Can someone explain why the MRA4 has been cancelled before we screw up big time.
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PS
Whlst I may have mocked, I truly believe that we need a highly capable, SAFE Nimrod-type asset. Fit it for PWIV, Brimstone and Storm Shadow and it could span an even greater number of operational requirements.
Finnpog
Your mocking is probably quite near the truth. MoD routinely let companies off the hook regarding warranties by completely ignoring the rules governing Service Engineered Mods (just one example).
But, under the current regs, you will never get a company to sign up to deliver an "airworthy" aircraft. There is much more to airworthiness than what they deliver; not least the above SEMs. What you ask them to deliver is a valid and verifiable Safety Case for the Build Standard agreed in the contract; thereafter MoD add their liabilities and justifications to the two higher level Safety Cases (i.e. the Project Director's and the RTSA's). (I know there are variations on this theme, so it is better just to quote the regs here). Even then, DE&S tech staffs will still be over-ruled by those who reckon this is a waste of money; who often cite the Services not asking for the money in the first place as justification.
I'm afraid this needs repeating. The very fact that the Nimrod IPT had to let a Safety Case task on BAeS means the MoD's Safety Management System regs were ignored, in that the requirement for continuous assessment was not implemented. This is why I have a degree of sympathy for the likes of Air Cdre Baber. The very fact he (or more likely someone in his team) let a Safety Case task puts him one-up on his predecessors and contemporaries. The question nobody asks, certainly not Haddon-Cave, was how many gaps in this audit trail did BAeS and MoD find during execution of this task? Gaps mean expensive and time consuming regression - in this case probably many many years.
What continues to astonish me is that this isn't trotted out by his defence and the predecessors investigated as well. Then you'd get into the real problems and. perhaps, an underlying reason for cancellation.
Your mocking is probably quite near the truth. MoD routinely let companies off the hook regarding warranties by completely ignoring the rules governing Service Engineered Mods (just one example).
But, under the current regs, you will never get a company to sign up to deliver an "airworthy" aircraft. There is much more to airworthiness than what they deliver; not least the above SEMs. What you ask them to deliver is a valid and verifiable Safety Case for the Build Standard agreed in the contract; thereafter MoD add their liabilities and justifications to the two higher level Safety Cases (i.e. the Project Director's and the RTSA's). (I know there are variations on this theme, so it is better just to quote the regs here). Even then, DE&S tech staffs will still be over-ruled by those who reckon this is a waste of money; who often cite the Services not asking for the money in the first place as justification.
I'm afraid this needs repeating. The very fact that the Nimrod IPT had to let a Safety Case task on BAeS means the MoD's Safety Management System regs were ignored, in that the requirement for continuous assessment was not implemented. This is why I have a degree of sympathy for the likes of Air Cdre Baber. The very fact he (or more likely someone in his team) let a Safety Case task puts him one-up on his predecessors and contemporaries. The question nobody asks, certainly not Haddon-Cave, was how many gaps in this audit trail did BAeS and MoD find during execution of this task? Gaps mean expensive and time consuming regression - in this case probably many many years.
What continues to astonish me is that this isn't trotted out by his defence and the predecessors investigated as well. Then you'd get into the real problems and. perhaps, an underlying reason for cancellation.
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-> The Russian subs were gone a long time ago.
I stick to my opinion the sqd would still have existed and a (better) force would be available if they had traded in half their Nimrods for smaller aircraft 10-15 years ago.
But like the Dutch MLD they were proud, had a long rich tradition and strong backers everywhere.
I was on them 20yrs ago. Looking back I can only conclude they/we were justifying additional tasks keeping our beloved dyno's / jobs alive. Anyone who asked fundamental questions just didn't understand and we were there anyway.
Brimstones, Pavesways, trooptransport, come on..
BTW loved flights with the MPA's live at the NAS. But thats besides the discussion, or should be.
I stick to my opinion the sqd would still have existed and a (better) force would be available if they had traded in half their Nimrods for smaller aircraft 10-15 years ago.
But like the Dutch MLD they were proud, had a long rich tradition and strong backers everywhere.
I was on them 20yrs ago. Looking back I can only conclude they/we were justifying additional tasks keeping our beloved dyno's / jobs alive. Anyone who asked fundamental questions just didn't understand and we were there anyway.
