countries should form their own union and leave the UK together as one country?

[LFFC]

I’m fascinated to know just who would get to vote in the referendum. Would anyone living in the geographic area of Scotland get a vote, or only those who consider themselves as Scottish through birth? Who keeps records of such things?

If a person born in England, but living in Scotland at the time of the referendum gets to vote, and it’s held during the summer, then I guess that would rule in most of the Royal family.

Would a Scot living in England get to vote? Come to think of it, would a Scot living in England at the time of independence automatically become English?

Maybe a huge registration process will have to take place before any possible referendum. The mind boggles!

[COCL2]

Or take my son as an example. His maternal grandfather was Scots, so presumably he could claim Scots nationality, despite never having been there.

[theredbarron]

The electoral register which both pro and anti propose for the referendum is that used for Scottish local government and parliamentary elections. Google it if you want the detail.

[althenick]

Of course Scotland will take a share of the UK National Debt.

Red Barron - From one Scot to another and talking about National responsibilty How much or many of the UK Dependencies & Overseas Territories should we also take on board?
Here pick some...

Anguilla
Bermuda
British Antarctic Territory
British Indian Ocean Territory
British Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Falkland Islands
Gibraltar
Montserrat
Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands
St Helena and St Helena Dependencies (Ascension and Tristan da Cunha)
South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia
The Turks & Caicos Islands

The Jumped up little McNazi seems very keen to take the assets but judging by his attitude towards Faslavatory, et al he's not big on responisibility - which lets face it - most of the BRITISH Empire was built as a union. Perhaps we should remind him of this

Althenick
Scottish by Birth
British By Birthright
Proud of the Union's Acheivements
Ashamed of the Union's Attrocities
BUT IM STILL BRITSH


... And just in case your wondering - I Support Lossie FC not fcuking Rangers

[Self Loading Freight]

It's not entirely clear the Northern Isles are actually British anyway. They were mortgaged to Scotland by Denmark and Norway in 1468 and 1469 as the dowry for Margaret when she married James III, a mortgage that could be redeemed if the cash was later forthcoming.

The curious thing about the mortgage is that it had no time limit on the redemption, something that remained an active bone of contention for hundreds of years afterwards. James VI performed some fancy diplomatic footwork to avoid having to respond to an attempt to pay off the mortgage - it was never quite the right time, alas - and there were subsequent approaches. The last one I know about was King Frederick V in the mid 18th century.

Nobody's ever been able to produce proof that the Danes (who got the islands of the northern sea when they split with Norway) renounced that right, and the Danes certainly don't think they have.

There's still plenty of oil up there... (possibly a billion barrels under Yesnaby near Stromness) and who wouldn't want to have the jewel-like Saxa Vord? (Don't answer that.)

[Canadian Break]

Oil

Redbaron, whilst I do as you suggest, and read up on International Law on International v National Waters why don't you bone up on your geography?

[HTB]

This extract is from the website of the Royal Regiment of Scotland; I'm not sure of the date the figures were "valid", but certainly post-2006.

"It costs £17.5 Million per annum to maintain one UK Infantry Regiment.
Contrast that with the proposed expenditure on Technology by the UK Defence Procurement Agency.

1. JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER: £7-£10 Billion
2. ASTUTE Attack Submarine: £3,498 Million..."

The list goes on to make other cost comparisons (with equipment and sytems since scrapped, such as Nimrod).

Not specified how many battalions in a regiment; assuming the quoted cost makes no allowance for operational deployment (so they mooch around in barracks, or hone their skills for patrolling the English/Scottish border to keep out marauding envious foreigners).

Could an independent Scotland afford this luxury (and this does not touch on the vastly higher cost for high tech aviation kit: "TYPHOON: - 89 new Typhoon combat jet fighter aircraft : £4.3 Billion" at 2006 estimates; obviously pro rata for your 8.5%, so about £400 million).

Mister B

[Biggus]

Does there have to be any specific winning margin in a referendum on independence for the result to be valid?

For example, if the result was

50.0001% for and 49.9999% against would a "yes" result be declared, or does there have to be say a 5% clear winning majority? What sort of mandate would such a result provide?


If the result is really close, is there not a danger of resentments/divisions being created in the Scottish population, possibly ultimately resulting in civil unrest? Especially if independence is closely voted for but doesn't go well initially.



I'm just thinking out loud.....not making an arguement for any particular course of action!

[HTB]

And, Biggus, as with all "first past the post" votes, those percentages could be the result of, say 50% of those eligible casting a vote - in no way representative of the whole population (so 25.0001% could decide the fate of a nation) - before anyone gets all het up, this is only illustrative of the vagaries of the voting system.

Just another thought on the military/defence aspect - who would be expected to pay the pensions for any "defecting" personnel?

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

What is a Scot?

Is it an accident of birth and arbitrary legislation or is it where your familal roots are?

A first cousin had a Scots mother but settled in England. A second cousin's father married a Scot and settled in Scotland.

Until Genealogical research became so popular he always considered himself wholly Scottish but now realises his roots are deep seated south of the border in Cumbria.

My mother was born in India and I have feelings for India but I am half Irish and have been there only once.

In the three cases cited our fathers were all English for generations so our roots are indisputably English.

Unravelling the Scottish identity will not be easy.

[Pontius Navigator]

TRB,

One anomaly would be Service voters that may have left their votes in Scotland when they repatriated to England.

I voted in Scotland for 2-3 years as my English vote was not needed.