CHF - Merlin Mk 4

[alfred_the_great]

When was the last time Royal embarked for a full deployment? It's not because we don't want them to, but because "main effort" drives the fact they physically can't do it beyond individual dets (CHF) or Coy's (RM).

I remember 1999 when quite a lot of CHF went to sea for a sustained period, and took part in a combination of exercises and operations. I would expect that type of deployment will happen again post-2015....

There have been a more than a few CHF types who've re-catted to grey lynx to get on in the promotion stakes, including a couple of bootnecks.

[minigundiplomat]

Having read the recent posts on this thread, I can see that there is less need for moderators on Pprune these days, and more need for gynaecologists.

No wonder the treasury is cutting through the military like a knife through butter. Inter-service banter is great, but every thread turns into a peeing competition.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Let's face it, in every crew room an exchange officer exists that has transferred from the navy. I currently have 3 and one just left that tried but got refused transfer by the navy. I personally only know of 1 that has went the other way......says it all really.

[furnace rats]

Fire 'n' forget

Some people will always seek the easy route.

[MaroonMan4]

MGD

Totally agree, if there are still arguments to be had after the political descion, lets make our airships earn their pay, not us at the squadron level.

There is this big ongoing study and of course PR12, both of which I am sure that CAS and his team will fight our corner. Even I as the most sceptical of senior officers recognise that in this extreme fiscal climate they are doing the best job possible at fighting tooth and nail for us at every stage. They managed to save the Tonkas and keep the Fisheads out of fixed wing, I am sure that they will be able to do the same with Merlin.

It isn't over yet, but it is not for us to slag each other off, trying to compare genitalia - that certainly ain't going to draw resolution, and don't we have some real enemies to fight?

[Hilife]

Wot, like "the Judean People's Front."

[Pheasant]

They managed to save the Tonkas and keep the Fisheads out of fixed wing, I am sure that they will be able to do the same with Merlin.

The sad thing is that in doing so the reputation of the RAF as an honest broker is being trashed and you, as a Service, are generally no longer trusted to tell the truth. People like CO JHC, CO MAA etc are not helping your cause one little bit.

The fact is maritime aviation from the sea is best done by maritime aviators (and I am including all elements from grubbers through aircrew to Wings of ships), the skillsets translate well to the battle ashore, but not necessarily vv.

[Unchecked]

Obviously can't agree with your first paragraph there Pheasant. After all, it was a certain RN 2* ex-Cmd JHC who sat down in front of the Merlin crews and told them that the Merlin would transfer, that 24 new chinooks would replace them, that they'd all remain employed and at benson. Is that not the biggest whopper of the lot ? If HE had stood up to the defence sec during SDSR, maybe those chinooks would be coming and this whole thread be mooted.

I do agree though that Maritime aviation should be done by maritime aviators. I will caveat though that with a bit of training it's not beyond the capabilities of the light blue, conniving, evil crabs.

[alfred_the_great]

Unchecked? Why would a 2* have anything to do with the SoS Defence? About the only people who get to call the latter are CDS and heads of Service, now amended to be be solely CDS. As much as I like the old JHC, he was more than a little naive to "promise" you such things.

[Odigron]

Pheasant,

I agree that maritime aviation is best done by those with the correct skill sets, but that does not drive the requirement for them to be RN, they could be any cap badge, as has been proven on numerous occasions. Sufficient maritime training and experience - yes, has to be RN - no.

[Unchecked]

Alfred

Yes, my mistake. Obviously he should have stood up through his chain of command. I thought he came across as a nice bloke too on the few occassions I found myself in an audience with him.

[Pheasant]

I agree that maritime aviation is best done by those with the correct skill sets, but that does not drive the requirement for them to be RN, they could be any cap badge, as has been proven on numerous occasions. Sufficient maritime training and experience - yes, has to be RN - no.

Odi and Unchecked,

There you go again assuming it is just about pilots and flying to the deck. It is not, it is a system of systems that starts with the stoker and chef and ends up (at sea) with the CO of the ship. All need to be air minded to make ops from the sea safe....it is not the pilot that decides the deck is within limits or authorises the take off it is usually the officer of the watch, CO of the ship or Wings - I am not aware that the RAF are qualified for any of these roles or have a desire to be so. Who sets the embarked standards and practices? Not the RAF because they have no-one with the depth of knowledge and experience to do so.

Although it may appear to be otherwise, I am not against the RAF...but it is their (senior level) arrogant assumption that "the RAF does it best, and if it flies it must belong to the RAF.." that makes me sick.

[Odigron]

Pheasant,

You missed my point, I never said that the RAF or AAC were best placed to do the role, I simply said that it wasn't RN only. I also specifically avoided saying Aircrew, because I understand your well placed point about the stoker upwards.

