Can someone explain why the MRA4 has been cancelled before we screw up big time.
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'Bitter retrospection and blaming-the-immigrant is something your nation is becoming rather good at. And, as a national characteristic, it stinks'
Hanoijane',
Please enlighten us as to how your nation is managing the 10s of thousands of immigrants who arrive on your doorstep. Specifically how you manage to house,provide world-class healthcare for free,provide education for free and provide a whole range of welfare benefits. And whilst doing that contribute Billions in overseas development aid to countries whose mission is to purchase state of the art defence products.
Reacting to individual comments and classing them as a 'national characteristic' is nothing but petty and immature.
P.S What does $10 get me these days in Hanoi ?
Hanoijane',
Please enlighten us as to how your nation is managing the 10s of thousands of immigrants who arrive on your doorstep. Specifically how you manage to house,provide world-class healthcare for free,provide education for free and provide a whole range of welfare benefits. And whilst doing that contribute Billions in overseas development aid to countries whose mission is to purchase state of the art defence products.
Reacting to individual comments and classing them as a 'national characteristic' is nothing but petty and immature.
P.S What does $10 get me these days in Hanoi ?
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British Anti-Submarine Warfare Force In Flux
From Aviation Week...
A case of "stating the fekkin obvious"?
...the rest of the article is here:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...hannel=defense
Off topic, but very interesting, is this snippet:
Cameron welcomes RAF's last C-17 to Brize Norton
Any one out there care to explain why the planned "general media facility" was abandoned - guardroom didn't have enough visitor car passes, perhaps?
Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal
Jan 21, 2011
By Robert Wall
YEOVIL, England — Concerns are mounting in the U.K. that anti-submarine warfare (ASW) skills are beginning to erode because of competing operational demands and equipment decisions.
The fear, voiced by government and industry officials, goes beyond the decision last year to cancel the Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft project. Some high-end skills to hunt submarines are no longer getting adequate training, warns an industry official.
By Robert Wall
YEOVIL, England — Concerns are mounting in the U.K. that anti-submarine warfare (ASW) skills are beginning to erode because of competing operational demands and equipment decisions.
The fear, voiced by government and industry officials, goes beyond the decision last year to cancel the Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft project. Some high-end skills to hunt submarines are no longer getting adequate training, warns an industry official.
...the rest of the article is here:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...hannel=defense
Off topic, but very interesting, is this snippet:
Cameron welcomes RAF's last C-17 to Brize Norton
...The RAF and Boeing had planned to host a general media facility to welcome the aircraft at Brize Norton, but this was abandoned within less than 24h of the event to allow only local press to attend. The service's transport super-base falls within Cameron's parliamentary constituency of Witney, Oxfordshire.
Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal
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Totally off-topic, but for the sake of ****s, giggles and East-West harmony, I'll answer you.
Please enlighten us as to how your nation is managing the 10s of thousands of immigrants who arrive on your doorstep.. etc....etc....
Ah, you're unhappy being born on the downwards slope of an ex-colonial power which has shown a marked tendency over the past 20 years to make unfortunate economic and political alignments (can you say EU?)? I can see why that would hurt.
Reacting to individual comments and classing them as a 'national characteristic' is nothing but petty and immature
But pretty accurate nevertheless. I'm just back from a month in your fine land. Not very comforting.
What does $10 get me these days in Hanoi ?
If you're alluding to what most of our 40+ year-old overweight and balding male visitors from the US and UK are trying to 'get' in Ha Noi, you'll find yourself a few hundred $'s short. Times have changed, my friend.
The ultimate fate of the 'mighty rod' to those of us in any way linked with aviation was never in doubt. I think we're simply surprised it took you so long to get there.
Please enlighten us as to how your nation is managing the 10s of thousands of immigrants who arrive on your doorstep.. etc....etc....
Ah, you're unhappy being born on the downwards slope of an ex-colonial power which has shown a marked tendency over the past 20 years to make unfortunate economic and political alignments (can you say EU?)? I can see why that would hurt.
Reacting to individual comments and classing them as a 'national characteristic' is nothing but petty and immature
But pretty accurate nevertheless. I'm just back from a month in your fine land. Not very comforting.
What does $10 get me these days in Hanoi ?
If you're alluding to what most of our 40+ year-old overweight and balding male visitors from the US and UK are trying to 'get' in Ha Noi, you'll find yourself a few hundred $'s short. Times have changed, my friend.
The ultimate fate of the 'mighty rod' to those of us in any way linked with aviation was never in doubt. I think we're simply surprised it took you so long to get there.
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Give up the whining and accept reality, huh? Bitter retrospection and blaming-the-immigrant is something your nation is becoming rather good at. And, as a national characteristic, it stinks.
How do you think this is paid for?
I think the British have every right to complain at being taken for a ride, we are tolerant to a point but that point is long past, and when you see British service men and women being put on the dole after putting their lives on the line to fund it they will quite rightly be pissed off.