Brimstones, Pavesways, trooptransport, come on..
BTW loved flights with the MPA's live at the NAS. But thats besides the discussion, or should be.
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Keesje
If you truly have an mpa background, I can only conclude that when you left you went to live in a cave on a desert island somewhere and have not read a newspaper since. Are you aware how unstable many countries are?
Russian subs have gone? Really? Okay, if you like. Ask a grownup.
What about the Chinese? North Koreans? Iranians? Indian/Pakistanis? And so on. SSKs are very cheap, bang for buck, when compared to the cost of a capital warship they can sink or cripple. For very little dosh indeed (think those brilliant exported German Type 209s) you can effectively close large areas of ocean and particularly choke points like the Straits of Hormuz. Forget the situation now, what of 5 years from now? It's just been proven, quite brilliantly by the UK, that you can't build new mpa overnight. And be certain you cannot build the crews from scratch in any sensible time frame either.
What is your issue with mra4 carrying Brimstone, Paveway etc? You've lost me. That was the future, given the funding. With a nice long standoff and loiter capability it was an attractive proposition.
If you've been away 20 years, I think you have little idea of what the military, including mpa, have been doing lately. Well done on the Cold War, waiting for Soviet Hordes to trample through Germany and further. As relevant as any other history lesson I guess. But the Russians and many other nations are a very different threat these days.
I really don't think you know what you are talking about.
If you truly have an mpa background, I can only conclude that when you left you went to live in a cave on a desert island somewhere and have not read a newspaper since. Are you aware how unstable many countries are?
Russian subs have gone? Really? Okay, if you like. Ask a grownup.
What about the Chinese? North Koreans? Iranians? Indian/Pakistanis? And so on. SSKs are very cheap, bang for buck, when compared to the cost of a capital warship they can sink or cripple. For very little dosh indeed (think those brilliant exported German Type 209s) you can effectively close large areas of ocean and particularly choke points like the Straits of Hormuz. Forget the situation now, what of 5 years from now? It's just been proven, quite brilliantly by the UK, that you can't build new mpa overnight. And be certain you cannot build the crews from scratch in any sensible time frame either.
What is your issue with mra4 carrying Brimstone, Paveway etc? You've lost me. That was the future, given the funding. With a nice long standoff and loiter capability it was an attractive proposition.
If you've been away 20 years, I think you have little idea of what the military, including mpa, have been doing lately. Well done on the Cold War, waiting for Soviet Hordes to trample through Germany and further. As relevant as any other history lesson I guess. But the Russians and many other nations are a very different threat these days.
I really don't think you know what you are talking about.
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I do not deny the world as it is or the operational requirements that result. I left 20 yrs ago and wasn't there for a long time, so I'm not really a militairy guy.
Still the fact governments wipe away assets like the MPA's is a clear sign something went wrong earlier and we can't only blame the government bodies that pulled the trigger. I you do, the world must look odd.
IMO the new world has different needs, scaring people the old world isn't gone and invisible evil doers are everywhere only works so long. Maybe there should indeed be a European naval command, our interests aren't that far apart. Maybe a clean sheet 40 yr proof requirements document should be drawn up. Maybe it shouldn't be an UAV, but 5-6 folks, powerfull sensors and high bandwidth connections should be enough.
Having the Nimrods around for another 30 years was an interesting idea, but I'm still amazed it came so far. For the overland operations it seems to me other sensors / platforms are better suited then the MPA's.
The Germans bought 5 Global Hawks for $ half a billion and 8 used (modified) P3Cc's for a similar amount of money. Compare that to the UK situation (Nimrods, billions spent, $6.4B budget, 7 yrs late, wiped away). I guess something was fundamentally wrong and the UK armed forced should look in the mirror too.
Still the fact governments wipe away assets like the MPA's is a clear sign something went wrong earlier and we can't only blame the government bodies that pulled the trigger. I you do, the world must look odd.
IMO the new world has different needs, scaring people the old world isn't gone and invisible evil doers are everywhere only works so long. Maybe there should indeed be a European naval command, our interests aren't that far apart. Maybe a clean sheet 40 yr proof requirements document should be drawn up. Maybe it shouldn't be an UAV, but 5-6 folks, powerfull sensors and high bandwidth connections should be enough.
