CHF - Merlin Mk 4

[Unchecked]

And of course the RN ending up with a frame they cannot do anything useful with will be the fault of the Crabs in Light Blue - no doubt we'll be sabotaging the airframe or something such pathetic.

No doubt this will feed Pheasant's 'follow a legal order' paranoid nonsense, but ask yourself why those in the RAF would want to train anyone that is ultimately going to put them out of a job?

My humble opinion is that the RN should be asking why the govt feels that their unique and vital capability doesn't deserve the best eqpt, why the new buy CH47 aren't going to them - the best cab for the job and the cheapest option all round. I think they pursue the Merlin agenda because a spot of crab bashing suits them best.

[dangermouse]

sonar etc

I am afraid jamesdevice that your historical knowledge is unsound


The basic EH101 Integrated Development Project was to develop several variants of a common helicopter;

Civil
Utility
MMI naval
RN naval

Of the above variants only the MMI aircraft was required to have a dipping sonar capability, the RN variant was exclusively a Sonobuoy user, fitted with provisions for but not with a sonar.

as the IDP was approaching closure the UK decided that the aircraft that had been developed against the IDP requirements was not what was wanted and a more capable aircraft (later named Merlin) was required. This had RTM322 engines an increased AUM and a dipping sonar.

DM

[andyy]

Having been privvy to much primary sources of info within the EH101 International Project Team, DOR(SEA), Westlands and private conversations from many involved at the coal face I have to both disagree & agree with DM to some degree.

The RTM322 was specified a very, very long time before the Active Dipping Sonar was a requirement. The two are not linked. The original requirement was written at a time when "passive sonar was king" and the RN did not envisage the cab going to sea with an ADS. However it is true that the original requirement called for the provision of facilities for ADS at a later date if necessary. What the requirement did not say was that ADS had to be provided whilst retaining the need for an AUM that still allowed the 4 hours time on station. The RN still wanted all of that, & naively thought that what it was going to get, but it was impossible. Westlands provided a hydraulic feed & voltage & when the ADS was finally specified, the RN were surprised that the weight had grown!

And no matter what the gearbox design experience of Agusta & Westland was, it is a fact that the gearbox was an Agusta workshare item & that it was not able to handle the power that the RTMs could deliver, or the power that the alternative Westland designed gearbox was supposed to be able to handle.

[high spirits]

Unchecked,
Training the RN to fly it will be a professional responsibility, but I take your point about a lack of motivation. There is a major problem with the whole transfer for the RAF. Who will want to stay, given that it is suddenly a big game of musical chairs where half of the chairs get removed in a oner?

Some light blue will have to stay around until the transfer is complete with the risk that their mates who jumped ship early now have a job and they don't. Or the second tourist who stays, doesnt quite achieve 'above average in the air', and has to start all over again, but 2 years behind his equivalent mucker who jumped before him=career foul. That is quite a dilemma.....

[dangermouse]

thanks to andyy

for the backup, however a review of the IDP aircraft build standard states that civil variants will use the CT7 and Military will use the T700 (effectively the same engine), there is no mention of RTM322 in the EH101 development plan. It was added when 'Merlin' was specified as a modified IDP EH101 variant that used a 'legacy' (ie IDP devloped) MGB.

DM

[Bengo]

If my aged brain is still remembering things aright the CT&/T700 was chosen because the DGA(N) at the start of the WG34-EHI-Merlin saga ( was it rocket Ron Holley?) still bore the scars of the Lynx development and vowed that there would never be another new helo engine developed in a new airframe on his watch.

Rolls then managed qualify and demonstrate the RTM 322 for the US Seahawk/Blackhawk so it could be deemed not to be a new engine. By then most of the PP's were flying on T700's anyway.

N

[Unchecked]

High spirits,

Agreed about the professional responsibility to train the RN - as per the RAF SH force will grit it's teeth and get on with it yet the rest of the services will find it within themselves to be spiteful and negative about how the crabs have screwed them over and how lazy or whatever they are etc etc.....yawn yawn.