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Totally off thread, but something has just become a bit obvious to me.
This comment:
If you're alluding to what most of our 40+ year-old overweight and balding male visitors from the US and UK are trying to 'get' in Ha Noi, you'll find yourself a few hundred $'s short. Times have changed, my friend.
So, if many tourists come to the UK to see royalty, or stately houses, I guess they see this as being what our country has to offer, and in return we strive to provide it, as heritage and monarchy reflect a lot of what Britain is about. What does the above comment referring to the sex trade say about the country that supports. runs and offers it?
I suppose its horses for courses. Whatever is offered to tourists, then I guess that will be reflected in the tourism of that area. Luckily I have no interest in the sex trade (and especially in a country where underage girls are offered) or visiting palaces, which is why when I am backpacking (my interest), I tend to run into fit and healthy folks (of all ages). Oh, as for the price of someone 'getting' something, I wouldn't have a clue, as I have nothing to do with anything like that!
Back to the Nimrod. Many folks have 20/20 hindsight vision, which is fine by me....It's just so much better if the person had stated their knowledge in advance, and with good reasons.
Just a few thoughts
This comment:
If you're alluding to what most of our 40+ year-old overweight and balding male visitors from the US and UK are trying to 'get' in Ha Noi, you'll find yourself a few hundred $'s short. Times have changed, my friend.
So, if many tourists come to the UK to see royalty, or stately houses, I guess they see this as being what our country has to offer, and in return we strive to provide it, as heritage and monarchy reflect a lot of what Britain is about. What does the above comment referring to the sex trade say about the country that supports. runs and offers it?
I suppose its horses for courses. Whatever is offered to tourists, then I guess that will be reflected in the tourism of that area. Luckily I have no interest in the sex trade (and especially in a country where underage girls are offered) or visiting palaces, which is why when I am backpacking (my interest), I tend to run into fit and healthy folks (of all ages). Oh, as for the price of someone 'getting' something, I wouldn't have a clue, as I have nothing to do with anything like that!
Back to the Nimrod. Many folks have 20/20 hindsight vision, which is fine by me....It's just so much better if the person had stated their knowledge in advance, and with good reasons.
Just a few thoughts
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What does the above comment referring to the sex trade say about the country that supports. runs and offers it?
What you may - or may not - expect to find on your visit to Ha Noi depends on your tastes. But basic economic theory tells us that price increases when demand (from our visitors) is high and supply (from our local ladies of the night) is highly limited. What does that tell you about the Viet Nam of today?
And before you tell me such things don't occur in the UK, I could name three 'highly respectable' hotels in London where I was propositioned over Christmas IN THE BAR. Though I am rather handsome, so it's entirely understandable...
It's just so much better if the person had stated their knowledge in advance, and with good reasons.
Hmmm. Ok. Next to go down? F35. Reason? Too little aeroplane for the $'s.
What you may - or may not - expect to find on your visit to Ha Noi depends on your tastes. But basic economic theory tells us that price increases when demand (from our visitors) is high and supply (from our local ladies of the night) is highly limited. What does that tell you about the Viet Nam of today?
And before you tell me such things don't occur in the UK, I could name three 'highly respectable' hotels in London where I was propositioned over Christmas IN THE BAR. Though I am rather handsome, so it's entirely understandable...
It's just so much better if the person had stated their knowledge in advance, and with good reasons.
Hmmm. Ok. Next to go down? F35. Reason? Too little aeroplane for the $'s.
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And before you tell me such things don't occur in the UK, I could name three 'highly respectable' hotels in London where I was propositioned over Christmas IN THE BAR.
book or twit
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I did not spell out the previous 2xx replies, but I've always been amazed by the MR4 project
IMO two groups are to blame for the end result:
- the folks that convinced politics that it was smart and necessary to upgrade/rebuild the Nimrods instead of buying something of the shelf
- the folks that accepted this plan. What were they thinking..
The Dutch navy did the same thing. Successfully sticking /hanging on to cold war requirements, 18 hour ASW ranges, 15 crew members, not adjusting/scaling down for 15 years until some politician sees through the game played and wipes away everything.
If those air forces had traded in half their Nimrods/P3C for smaller aircraft 10-15 years ago, they would still have existed. Fishery / pollution / coast control with Nimrods, P3s is laughable and everybody knew. But proud guys had to hold on to the big glorious platforms, spanning the world seas.
IMO two groups are to blame for the end result:
- the folks that convinced politics that it was smart and necessary to upgrade/rebuild the Nimrods instead of buying something of the shelf
- the folks that accepted this plan. What were they thinking..
The Dutch navy did the same thing. Successfully sticking /hanging on to cold war requirements, 18 hour ASW ranges, 15 crew members, not adjusting/scaling down for 15 years until some politician sees through the game played and wipes away everything.
