Is this Fair?
I agree that given the MOD statements on 'flying training redundancies' they would find it hard to back peddle and just show you the door. However, we have proved year after year that just because there is a course of A* students doesn't mean they will all get what they want. How many pilots have been given a 'single seat rec' at Valley/Tac Wpns only to be posted to the GR1/4 or F3 because there weren't the places on the single seat OCUs (perhaps because the others on the course were better ....) or been streamed to a role/fleet other than that of their wish because that was where the demand for new pilots was? It could be argued that the current situation is no different - places are fewer therefore the number required is less and so only the very best get through (i.e the goalposts move and those who fall by the wayside have 'failed to achieve the required standard').
The point I am making is that those who are being shown the door whilst still under training are, IMHO, "lucky" (and before I'm flamed please note the use of the " "
) to be offered exit on redundancy terms. There are an awful lot of people who have got much further through the system (including onto squadrons) who, when failing to meet the standard applicable at that time, have been shown the door with liitle more than a "don't forget to hand your watch back". Of course, the flip side to this is there may also be quite a few aircrew on squadrons now who only got through the system because the demand was high and the standards at the time were low!!
As before, good luck in whatever path you choose to follow.
The point I am making is that those who are being shown the door whilst still under training are, IMHO, "lucky" (and before I'm flamed please note the use of the " "
) to be offered exit on redundancy terms. There are an awful lot of people who have got much further through the system (including onto squadrons) who, when failing to meet the standard applicable at that time, have been shown the door with liitle more than a "don't forget to hand your watch back". Of course, the flip side to this is there may also be quite a few aircrew on squadrons now who only got through the system because the demand was high and the standards at the time were low!!As before, good luck in whatever path you choose to follow.
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If the RAF took the line of "failed to meet required standard" then all these chaps would be very happy as it wouldn't take a tribunal long to discover that this was not the case, and they'd be back flying or with a very hefty payout.
Sadly, I'm not sure if there will be any suitable legal course as it's down to service need.
You all are the victims of some terrible decisions by people who are not affected and may have moved on some time ago. The only real positive out of this is those of us lucky enough to be doing the job should feel very lucky (perhaps we haven't of late) and maybe not be so quick to complain.
Good luck to you and all your peers.
Sadly, I'm not sure if there will be any suitable legal course as it's down to service need.
You all are the victims of some terrible decisions by people who are not affected and may have moved on some time ago. The only real positive out of this is those of us lucky enough to be doing the job should feel very lucky (perhaps we haven't of late) and maybe not be so quick to complain.
Good luck to you and all your peers.
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****e day today at Cradnitz IOT, 22 Pilots found out theyre not branched Pilot anymore , the same day as Champagne Tues. At least the GC told them all personally their through or not to Pilot. Good luck all.
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Second, an individual is not made redundant. His job is. Therefore, someone can't be told to go and another moved into his place
My trade encountered similar circumstances many years ago in the 90s when we all were made redundant. One day we wore the Queen’s Uniform, the next day the one of the Company that had taken over the contract. Same job, less money, more grief. How did they get away with it? Change the job description
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Beg to differ on that one
How did they get away with it? Change the job description
As has been said already, many of the young men and women who have been so abruptly short-changed on their dreams will be very high quality candidates for a myriad of other careers. Probably doesn't help much right now, but its a fact. Again, to repeat others, look forwards not back...and don't dwell too long on the rights or wrongs of the process, get on with the rest of your life. Good Luck.
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Second, an individual is not made redundant. His job is. Therefore, someone can't be told to go and another moved into his place
So in a way the workforce was replaced
As for me, it worked out for the better. Haven’t looked back once! Better life etc
Good luck to all the peeps in that situation
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Back to the original question:
No! It's not fair young man, but whatever...
Many of those being made redundant are not in their early 20's, footloose and fancy-free. Many of them have mortgages and children and responsibilities, why do you all think the PPrune community should care any more about some unproven young kids than guys and girls who have already given the Service everything for years on end - and still get dumped on the scrapheap.
If the RAF doesn't owe it's veterans a living, it certainly owes baby pilots
all.