I feel, however, that you are being too stovepiped in capability terms, especially in this era of financial constraint. Your hypothesis suggests that Maritime/littoral capability can only/best be provided by a single Service - RN; with sufficient funds available, I might agree. But with the constraints being imposed on HM Forces, we need to do things smarter and I believe there are ways to achieve the goal and deliver the capabilities for much less cost - unfortunately, it would mean changing/rationalising the current systems - stovepiped capabilities just don't cut the mustard anymore.

Tough times ahead for all.

[Unchecked]

I'm not assuming anything and yes, I was only talking about pilots but I never mentioned anything of all the other key roles. Your paranoia puts you on the offensive again, I see.

Yes, the RN are the best people to do all of the jobs you mention, including the flying. Your pilots have been doing it for years, it is their niche, the RAF haven't and yes, in a perfect world it would remain that way. RAF PILOTS could though, with enough training and exposure, handle deck operations in RW aircraft if required and that is why I still maintain that the Merlin mk3 should remain with the RAF, the Merlin force should absorb some of the CHF crews into it to train the RAF in deck ops. For the limited amount of time that the CHF spend on deck then the marinisation of the mk3 is costly and unnecessary and we should not be wasting our taxpayers money on it.

So yeah, please do continue to have air-minded people aboard your ships, from the chef to the CO, but please, stop telling everyone that the RAF are incapable of landing a helicopter on them.

["Running in"]

Embarked Ops

I don't think anyone is saying that the RAF can't land on a ship. It's what goes on beyond the point of "chocks & lashings" that SME knowledge comes in. Again your facts are wrong about CHF embarking - heard of Auriga & Cougar? Sea Kings were on both with crews embarking between op tours. Surely it's obvious why CHF haven't embarked a full SQN recently? The whole idea for future force 2020 is to have a capabilty suited to fight "a war" not "the war". It's been decided (rightly) that littoral manouever is very much a part of that future force capability- hence the need for 3 CDO BDE and supporting arms including dedicated lift assets -CHF.
The point Pheasant has made but is falling on deaf ears is that to support the embarked helos there are a number of experienced aviators in key positions utilising their embarked experience to support ops safely. These include Wings, little F, upper air ops and other positions within Brigade. Have a quick straw poll in the crewroom on Monday - You'll need a wing cdr for wings, a sqn ldr for liitle f, a f/lt & a f/sgt for air ops-all aviators for a 2-3 year draft to an LPH. That's just a few positions - there are many more but i can't be asked to list them, it's Sat PM and it's beer o'clock. The point is there is much more to landing on a ship. Now ... Beer....

[Unchecked]

That's fair enough - but it's not fair enough to say pheasant was making the point that aviators were required for these roles because he really wasn't. Anyway, like I said, absorb some CHF into the Merlin force and surely these roles are fulfilled, along with bringing your QHI/QAI experience to train the crews how to land the birds on the LPH. This shouldn't take too long. This has surely got to be a better and cheaper option than :

Sack 50% Merlin aircrew
Sack or redistribute Merlin eng force
Re-role 50% Merlin aircrew to chinook
Re-role all CHF aircrew to Merlin (with all associated costs)
Marinise Merlin for sustained deck ops (embark only when reqd)
+ whatever else I may have missed !

[Odigron]

Don't disagree, but, in the future, those position don't have to be dark blue - any uniform colour could be trained.

Desired capability is not the issue - how to achieve it is.

I am not suggesting bin the RN here, I'm saying that we can't keep doing what we have done - we can't afford it. So how do we achieve the desired result with less money? There are many potential solutions - single coloured uniform for aviation (and I don't care what it is!) has got to be cheaper than 3 colours with the various chains of command and additional costs. I'd love to recommend maintaining the status quo, but I, for one, don't see that we have the funds to do it all. I am trying to be broad minded in what is clearly a single service minded environment.

["Running in"]

Or go for the really cheap option - give CHF those shiny new Chinnys I don't think your bosses would wear that one. In all seriousness no one wants to see guys lose jobs - hopefully it won't be quite as drastic as that? It would seem that the sums add up though as far as the powers that be are concerned.

[Pheasant]

But you guys are missing the point. To do aviation from the sea properly (including manning all of the positions mentioned by Running) takes a career of operating from the sea (and wanting to). You can't do this by attaching the odd one or two guys to an RAF unit, there needs to be sufficient mass to create a career path from Mid to Cdr and beyond. The RAF know this only too well which is exactly why they are arguing to maintain all the capability they can. The RN understand this which is why they are fighting so hard to retain CHF as a formed RN unit. It is why the RN are manning up F18s and carrier decks in the USN at this moment.

[Odigron]

I concede that there is futility in trying to espouse anything other than the current status quo. I accept that you have a view, which is shared by many, that I feel will not survive the current finacial situation - with that in mind, the risk is that littoral, as an unaffordable expense, will lose, if it is only RN that can do it.

No point in further discusion, as too many are entrenched in their beliefs with no thought of how to make it all happen in the future.