If those air forces had traded in half their Nimrods/P3C for smaller aircraft 10-15 years ago, they would still have existed. Fishery / pollution / coast control with Nimrods, P3s is laughable and everybody knew. But proud guys had to hold on to the big glorious platforms, spanning the world seas.
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40+ year-old overweight and balding male
40+ year-old overweight and balding male.
Alas, this describes most of us associated with the Nimrod. But, we were soldiers once, and young
. And so was our platform, from the glory days of aviation.
We mean no harm by our reveries for the one true love of our lives, merely a desire to right the wrongs of our politicians.
Bring back Avro Ansons, that would be progress from what we have now! ( I believe that was said by the fledgling Coastal Command in 1939 )
Alas, this describes most of us associated with the Nimrod. But, we were soldiers once, and young
. And so was our platform, from the glory days of aviation.We mean no harm by our reveries for the one true love of our lives, merely a desire to right the wrongs of our politicians.
Bring back Avro Ansons, that would be progress from what we have now! ( I believe that was said by the fledgling Coastal Command in 1939 )
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Fishery / pollution / coast control with Nimrods, P3s is laughable and everybody knew. But proud guys had to hold on to the big glorious platforms, spanning the world seas.
Dave
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What davejb said. Fisheries, pollution and such other coastal patrol functions are the responsibility of other agencies.
The Nimrod was an ASW and ASUW (old speak) military platform, which also carried out a multitude of other essential military tasks. The SAR and fisheries stuff was very much ancillary tasking which was performed, when requested, if the aircraft were not busy doing their actual job, which was defending the country or training to do so.
Pretty picture though.
The Nimrod was an ASW and ASUW (old speak) military platform, which also carried out a multitude of other essential military tasks. The SAR and fisheries stuff was very much ancillary tasking which was performed, when requested, if the aircraft were not busy doing their actual job, which was defending the country or training to do so.
Pretty picture though.
London 2012 Olympics fears over Nimrod plane scrapping
BBC News - London 2012 Olympics fears over Nimrod plane scrapping
It just gets better and better......
The decision to scrap the new Nimrod MRA4 surveillance aircraft has prompted fears that it may leave a gap in security at the 2012 Olympic Games.
The nine planes had been due to play a major role in counter-terrorism from next year, but are now set to be axed as part of the defence cuts.
Angus Robertson MP said it meant "you can't protect the Olympics properly".
The nine planes had been due to play a major role in counter-terrorism from next year, but are now set to be axed as part of the defence cuts.
Angus Robertson MP said it meant "you can't protect the Olympics properly".
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The fact that there are plenty of alternatives to the Nimrod to carry out the fisheries side of things is true. However, what's really been missed here is the fact that the same airframes don't have much of a bomb-bay to carry air to ground missiles or torpedoes and their wings aren't really up to carrying Sidewinders/Paveways etc. Anti-submarine warfare was after all, one of our priorities. This will surely come back to bite us in the ar5e.
Ping
Ping
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But unfortunately...
The contract signed to host the Olympics was even more watertight than that between BAE Systems and the MOD to build both carriers. Once that was signed (Tessa Jowell was it?) there was no backing out.
It seems to me that that somewhere after Haddon Cave was published that at a programme board meeting for the Nimrod 2000 (bis) project took a turn towards a Monty Python sketch.
MOD shiny: "Of course, the MRA4 specification does not have to specifically include concepts such as 'safe to fly' or 'airworthy to modern standards'. I take it that these are included in the build price."
BAES sales rep: "No. I must say that we were suprised that you hadn't included this - but you know your business better than us."
MOD: "I beg your pardon? Do you expect me to believe that you are building a product which won't pass muster and cold embarrass us all?"
BAES: "Why not? For years you have treated 'battlefield' work arounds as standard pactice. We have had hundreds of Tornados back for updates, but you have never wanted to pay to have them put back to factory condition. I admit, it does get on the tits of the blokes on the line, but you know your business better than us. We are still amazed that you only wanted to deliver 9 out of the 36 you ordered...but you know our business better than us."
It seems to me that that somewhere after Haddon Cave was published that at a programme board meeting for the Nimrod 2000 (bis) project took a turn towards a Monty Python sketch.
MOD shiny: "Of course, the MRA4 specification does not have to specifically include concepts such as 'safe to fly' or 'airworthy to modern standards'. I take it that these are included in the build price."
BAES sales rep: "No. I must say that we were suprised that you hadn't included this - but you know your business better than us."
MOD: "I beg your pardon? Do you expect me to believe that you are building a product which won't pass muster and cold embarrass us all?"
BAES: "Why not? For years you have treated 'battlefield' work arounds as standard pactice. We have had hundreds of Tornados back for updates, but you have never wanted to pay to have them put back to factory condition. I admit, it does get on the tits of the blokes on the line, but you know your business better than us. We are still amazed that you only wanted to deliver 9 out of the 36 you ordered...but you know our business better than us."
Last edited by Finnpog; 23rd Jan 2011 at 16:05.