LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY
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Might have something to do with the US pulling out of air to ground missions.
Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign | World news | guardian.co.uk
(RAF to have a total of 12 Tornados deployed)
Does the RAAF want to get involved? A dozen or so Hornets. A few weeks ago K-Rudd was one of the more belligerent anti-Gadafi voices.
Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign | World news | guardian.co.uk
...
Until Monday, the Americans had performed most of the attacks on ground targets, with the French executing around a quarter and the British around a 10th. Given the US retreat, Nato is seeking to fill the gap, but only the British have pledged more.
...
Until Monday, the Americans had performed most of the attacks on ground targets, with the French executing around a quarter and the British around a 10th. Given the US retreat, Nato is seeking to fill the gap, but only the British have pledged more.
...
Does the RAAF want to get involved? A dozen or so Hornets. A few weeks ago K-Rudd was one of the more belligerent anti-Gadafi voices.
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0497
"Does the RAAF want to get involved? A dozen or so Hornets. A few weeks ago K-Rudd was one of the more belligerent anti-Gadafi voices."
Who has now gone strangely quiet on the subject and is focusing back on his home state of Queensland (ferrying foreign diplomats around today) and getting his old job of PM back !!!
I think he wanted the NFZ knowing full well that the Gov't would never commit planes to it.
.
"Does the RAAF want to get involved? A dozen or so Hornets. A few weeks ago K-Rudd was one of the more belligerent anti-Gadafi voices."
Who has now gone strangely quiet on the subject and is focusing back on his home state of Queensland (ferrying foreign diplomats around today) and getting his old job of PM back !!!
I think he wanted the NFZ knowing full well that the Gov't would never commit planes to it.
.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Torygraph: Air Force told to send more planes to Libya
Nato will ask the RAF to contribute more warplanes to step up ground strikes against Col Muammar Gaddafi’s forces after the alliance yesterday said a third of the Libyan leader’s forces had so far been destroyed.
Britain’s overstretched air force will be asked to find more fighter jets, in spite of committing four extra Tornados for operations over Libya on Monday.
The request comes as Nato demands extra aircraft to meet a shortfall created after America pulled out the jets that had carried out more than 50 per cent of the ground strikes against Col Gaddafi’s forces.
“We will need more strike assets and that is being addressed,” said a Nato official. “Britain has stepped up to the mark with four Tornados but will have to do more.” Dr Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, spent much of the weekend during a Middle East trip calling up defence ministers from across Europe asking them to contribute more aircraft, Whitehall sources said.
The Ministry of Defence is ready to send more Tornados and other aircraft “if they are needed” a senior source said. “We can send the whole lot if we need to, all 129 of them........"
Nato will ask the RAF to contribute more warplanes to step up ground strikes against Col Muammar Gaddafi’s forces after the alliance yesterday said a third of the Libyan leader’s forces had so far been destroyed.
Britain’s overstretched air force will be asked to find more fighter jets, in spite of committing four extra Tornados for operations over Libya on Monday.
The request comes as Nato demands extra aircraft to meet a shortfall created after America pulled out the jets that had carried out more than 50 per cent of the ground strikes against Col Gaddafi’s forces.
“We will need more strike assets and that is being addressed,” said a Nato official. “Britain has stepped up to the mark with four Tornados but will have to do more.” Dr Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, spent much of the weekend during a Middle East trip calling up defence ministers from across Europe asking them to contribute more aircraft, Whitehall sources said.
The Ministry of Defence is ready to send more Tornados and other aircraft “if they are needed” a senior source said. “We can send the whole lot if we need to, all 129 of them........"
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The Ministry of Defence is ready to send more Tornados and other aircraft “if they are needed” a senior source said. “We can send the whole lot if we need to, all 129 of them........"
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by ORAC
The Ministry of Defence is ready to send more Tornados and other aircraft “if they are needed” a senior source said. “We can send the whole lot if we need to, all 129 of them........"
What will be the 'Reserve price' for the UK on Ebay?
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129 should be interesting - just shows the missing link is between MoD 'sources' and Reality!