CS
No! It's not fair young man, but whatever...
Many of those being made redundant are not in their early 20's, footloose and fancy-free. Many of them have mortgages and children and responsibilities, why do you all think the PPrune community should care any more about some unproven young kids than guys and girls who have already given the Service everything for years on end - and still get dumped on the scrapheap.
If the RAF doesn't owe it's veterans a living, it certainly owes baby pilots
all.CS
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Whilst Camel's statement of out current situation is sadly close to the truth, I'd just like to say.
Camel you are a massive bell! These young Officers may not be 'owed' anything but one thing is for certain, I'd rather have any of them on my wing than you. I would say for certain that despite their lack of experience their work ethic is 10 times yours and they are a lot less poisonous to those around them.
Rant off - now where the rest of that bottle.
Camel you are a massive bell! These young Officers may not be 'owed' anything but one thing is for certain, I'd rather have any of them on my wing than you. I would say for certain that despite their lack of experience their work ethic is 10 times yours and they are a lot less poisonous to those around them.
Rant off - now where the rest of that bottle.
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How depressing.
One posts in support of the qualities to be found in all RAF Aircrew and then along comes a couple of flyboys intent on demonstrating the reverse to be true.
Get a life.
One posts in support of the qualities to be found in all RAF Aircrew and then along comes a couple of flyboys intent on demonstrating the reverse to be true.
Get a life.
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Thanks for your replies everyone. Obviously a pretty poor time for those involved, I appreciate all your advice - it was a friendly query looking for a bit of help.
Camelspyyder - I think you should take a long hard look at yourself, a totally uncalled for comment. Get a grip and try and show a little bit of respect to the hundreds serving who are having their dreams ruined.
Camelspyyder - I think you should take a long hard look at yourself, a totally uncalled for comment. Get a grip and try and show a little bit of respect to the hundreds serving who are having their dreams ruined.
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I really feel for you all,
For what its worth, I got shafted too, I was at the time I was asked to sign on going for 22 which was offered, but was told by some WO clerk to go for 15 then extend, rules changed and I was screwed... heck I even put in a redress to see the AOC.........you have to see to believe the WO admin..... O/C admin... Staish cr+p and pressure to withdraw my application to see the AOC that was put on me...... (looks bad for the station and those running it)
It took me saying if it was refused / blocked I would walk onto the AOC's parade whilst it was in progress straight up to the guy and tell him why i was there......... got my time in front of him and still was not satisfied, so I told him I was redressing him as he was obviously not in a position to do anything, SWO and Co present nearly fainted.
I then got a letter saying reviewed etc but no, what really pissed me off was the fact i could not take it further and no one in authority had the balls to stand up and tell me to my face.
Do I still regret leaving at the time........... Yes
Did I leave at the right time?............ Yes
At the time Civi street were desperate for engineers and with my RAF career and a lot of self study I am fully licenced and C certed.
Ohhh how I feel for people now being dumped onto a market where fully licenced or type rated ATPL civilian pilots and engineers cannot find enployment, I know the feeling
Would I have taken the same actions again.................. YES
If I was still in and it was going to happen again as it is now.......... would I try to fight it. YES
If this is your dream then fight for it. if you don't you may find you regret not trying in your future life........ It is in your hands, no one elses, "rocking the boat in the RAF" counts for squat once out of those gates ,you only have one chance in life to fight for what you want, so choose wisely, based on your circumstances.... BTW it is illegal to give anyone a bad reference.
As to the civilianising of jobs etc...... you can be made redundant and that job cannot be filled within a set time scale ......... however a different job covering your post but slightly changed and under a different description can be filled
So Chief Bottlewasher
could become Glass bottle recycling and cleansing manager
sucks don't it.
For what its worth, I got shafted too, I was at the time I was asked to sign on going for 22 which was offered, but was told by some WO clerk to go for 15 then extend, rules changed and I was screwed... heck I even put in a redress to see the AOC.........you have to see to believe the WO admin..... O/C admin... Staish cr+p and pressure to withdraw my application to see the AOC that was put on me...... (looks bad for the station and those running it)
It took me saying if it was refused / blocked I would walk onto the AOC's parade whilst it was in progress straight up to the guy and tell him why i was there......... got my time in front of him and still was not satisfied, so I told him I was redressing him as he was obviously not in a position to do anything, SWO and Co present nearly fainted.
