Is this Fair?
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Is this Fair?
Ok first of all I've obviously had some bad news recently...
Does anyone know where I stand 'legally' in terms of rights of appeal - ive obviously been made redundant despite committing to the Air Force, yet ive heard of some Chinook Pilots at Odiham who have PVR'd early and are having to take legal action to get out! How can the Air Force have it both ways? Surely I must have a right of appeal or some sort of legal leg to stand on, can anybody help?
Does anyone know where I stand 'legally' in terms of rights of appeal - ive obviously been made redundant despite committing to the Air Force, yet ive heard of some Chinook Pilots at Odiham who have PVR'd early and are having to take legal action to get out! How can the Air Force have it both ways? Surely I must have a right of appeal or some sort of legal leg to stand on, can anybody help?
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Mate, good legal advice would be one of the better places to start, but check out those with a good track record in that particular specialisation.
Clearly the outcome is extremely important to you, and more so from a temporal point of view given the aspect of continuity with flying training. However you should remember the legal brains you may choose to represent you, will get paid whether you win or lose, hence the caveat of getting GOOD legal advice.
As other posters have implied, you are in the top part of society with brains, apptitude and I assume youth on your side, so whilst the dream may slip from your grasp, the other opportunities for bright young men are many, varied and in certain fields - ultimately very rewarding.
If you really want to stay flying, you could consider moving to Oz and look at the RAAF, I hear F18/35's are going to need crewing.
Look forward not back, and good luck,
Clearly the outcome is extremely important to you, and more so from a temporal point of view given the aspect of continuity with flying training. However you should remember the legal brains you may choose to represent you, will get paid whether you win or lose, hence the caveat of getting GOOD legal advice.
As other posters have implied, you are in the top part of society with brains, apptitude and I assume youth on your side, so whilst the dream may slip from your grasp, the other opportunities for bright young men are many, varied and in certain fields - ultimately very rewarding.
If you really want to stay flying, you could consider moving to Oz and look at the RAAF, I hear F18/35's are going to need crewing.
Look forward not back, and good luck,
UK employment law is fairly well entrenched and fairly objective, although it is open to a certain amount of interpretation. I went through a redundancy a few years ago and managed to get better terms as a result of a little research and being foreceful with my claims. But here are a few pointers.
First, the redundancy process has to take a period of time - usually three months. Although the law accepts that paying three months of pay instead is acceptable if the decision is that the redundancy is inevitable. Second, an individual is not made redundant. His job is. Therefore, someone can't be told to go and another moved into his place - which is why some pilots on some fleets may be OK. Third, the selection of candidates must be fair and follow laid down criteria such as 'Last In First Out' - although this in itself is not necessarily a selection process.
It's complex and if you feel you want to have a protest, you should seek legal advice rather than soliciting opinions here. But the MoD are no different to any employer and have to follow the law.
First, the redundancy process has to take a period of time - usually three months. Although the law accepts that paying three months of pay instead is acceptable if the decision is that the redundancy is inevitable. Second, an individual is not made redundant. His job is. Therefore, someone can't be told to go and another moved into his place - which is why some pilots on some fleets may be OK. Third, the selection of candidates must be fair and follow laid down criteria such as 'Last In First Out' - although this in itself is not necessarily a selection process.
It's complex and if you feel you want to have a protest, you should seek legal advice rather than soliciting opinions here. But the MoD are no different to any employer and have to follow the law.
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Er the fact your a fast jet jockey and not a helicopter chap, must make it clear why its happening in just the same way they got shot of bean counters and kept the caterers!! Sorry old chap its they way of the world.
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This is not to belittle your current position, or your feelings, but a move downunder probably needs to be on your list of possibilities.
It's been done many times before, admittedly by dark blue mostly. In the 70s, when Ark Royal no 4 was scuttled, many FJ guys went to the RAN. In the early 80s, when the HMAS Melbourne met the same fate, many Aussies ended up flying the (mighty) Shar.
The RAAF is certainly short of crews for the forseeable future...
I heard on the grapevine that the amount saved on the defence force cuts would be 0.1% of the total NHS budget! It may be a rumour, of course, but even if it is close to being true, it just shows how pollies will always be pollies, no matter what side of the fence they're on.
Good luck.
It's been done many times before, admittedly by dark blue mostly. In the 70s, when Ark Royal no 4 was scuttled, many FJ guys went to the RAN. In the early 80s, when the HMAS Melbourne met the same fate, many Aussies ended up flying the (mighty) Shar.