Having the Nimrods around for another 30 years was an interesting idea, but I'm still amazed it came so far. For the overland operations it seems to me other sensors / platforms are better suited then the MPA's.
The Germans bought 5 Global Hawks for $ half a billion and 8 used (modified) P3Cc's for a similar amount of money. Compare that to the UK situation (Nimrods, billions spent, $6.4B budget, 7 yrs late, wiped away). I guess something was fundamentally wrong and the UK armed forced should look in the mirror too.
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MRA4 was a procurement and management issue, there was little other reason for its demise.
As for the lack of submarines...
Russia has 43+ active submarines. China is building a homegrown SSBN. Iran can close the straights of hormuz with 1 Kilo, given the 40% of the worlds sea-going oil transits this area, i'd say thats a big deal.
Every major player in the world is investing in MPA, except the UK.
5 years time we'll either buy old crapped out P3's, a cut down P8, or perhaps a fleet of Atlantiques/Dash8's/Challengers etc etc.
As for the lack of submarines...
Russia has 43+ active submarines. China is building a homegrown SSBN. Iran can close the straights of hormuz with 1 Kilo, given the 40% of the worlds sea-going oil transits this area, i'd say thats a big deal.
Every major player in the world is investing in MPA, except the UK.
5 years time we'll either buy old crapped out P3's, a cut down P8, or perhaps a fleet of Atlantiques/Dash8's/Challengers etc etc.
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5 years time we'll either buy old crapped out P3's, a cut down P8, or perhaps a fleet of Atlantiques/Dash8's/Challengers etc etc.
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Oh come on, you wouldn't even need the ASW gear to see the thing and sink it. Even a Merlin could polish the bugger off. But it won't need to, because the Septics will sink the entire Iranian navy if they try any of that sort of nonsense.
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LookingNorth
Very good point. Also if we need to send ground troops anywhere they could do it for us, hey no transports needed! Even better, just use US troops and we can bin the army too! Same for every other capability?
So let's just fold it all and hope the Septics will foot the bill for the entire world's policing for the forseeable future. I hope they don't mind.
Very good point. Also if we need to send ground troops anywhere they could do it for us, hey no transports needed! Even better, just use US troops and we can bin the army too! Same for every other capability?
So let's just fold it all and hope the Septics will foot the bill for the entire world's policing for the forseeable future. I hope they don't mind.
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See, now you're getting it.
Frankly it seems like a better plan to me, compared with wasting billions of pounds, hundreds of British lives and tens of thousands of Johnny Foreigner's lives. Switerzerland and Ireland don't seem to be suffering much from Islamoterror, after all.
Frankly it seems like a better plan to me, compared with wasting billions of pounds, hundreds of British lives and tens of thousands of Johnny Foreigner's lives. Switerzerland and Ireland don't seem to be suffering much from Islamoterror, after all.
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LookingNorth
You've cut the legs from under me. I was being, obviously, facetious. But I find it hard to argue with you and shall be voting for you when you put yourself forward. Do you have a newsletter and may I subscribe?
Are you the Defence Secretary having a bit of down time in the office in between erasing capabilities? You seem to have a very similar outlook if not. Your cover is blown.
You've cut the legs from under me. I was being, obviously, facetious. But I find it hard to argue with you and shall be voting for you when you put yourself forward. Do you have a newsletter and may I subscribe?
Are you the Defence Secretary having a bit of down time in the office in between erasing capabilities? You seem to have a very similar outlook if not. Your cover is blown.
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Well I did look at going into politics but to be frank, robbing banks seems to be a more honest occupation, and it seems you can get away scot free as long as you're employed by the bank at the time.
Oh come on, you wouldn't even need the ASW gear to see the thing and sink it. Even a Merlin could polish the bugger off. But it won't need to, because the Septics will sink the entire Iranian navy if they try any of that sort of nonsense.
May I just ask what your ASW pedigree is? And what do you know of the capabilities of the Kilo-class submarine?
And may I suggest you Google Iranian mini subs? Or for that matter fast attack craft or suicide boats?