The best option will probably be to jump early if one can. The question is where to? 50% of the force can apparently slot right into the new chinook buy, but only if that force stops taking on the reams of newbies sat in the horrific shawbury holding pot. If the much mooted Odiham PVR exodus happens, then that may help to some degree but if so many are jumping from the good-ship Odiham, then many may feel that it's not the best option to move into. And then we have puma, who will require some op experienced bods in a few years time, however they are well-manned and won't be needing many to boost their ranks. So, we'll be looking at those who are approaching the end of their initial engagements being shown the door because that will be the cheapest option to take. All of those that are above average in the air, shoved onto civvy street along with their considerable talents, just because it saves a few quid to help pay for one of the most half-baked rearranging of resources ever seen.

Basically, it's a pointless shafting of hard working and capable men and women.

[high spirits]

Unchecked,
Half baked, and unfunded - the usual buy now pay later attitude that has got the military into the present situation.

There is another massive disincentive to stay. How many flying hours would you expect to get between Op Tours? Enough to stay current, or maintain a rating? Not sure of the answer, Ive been away from the game for a while.

[jamesdevice]

Dangermouse
what you are overlooking is that before EH101 there was WG34, and that had been pretty much finished as a design as straight replacement for the Sea King. The later need for speciation into different types only came when others started demanding their pounds of flesh in the design.
Naval Staff requirement 6646 was issued in 1977, and the WG34 (with dipping sonar) was submitted in 1978 in response.That design had been worked on a Westland for some years and was close to finalisation. Then some prat had the idea of a joint venture with lots of variants. EHI as a company wasn't set up till 1980, there was massive delay as a new management tier took over, and then proceeded to cripple the design with excess weight
And don't forget that even when the design was finished they f'd up on the actual build. IBM (now part of Lockheed Martin) had to be called in to supervise system integration and eventually became the project leaders.
So you have a project designed by one company, redesigned and crippled by another, with the build split over two contractors (Westland and Agusta) and project managed by another. Its a wonder the thing ever flew

["Running in"]

"When I see an AAC or RN 'crewman' with an ounce of the skillset of his/her RAF counterpart"

Unchecked - I take it by such a statement you have served with all types? If not then you are basing your opinion on assumption.
The issue is that all 3 breeds carry out different roles - you are comparing apples & oranges. Junglie crewies are trained to navigate and are more involved in flight planning than their light blue counterparts. RAF crewmen are more involved in flight servicing compared to their junglie counterparts. Army crewmen/ gunners operate in small aircraft with a much more limited but valuable role they dont need to know how to operate a ramp in a similiar way that Ramp up (i assume he does down too) needs to "open a wildcat door and learn to operate lots of weapons" (god forbid anything military come onto the equation). All carry value within their own organisation & it seems to work just fine.

As for comparisons to instructional capability - again this is based on hearsay and assumption. That's fact - as no RAF crewman has carried out an exchange with CHF and therefore no one can make an unbiased assessment of the training pipeline. On the other hand several CHF crewmen have carried out loan exchanges to the light blue and can therefore make a judgement as they have seen both systems in action. Generally the feedback is that both systems fulfill their forces requirement - which as I said before are very different.
Several years back CHF tried 60 as an experiment but it was deemed excessively long with an end product short of entry standard for OCU, no gain but lots of pain with regard to time.

[onthebumline]

Unchecked,

You sound so serious about all this. Chill out dude, nobody at our level in the RN has it in for anbody in light blue. We are all just greatful to have a job and obviously don't want anyone to have to lose a job to facilitate this.

As for your silly idea about RAF crewman having a better skillset than his RN counterpart, this is total rubbish. I have flown lots with both and can assure you that they are equally capable of doing what is asked of them.

Try to remember that this is only SH flying we are talking about. Take off with some guys in back, fly to a grid, drop them off, fly home. Its not rocket science.

I hope you are PVRing because you sound deeply upset with your lot in the forces and I bet you bore the pi55 out of the guys who have to share a crewroom with you.

BL x

[dangermouse]

fair point

I never considered WG34 as that always seemed to be a paper project, I didnt realise that it got close-ish to selection.

Hence my comments regarding 101 specifically as that had an agreed way ahead and build standard.

ALL the PPs had GE engines fitted, PP4 and 5 were retrofitted with RTMs once 'Merlin' was launched


DM

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by onthebumline

Unchecked,



Try to remember that this is only SH flying we are talking about. Take off with some guys in back, fly to a grid, drop them off, fly home. Its not rocket science.



BL x

You haven't done very much of this have you

[GipsyMagpie]

Ramp up, ramp down....