We've got 7 Sqns of GR4s (but not for long....). On paper they have 12 jets each - in reality they have 2-3 in Majors, 2 in Minors and the odd 1 or 2 with other snags or limited hours to servicing. So, the average Sqn has about 6 on the line - one Sqn in in Afghanistan, one is on POL and one ready to deploy. Even if you use one or both of the latter, we have 6 Sqns of 6 ac that's THIRTY SIX in total at way beyond Best/Sustainable effort.
I guess that you could include a few OCU jets/crews, but that would stop training and their Instructors won't be current on all the front line kit - perhaps add 4-6 jets/crews and you're just creeping over 40.
Wake up MoD/PM - the RAF front line is really really small. 129 Indeed!!!!!
We've got 7 Sqns of GR4s (but not for long....). On paper they have 12 jets each - in reality they have 2-3 in Majors, 2 in Minors and the odd 1 or 2 with other snags or limited hours to servicing. So, the average Sqn has about 6 on the line - one Sqn in in Afghanistan, one is on POL and one ready to deploy. Even if you use one or both of the latter, we have 6 Sqns of 6 ac that's THIRTY SIX in total at way beyond Best/Sustainable effort.
I guess that you could include a few OCU jets/crews, but that would stop training and their Instructors won't be current on all the front line kit - perhaps add 4-6 jets/crews and you're just creeping over 40.
Wake up MoD/PM - the RAF front line is really really small. 129 Indeed!!!!!
Given the recent fall-off in journalistic quality in the Torygraph, a 'Senior Source' is more likely someone's off-hand comment in the newsroom. I cannot think why any 'senior officer' would say such tosh....unless it was from another Service, of course!
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Wake up MoD/PM - the RAF front line is really really small. 129 Indeed!!!!!
But the really really sad thing is that the boys and girls will cope both in Libya and Afgan and the mission will be deemed a success……and then the politicians will make even more cuts
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Interesting stuff chaps. Seems as indicated it's down to the French and the few odd RAF kites still available though not many of them.
Looks like without the US we are stuffed. Hopefully no nasty country will spot a air ground defence gap and take advantage of it.
Still understand the rebels are a little upset, can't blame them really, show support and help, let them get into a position that allows the government forces to gain advantage, then guess what, let's withdraw support and take the moral high ground. Great stuff and hope never to need support from the political powers involved governing NATO or it's polices, defence planning and budgets.*
Looks like without the US we are stuffed. Hopefully no nasty country will spot a air ground defence gap and take advantage of it.
Still understand the rebels are a little upset, can't blame them really, show support and help, let them get into a position that allows the government forces to gain advantage, then guess what, let's withdraw support and take the moral high ground. Great stuff and hope never to need support from the political powers involved governing NATO or it's polices, defence planning and budgets.*
The numbers game:
How many members are there in NATO?
Of that number how many have sent aircraft to do the job?
Aren't they all members of the UN as well, in some shape or form, and they all agreed with the Resolution.
Surely if everyone contributed something that would boost the numbers and ease the burden on the willing few?
As per bloody usual, the few do the crap jobs for the many, whilst the many stand and criticise....
Give me a minute or two to change my name to Meldrew......
Of that number how many have sent aircraft to do the job?
Aren't they all members of the UN as well, in some shape or form, and they all agreed with the Resolution.
Surely if everyone contributed something that would boost the numbers and ease the burden on the willing few?
As per bloody usual, the few do the crap jobs for the many, whilst the many stand and criticise....
Give me a minute or two to change my name to Meldrew......
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Don't our illustrious lords and masters, who are presumably graduates of various Defence Colleges, (or similar) ever learn the old mantra that sustained military ops (i.e. not just a surge) require sufficient forces to allow rotations......1/3rd actually at the sharp end, 1/3rd training to go and last 1/3rd as re-inforcements to the other 2/3rds.
With the length of our present commitments in foreign places such as the FI, Afg and now Libya (ignore domestic tasks such as QRA - do we bother anymore?) then we are kidding ourselves than we can send even one squadron of Tonkas to enforce the NFZ over Libya and perhaps another one squadron of Tiffies. That's it!
Our polititians carry one as though we still had an inventory of Harriers, F3's, Jags and Nimrods. The're all gone and we won't get them back no matter how many times we may wish!
Why is it that the most basic lessons about defence get forgotten so quickly? I who never even did ISC can still remember the lesson of the three P's!