I then got a letter saying reviewed etc but no, what really pissed me off was the fact i could not take it further and no one in authority had the balls to stand up and tell me to my face.
Do I still regret leaving at the time........... Yes
Did I leave at the right time?............ Yes
At the time Civi street were desperate for engineers and with my RAF career and a lot of self study I am fully licenced and C certed.
Ohhh how I feel for people now being dumped onto a market where fully licenced or type rated ATPL civilian pilots and engineers cannot find enployment, I know the feeling
Would I have taken the same actions again.................. YES
If I was still in and it was going to happen again as it is now.......... would I try to fight it. YES
If this is your dream then fight for it. if you don't you may find you regret not trying in your future life........ It is in your hands, no one elses, "rocking the boat in the RAF" counts for squat once out of those gates ,you only have one chance in life to fight for what you want, so choose wisely, based on your circumstances.... BTW it is illegal to give anyone a bad reference.
As to the civilianising of jobs etc...... you can be made redundant and that job cannot be filled within a set time scale ......... however a different job covering your post but slightly changed and under a different description can be filled
So Chief Bottlewasher
could become Glass bottle recycling and cleansing manager
sucks don't it.
Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Mar 2011 at 21:26.
Legal it is.
Fairness does not come into it as far as 'fair' means paying attention to personal preferences is concerned.
When a surplus exists within a trade group/skill group, it is up to the employer to decide who stays and who goes, as long as they do not breach any sex or racial discrimination rules. It is not uncommon to have people wishing to leave being refused, and those wishing to stay being asked to leave.
I have no idea of the particular circumstances to which you refer, nor do I need to know, but typically this happens when the group wishing to go have higher long term benefits to the employer and may be expensive to release. They can in industry frequently be the least flexible and a royal PITA which may seem a contradiction but usually is not.
Those wishing to leave are often less experienced, cheaper to release and of relatively replaceable quality. They may also have jobs lined up due to their less specialised background, lower cost of employment and flexibility, but importantly in industry, they are hoping to be paid to leave, and to walk into a better job.
While none of this may apply to the OP, it is common elsewhere and shapes the way organisations handle staff level reductions.
Nobody could say it is completely fait but the employer has to be able to continue in business, and their choices are made to support that rationale - not the preferences of leaving staff.
Fairness does not come into it as far as 'fair' means paying attention to personal preferences is concerned.
When a surplus exists within a trade group/skill group, it is up to the employer to decide who stays and who goes, as long as they do not breach any sex or racial discrimination rules. It is not uncommon to have people wishing to leave being refused, and those wishing to stay being asked to leave.
I have no idea of the particular circumstances to which you refer, nor do I need to know, but typically this happens when the group wishing to go have higher long term benefits to the employer and may be expensive to release. They can in industry frequently be the least flexible and a royal PITA which may seem a contradiction but usually is not.
Those wishing to leave are often less experienced, cheaper to release and of relatively replaceable quality. They may also have jobs lined up due to their less specialised background, lower cost of employment and flexibility, but importantly in industry, they are hoping to be paid to leave, and to walk into a better job.
While none of this may apply to the OP, it is common elsewhere and shapes the way organisations handle staff level reductions.
Nobody could say it is completely fait but the employer has to be able to continue in business, and their choices are made to support that rationale - not the preferences of leaving staff.
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Get hard copies of any and all personal/flying reports that you can lay your hands on.
You never know when you might need them, especially if the story changes later on...
You never know when you might need them, especially if the story changes later on...
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Sincere apologies for offence caused by my last post which was both ill-considered and badly written.
There are however, not 170 redundancies in tranche 1 but 1000+, and I feel most will think it "unfair".
Many of those will be less able, or less well placed, to manage their future than the highly qualified and talented youth who are being let go.