The RAAF is certainly short of crews for the forseeable future...
I heard on the grapevine that the amount saved on the defence force cuts would be 0.1% of the total NHS budget! It may be a rumour, of course, but even if it is close to being true, it just shows how pollies will always be pollies, no matter what side of the fence they're on.
Good luck.
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The Air Force doesn't change. At least you may get some form of redundancy payout. Not so 40 odd years ago. They kicked me out and I had to pay them.
I had no intention of purchasing my discharge when I was up in front of the flight commander for some minor infringement in 1968. Never even entered my mind. I am quite sure that he raised it as a suggestion, and I must have nodded or something because next minute he had the application forms out of his desk drawer and ready to go. I was aware that it was considered insubordination if a person attempted to back out once it was being "discussed". So I was trapped. Two weeks later I was out, on the dole in Hull in the middle of Winter. Not a happy person at all.
Sometimes wonder whether he didn't have a "quota" of "redundancies" to meet. Wouldn't surprise me.
I had no intention of purchasing my discharge when I was up in front of the flight commander for some minor infringement in 1968. Never even entered my mind. I am quite sure that he raised it as a suggestion, and I must have nodded or something because next minute he had the application forms out of his desk drawer and ready to go. I was aware that it was considered insubordination if a person attempted to back out once it was being "discussed". So I was trapped. Two weeks later I was out, on the dole in Hull in the middle of Winter. Not a happy person at all.
Sometimes wonder whether he didn't have a "quota" of "redundancies" to meet. Wouldn't surprise me.
To play devils advocate, if the MoD really wanted to play 'hardball' it could just change the wording for all those being forced out from the flying training system as "failed to meet required standard" [the goalposts move all the time, cutbacks or not]. That way, like the hundreds before you that were "chopped" (despite committing to the Air Force (your words)), the MoD have not had to pay a penny in compensation/redundancy (AFAIK) or even provide any sort of resettlement training.
Be very careful before taking legal action - as I think has been said on other threads the 'no win no fee' chaps will stay well clear so you could end up losing what little redundancy payments are on offer (plus probably a bit more) paying a lawyer to fight your battle. There are a lot of lawyers on this site - but you'll notice none of them are offering advice for free
Good luck in whatever path you follow.
Be very careful before taking legal action - as I think has been said on other threads the 'no win no fee' chaps will stay well clear so you could end up losing what little redundancy payments are on offer (plus probably a bit more) paying a lawyer to fight your battle. There are a lot of lawyers on this site - but you'll notice none of them are offering advice for free
Good luck in whatever path you follow.
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ExFJ85,
I'm very sorry to hear of your troubles, it can't be any fun at all. In answer to your question, and to reiterate what others have said, there's no point asking for unqualified opinions such as those you will see being bandied around PPrune, however well-intentioned they may be; such opinions are not going to dig you out of the hole you find yourself in at the moment.
When I was looking to leave, I looked long and hard at the law as it stood (I believe the relevant statute is the Employment Rights Act 1996, but I believe it has been amended since then). When you do so (use Google), you will notice that the military is exempt from large parts of the Act - so beware people quoting rights that exist for civilians and saying that this is what you're entitled to, because these supposed 'rights' may or may not apply to you. Fair? No. Legal? Yes. Which is particularly galling if you find that the law appears to favour the military and seems to go against natural justice, but sadly that is the way of the world.
I know a number of lawyers personally, and I know of none that will take on military personnel disputing employment issues, mainly because the military can often change the rules as it sees fit, c.f. royal perogative. Your best bet I think is to consult with a specialist employment solicitor (and I expect that the first consultation may be free). Just think long and hard before committing to a legal process, because like divorces, there is likely to be only one winner in the end. And that's the lawyer.
That said, I know there are sadly a number of you in the same position, so clubbing together to get an initial legal opinion may well be something you may wish to investigate, and if a solicitor feels that your case has some merit then initiating some form of class action may interest them enough to take it on on a no-win no-fee basis. It can't hurt to ask, but ask a professional.
SBW
I'm very sorry to hear of your troubles, it can't be any fun at all. In answer to your question, and to reiterate what others have said, there's no point asking for unqualified opinions such as those you will see being bandied around PPrune, however well-intentioned they may be; such opinions are not going to dig you out of the hole you find yourself in at the moment.