P***, poor planning = p*** poor performance!
I see failure ahead in Libya. The moral is either do the job properly, or don't bother. I don't think we should "bother" anymore....we (as a country) don't have the ability anymore to "shout".
MB
With the length of our present commitments in foreign places such as the FI, Afg and now Libya (ignore domestic tasks such as QRA - do we bother anymore?) then we are kidding ourselves than we can send even one squadron of Tonkas to enforce the NFZ over Libya and perhaps another one squadron of Tiffies. That's it!
Our polititians carry one as though we still had an inventory of Harriers, F3's, Jags and Nimrods. The're all gone and we won't get them back no matter how many times we may wish!
Why is it that the most basic lessons about defence get forgotten so quickly? I who never even did ISC can still remember the lesson of the three P's!
P***, poor planning = p*** poor performance!
I see failure ahead in Libya. The moral is either do the job properly, or don't bother. I don't think we should "bother" anymore....we (as a country) don't have the ability anymore to "shout".
MB
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Is this to be believed?
BBC News - Libya: RAF jets join ground-attack force
Libya: RAF jets join ground-attack force
More British warplanes are moving from policing the no-fly zone in Libya to begin ground attacks in the country, the Ministry of Defence has said.
Four Typhoon jets will join 16 RAF ground-attack aircraft already under Nato command.
They are all based in southern Italy as part of an international coalition to enforce a no-fly zone against Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
Meanwhile, RAF missiles hit 12 targets around rebel-held Misrata and Sirte
Depending on how you read it it suggests 4 more Typhoons to Italy but doing ground attack (11 Sqn?)
Interesting if you read the RAF site they should have been able to deploy with this capability in 2008 -
RAF - 11 Squadron
XI Squadron reformed at RAF Coningsby on 29 Mar 07 as the second frontline Typhoon squadron to form. As multi-role lead squadron, it will spearhead the development of Typhoon’s air-to-surface capability, which will be ready for deployed operations by mid-08.
Do we believe this or is it sloppy journalism?
BBC News - Libya: RAF jets join ground-attack force
Libya: RAF jets join ground-attack force
More British warplanes are moving from policing the no-fly zone in Libya to begin ground attacks in the country, the Ministry of Defence has said.
Four Typhoon jets will join 16 RAF ground-attack aircraft already under Nato command.
They are all based in southern Italy as part of an international coalition to enforce a no-fly zone against Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
Meanwhile, RAF missiles hit 12 targets around rebel-held Misrata and Sirte
Depending on how you read it it suggests 4 more Typhoons to Italy but doing ground attack (11 Sqn?)
Interesting if you read the RAF site they should have been able to deploy with this capability in 2008 -
RAF - 11 Squadron
XI Squadron reformed at RAF Coningsby on 29 Mar 07 as the second frontline Typhoon squadron to form. As multi-role lead squadron, it will spearhead the development of Typhoon’s air-to-surface capability, which will be ready for deployed operations by mid-08.
Do we believe this or is it sloppy journalism?
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MB - I'm with you 100% except for the bit about seeing 'failure' in Libya. The true brilliance of the Libya thing (conflict, war, intervention, whatever.....) is that we haven't got a defined endstate, so we can't fail - Hoorah!
Unbelievably we've all (UN = 196 countries, so North Korea aren't guilty for once) got ourselves into something without any sort of measurable deliverable (sorry about the business speak) to aim for. One could argue that we're doing this to save civilian lives, we must have saved at least 2 so we've won and can come home. One could also argue that saving civilian lives requires us to stay forever because civilians are dying now and we're not yet saving them all.
If the End State for Libya is an unstable country. divided against itself with insipient slip into civil war imminent then we're doing really well. Tea/Medals anyone?
Genius!!!!!
Unbelievably we've all (UN = 196 countries, so North Korea aren't guilty for once) got ourselves into something without any sort of measurable deliverable (sorry about the business speak) to aim for. One could argue that we're doing this to save civilian lives, we must have saved at least 2 so we've won and can come home. One could also argue that saving civilian lives requires us to stay forever because civilians are dying now and we're not yet saving them all.
If the End State for Libya is an unstable country. divided against itself with insipient slip into civil war imminent then we're doing really well. Tea/Medals anyone?
Genius!!!!!