It all comes down to money in the end, and I have no idea how much it would cost to train 170 pilots that the service does not need - but I do know that today's military can't afford it.
CS
There are however, not 170 redundancies in tranche 1 but 1000+, and I feel most will think it "unfair".
Many of those will be less able, or less well placed, to manage their future than the highly qualified and talented youth who are being let go.
It all comes down to money in the end, and I have no idea how much it would cost to train 170 pilots that the service does not need - but I do know that today's military can't afford it.
CS
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Camelspyyder - I think you should take a long hard look at yourself, a totally uncalled for comment. Get a grip and try and show a little bit of respect to the hundreds serving who are having their dreams ruined.
You see, you are not the only one to have the rug pulled out from under them. Why would you want to sue the MOD for money it hasn't got? Money that would have to be diverted away from the troops on the front line to pay you. How much respect are you showing those fighting in Afghanistan?
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Kreuger
You're stretching it a bit there mate!
Why would you want to sue the MOD for money it hasn't got? Money that would have to be diverted away from the troops on the front line to pay you. How much respect are you showing those fighting in Afghanistan?
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What's fair got to do with it?
The world doesn't owe anybody a living and the MOD is no different. A sad time without doubt and those affected have my deepest sympathies, but legal action?
Like that Harrier chap who was reported to have had a dig at the PM over the axing of his fleet. He was reported to have said words to the effect of 'What about me'! Well yes, what about you?
I realise that this post will make me sound cold and heartless and for that I apologise. My point is that we all need to wake up to the 'new world' and realise that although this is not fair, neither is life in general.
The world doesn't owe anybody a living and the MOD is no different. A sad time without doubt and those affected have my deepest sympathies, but legal action?
Like that Harrier chap who was reported to have had a dig at the PM over the axing of his fleet. He was reported to have said words to the effect of 'What about me'! Well yes, what about you?
I realise that this post will make me sound cold and heartless and for that I apologise. My point is that we all need to wake up to the 'new world' and realise that although this is not fair, neither is life in general.
As the OP is in the early stages of flying training no doubt (s)he is too young to have children of their own.
Most parents try to ensure that their children are treated fairly as they grow up. However, one of sad duties of a parent is to teach the child, when it is old enough to understand, that, much as we would wish it to be otherwise, THE WORLD IS NOT ACTUALLY A FAIR PLACE!
Perhaps the OPs parents did not pass this lesson on?
While I can sympathise with youngsters who have had their chosen career path "unfairly" taken away from them, which I agree they have, I only have a limited amount of sympathy to give, and I consider there are more deserving cases for my sympathy throughout this globe of ours....
By the way, if anyone cares to read post 76 on this thread
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...clogged-4.html
they will see the advice that I offered on this very subject some 2 months ago!
Best of luck to those being made redundant from flying training, but they are all young, healthy, intelligent and proactive. They will survive. Who knows, for some of them it might turn out to be better to have your dream taken away now than have it turn to dissolution once they experience the reality of much of the RAF of today. This experience was in some ways a foretaste of what you would have had to come...
Most parents try to ensure that their children are treated fairly as they grow up. However, one of sad duties of a parent is to teach the child, when it is old enough to understand, that, much as we would wish it to be otherwise, THE WORLD IS NOT ACTUALLY A FAIR PLACE!
Perhaps the OPs parents did not pass this lesson on?
While I can sympathise with youngsters who have had their chosen career path "unfairly" taken away from them, which I agree they have, I only have a limited amount of sympathy to give, and I consider there are more deserving cases for my sympathy throughout this globe of ours....
By the way, if anyone cares to read post 76 on this thread
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...clogged-4.html
they will see the advice that I offered on this very subject some 2 months ago!
Best of luck to those being made redundant from flying training, but they are all young, healthy, intelligent and proactive. They will survive. Who knows, for some of them it might turn out to be better to have your dream taken away now than have it turn to dissolution once they experience the reality of much of the RAF of today. This experience was in some ways a foretaste of what you would have had to come...
Last edited by Biggus; 9th Mar 2011 at 11:29.