Nope, not that hard.....nor is counting down from ten missing out 7 and 9.

[onthebumline]

Seldomfitforpurpose,

For perspective, I am a 2K hour SH QHI with temperate and obviously desert op experience and amphib, jungle and artic non-op experience. I am not trumpet blowing meerly saying that I am not as experienced as some here and more so than others.

The point I am putting across is that SH 'flying' is no more complicated than getting a helicopter to a location with some guys or kit in the back and dropping it of, then returning home. Indeed applying some tactical principles to this process that makes it different from civvy flying.

The thing I find hard to grasp in military flying (conversion) training is why an experienced civvy pilot can convert from one type to another in a couple of weeks with a few hours of ground school, some sim and a handful of aircraft hours. Granted that it would take a few more hours on a mil type to learn subtle differences in tactics and DAS etc, but it certainely shouldn't be taking 10+ months and about 80 aircraft hours to convert people.

Instead of doing it using the civvy model, we have to say no no no you are a SK pilot.......you need to learn a how to navigate a merlin......or you are a lynx pilot, you have to learn how to do a CAD in a chinook. Ultimately it is all the same rubbish in a different frame and the fleet disagreements and diferences in opinion of how things should be done just wastes millions of taxpayer $ which we apparantely don't have at the moment.

I am sure you will read this and again retort a 'this guy dosen't know his arse from his elbow' comment. But have a think about it, and really the whole SH game is a piece of piss made complicated by people making up fancy procedures and methods so they can banter other fleets about how SH1t they are.

I reckon that if I really had to, I could teach an experienced guy in a couple of hours how to start my aircraft type, and then could pretty much just let them have a go and figure it out. This is certainely the way it used to be done before we had billions to blow on luxuries like flying training.

BL

[Unchecked]

But back to crewmen, where this started from my blasé and slightly generalised and unfair comment, they of other fleets are not selected by the same standards nor trained in the same breadth of topics and knowledge of their RAF counterparts. I am basing this statement not on opinion or conjecture, but by the admission of RN & AAC crewmen that I have trained and worked with. Admittedly, they have picked up the thrust of it ( things like weight & balance) in short order, but it's having that training in the first place that sets them apart.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Originally Posted by onthebumline

Seldomfitforpurpose,

For perspective, I am a 2K hour SH QHI with temperate and obviously desert op experience and amphib, jungle and artic non-op experience. I am not trumpet blowing meerly saying that I am not as experienced as some here and more so than others.


BL

Strangely enough before crossing over to fixed wing I was a 2k hour SH crewman who can vouch for the fact that anyone who thinks it's as simple as


"Try to remember that this is only SH flying we are talking about. Take off with some guys in back, fly to a grid, drop them off, fly home. Its not rocket science."

Really has not grasped the whole of the SH thing, a thought for you, how many hooks under a Chinook.................

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

GW,

The reason you don't get it, and I suspect never will is that it's way beyond your limited mindset, not your fault but when you only have small aircraft to play with but try to step outside the box on this one.

Never done it myself as I was a Puma crewman till I went Hercs but do you reckon you could, as it stands and without any further training what so ever, voice marshall a Chinook overhead a triple load whilst working out which load goes on which hook etc etc etc.

Or do you think that with a short fixed wing cross over course you could then convert to the C130J or C17.......

For RAF ALM,s that's not rocket science

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Probably, sorry chap but that cuts very little mustard in the big scheme of things.

Of course you could always try selection to see if you actually have what it takes

[high spirits]

Onthebumline,
Some of your comment I agree with. Your experience is similar to mine. I think that conversion could be as much or as little as you like for an experienced SH pilot. Competence arrives at about the 100 hour mark in the MK3 for the experienced crossover pilot IMHO. There are of course significant airframe and cockpit differences that will sap ones capacity, but after that it is just a helicopter....

The trouble is that we now have CI defined syllabi for arctic, desert, jungle etc that sap even more hours. The Merlin conversion in terms of ac hours is significantly less than 80 hours for the RN. The sim heavy course is probably a bit of arse covering by the system. They don't want you getting the lawyers involved when you stand up in court and claim that you had never seen that emergency before. The reason it has taken up to 10 months is due to airframe availability.

As I said, conversion is what you want it to be. Not going down the wrong part of the FRC when you are below icy cloud in poor vis at night and making the wrong decision is competency and captaincy