So, who of the NATO Nations bothered to show up for the party? I take a somewhat cynical look at 'this is a NATO operation' and will indicate with various smilies why ...
Is NATO bloat (since 1996) worth anything more than Bloody
All?
Not to mention that the ingrates in Libya are crying "what have you done for me lately" as soon as they can ...
Libya's rebels: NATO isn't doing enough for us - CSMonitor.com
Then again, I maybe should not blame them ...
Huh???
NATO Forces involved ...
Albania hah
Belgium
Bulgaria hah
Canada
Croatia hah
Czech Republic ??
Denmark
Estonia hah
France
Germany Curled in a fetal position thanks to the abstain vote at UN, yes? Where are the German Tornado and Typhoon assets?
Greece (Corvettes?)
Hungary hah
Iceland (Oops, sorry chaps, we only provide runways and puffins, no forces)
Italy
Latvia hah
Lithuania hah
Luxembourg
Netherlands (corvettes? Did they send strike aircraft?)
Norway
Poland hah
Portugal (corvettes or frigates?)
Romania hah
Slovakia hah
Slovenia hah
Spain (planes? Ships? Tapas?)
Turkey ??????
United Kingdom
United States
Is NATO bloat (since 1996) worth anything more than Bloody
All?Not to mention that the ingrates in Libya are crying "what have you done for me lately" as soon as they can ...
Libya's rebels: NATO isn't doing enough for us - CSMonitor.com
Then again, I maybe should not blame them ...
“Our question for NATO is this: are you with us or against us?”
NATO has insisted that it is in Libya not to overthrow Colonel Qaddafi, but to prevent further loss of civilian life.
NATO has insisted that it is in Libya not to overthrow Colonel Qaddafi, but to prevent further loss of civilian life.
NATO Forces involved ...
Albania hah
Belgium
Bulgaria hah
Canada
Croatia hah
Czech Republic ??
Denmark
Estonia hah
France
Germany Curled in a fetal position thanks to the abstain vote at UN, yes? Where are the German Tornado and Typhoon assets?
Greece
(Corvettes?)Hungary hah
Iceland (Oops, sorry chaps, we only provide runways and puffins, no forces)
Italy
Latvia hah
Lithuania hah
Luxembourg
Netherlands (corvettes? Did they send strike aircraft?)
Norway
Poland hah
Portugal (corvettes or frigates?)
Romania hah
Slovakia hah
Slovenia hah
Spain (planes? Ships? Tapas?)
Turkey ??????
United Kingdom
United States
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 6th Apr 2011 at 15:33.
Outhouse wrote
Not just the UK and France. Canada, Belgium, Norway and Denmark have also contributed to the air ground role.
Canada CF-18.
Canadian jets bomb Libyan target - World - CBC News
Belgian F-16.
Watch Video Belgiums first bombing mission in Libya UK News at blinkx
Danish F-16.
Danish F-16s drop their first bombs on Libya
Norwegian F-16.
Norway’s F16s bomb Libyan targets : Views and News from Norway
2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TJ
Seems as indicated it's down to the French and the few odd RAF kites still available though not many of them.
Canada CF-18.
Canadian jets bomb Libyan target - World - CBC News
Belgian F-16.
Watch Video Belgiums first bombing mission in Libya UK News at blinkx
Danish F-16.
Danish F-16s drop their first bombs on Libya
Norwegian F-16.
Norway’s F16s bomb Libyan targets : Views and News from Norway
2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TJ
Glad to see the Belgians and Danes participating. Wasn't sure if they were up for a party ...
More news from a "rebel" leader ...
I have to ask: how is this any different from the Mad Colonel describing the no mercy approach he would take ...
More news from a "rebel" leader ...
“There is no revolution without setbacks,” said Mustafa Gheriani, the rebel government’s spokesman, in an article by The Telegraph. “But the people will win. ... We are committed to fighting this tyrant, and either we will drive him out or he will rule a country with no people in it.”
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Ok, point taken, and well done to those involved. still short of a full commitment and a difficult job for the ones who did step up to the plate. Regardless of the politics involved it has proved that the tools to do the job are stretched, the continuing budget reductions will make it even harder in the future. We rely on the professionalism skill and bravery of the military to do a job with less and less tools to do it with.*