When I was looking to leave, I looked long and hard at the law as it stood (I believe the relevant statute is the Employment Rights Act 1996, but I believe it has been amended since then). When you do so (use Google), you will notice that the military is exempt from large parts of the Act - so beware people quoting rights that exist for civilians and saying that this is what you're entitled to, because these supposed 'rights' may or may not apply to you. Fair? No. Legal? Yes. Which is particularly galling if you find that the law appears to favour the military and seems to go against natural justice, but sadly that is the way of the world.
I know a number of lawyers personally, and I know of none that will take on military personnel disputing employment issues, mainly because the military can often change the rules as it sees fit, c.f. royal perogative. Your best bet I think is to consult with a specialist employment solicitor (and I expect that the first consultation may be free). Just think long and hard before committing to a legal process, because like divorces, there is likely to be only one winner in the end. And that's the lawyer.
That said, I know there are sadly a number of you in the same position, so clubbing together to get an initial legal opinion may well be something you may wish to investigate, and if a solicitor feels that your case has some merit then initiating some form of class action may interest them enough to take it on on a no-win no-fee basis. It can't hurt to ask, but ask a professional.
SBW
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As one of those in Pool 1 finding out tomorrow, I've already looked into the RAAF as a possibility, sadly they aren't taking laterals at this moment, and when they do they want fully qualified pilots.
The original poster might stand a chance, but currently they aren't recruiting lateral pilots.
I'm still awaiting a reply from the Canadian Air Force...
The original poster might stand a chance, but currently they aren't recruiting lateral pilots.
I'm still awaiting a reply from the Canadian Air Force...
With reference to Wrathmonks earlier comment, I think the RAF would find it difficult to play the "failed to meet the required standard" card, given all that has already been published and released by the RAF, both in internal documents and statements to the media.
There can no doubt that this issue is one of some unfortunate individuals being made redundant, rather than failing during training.
There can no doubt that this issue is one of some unfortunate individuals being made redundant, rather than failing during training.
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How do you know you've been made redundant already ?
LW,
I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to the pilots under training. They may not be out of the RAF until Sep 11, I don't know, but I believe they will be selected, or de-selected, about now, and cease flying training.
I believe WSO training has already stopped, and those WSOs that were already in the pipeline have been told something along the lines of they are up for rebranching or redundancy, probably the latter. But my knowledge of that is incomplete.
I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to the pilots under training. They may not be out of the RAF until Sep 11, I don't know, but I believe they will be selected, or de-selected, about now, and cease flying training.
I believe WSO training has already stopped, and those WSOs that were already in the pipeline have been told something along the lines of they are up for rebranching or redundancy, probably the latter. But my knowledge of that is incomplete.
Not if you're in the pool of those recently withdrawn from pilot/WSO training!
To add to the sentiments above, the original poster has my sympathy but I would doubt that legal action would succeed. I also question whether the RCAF (or modern equivalent!) or RAAF has any great need for those who aren't already qualified (and by qualified I mean previously CR as opposed to 'wings' etc). That isn't to say that it is all doom and gloom; the airlines from what I can gather (am a WSO myself so no real interest!) are starting to recruit, and the grass may well be greener!
To all those in the pool (from one who has a close interest) good luck
To add to the sentiments above, the original poster has my sympathy but I would doubt that legal action would succeed. I also question whether the RCAF (or modern equivalent!) or RAAF has any great need for those who aren't already qualified (and by qualified I mean previously CR as opposed to 'wings' etc). That isn't to say that it is all doom and gloom; the airlines from what I can gather (am a WSO myself so no real interest!) are starting to recruit, and the grass may well be greener!
To all those in the pool (from one who has a close interest) good luck
Biggus, great minds!
Wot he said. I have heard figures of around a 30% chance of rebranching...
I believe WSO training has already stopped, and those WSOs that were already in the pipeline have been told something along the lines of they are up for rebranching or redundancy, probably the latter. But my knowledge of that is incomplete.
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I don't see how trying to go the commercial route is going to help these guys either. Assumeing that if still in training, they will have 300 ( max ) hrs, possibly no MCC or other relevant quals. Not exactly attractive to an operator, though if a ME guy was getting the axe it would not be an impossible task to get to a position to put yourself up for a job with a cargo operator.
What a bummer, looks like Maverick really will be flying rubber dog #hit out of Hong Kong
What a bummer, looks like Maverick really will be flying rubber dog #hit out of Hong Kong
I remember having a similar argument when an IOT flt cdr in the early 80s. Cadets who failed to meet the standard were to be told they had "failed". My line was that as the RAF selected them and trained them, how could the student then be told (s)he had "failed". The wording was changed to "failed to meet the standard required"