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Oooh Iranian mini-subs! I'm quivering with terror. Not my problem, but more importantly not the RAF's problem. We can't fight every bloody war and - thankfully - the bank balance is finally convincing the big knobs that we can't afford to.
Any more ludicrous 'threats' to try and convince us that BWoS should have some more skips full of used fifties?
Any more ludicrous 'threats' to try and convince us that BWoS should have some more skips full of used fifties?
If the Straits of Hormuz are closed to all traffic then a coalition of the willing is formed, and takes part in any agreed military action against Iran to reverse the situation, on the basis that pretty much the whole world is effected. The UK contributes what it can/will to such a coalition.... (maybe we could do the catering?)
If the Straits of Hormuz are to be selectively closed - the question is how exactly? Stop and board all shipping (that won't be done using Kilos and mini subs). Turn back or impound all shipping going to destinations that Iran doesn't like? Where does the fuel used in the UK come from - does it for example include crude oil that is shipped to and refined in the Netherlands..?
Look beyond the glossy Janes and Intel briefings on sexy kit, and try to work out how/if it can be used practically in anything other than openly declared all-out warfare...
If Iran wants to take on the whole world, then using Kilos and mini subs to sink everything in the Straits might be a viable plan. If Iran doesn't want to take on the rest of the world.....
Using the Iranian scenario as justification for the MRA4 is grabbing at straws to put it mildly, which is not to say that there aren't more valid scenarios that could be used.
If the Straits of Hormuz are to be selectively closed - the question is how exactly? Stop and board all shipping (that won't be done using Kilos and mini subs). Turn back or impound all shipping going to destinations that Iran doesn't like? Where does the fuel used in the UK come from - does it for example include crude oil that is shipped to and refined in the Netherlands..?
Look beyond the glossy Janes and Intel briefings on sexy kit, and try to work out how/if it can be used practically in anything other than openly declared all-out warfare...
If Iran wants to take on the whole world, then using Kilos and mini subs to sink everything in the Straits might be a viable plan. If Iran doesn't want to take on the rest of the world.....
Using the Iranian scenario as justification for the MRA4 is grabbing at straws to put it mildly, which is not to say that there aren't more valid scenarios that could be used.
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Sticking with the ASW threat...
Narco-subs
Drug Traffic Beneat the Waves
Fish Poaching using Submarines
Seems difficult for people to accept that there is more than the military than shooting people.
There wasn't just 1 cold war, there are lots of cold wars...
Narco-subs
Drug Traffic Beneat the Waves
Fish Poaching using Submarines
Seems difficult for people to accept that there is more than the military than shooting people.
There wasn't just 1 cold war, there are lots of cold wars...
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Fish Poaching using Submarines
"They drilled a hole in the ice and then dropped the submarine in on a tether," said Romuald Piecuch, a local police spokesman. "
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Keesje
This changes everything I am sure you agree. If some men can get away with 40kg of fish over a few days, well....... Enough is enough.
I shall send a link for this to our, and your, Prime Ministers. This stops now. We acquire 50, no 60... Call it 100 state of the art MPA and invade Poland.
Mk 11s don't make it clear how much these fishermen have offended us either. We go nucleur, strategic, not tactical, as soon as the MPA are available.
BAe have the contract for the 200 MPA and assure us that the Minrod MRA 5 (Minrod 3000) will be in service by 2020. We go then. The budget is £500,000,000,000 and a smiling BAe contract negotiator told the press that there is a possibility that the aircraft will be on budget whilst tightening the vice on the balls of the 13 year old Air Training Corp cadet the RAF sent to seal the deal water tight.
Muttering something about "..... of course the wings, engines and avionics will be available for a small extra charge," the BAe lawyers left in a solid gold bus.
The future is bright. B&stard thieving Polish Fishing Chaps...... We're coming for you.
This changes everything I am sure you agree. If some men can get away with 40kg of fish over a few days, well....... Enough is enough.
I shall send a link for this to our, and your, Prime Ministers. This stops now. We acquire 50, no 60... Call it 100 state of the art MPA and invade Poland.
Mk 11s don't make it clear how much these fishermen have offended us either. We go nucleur, strategic, not tactical, as soon as the MPA are available.
BAe have the contract for the 200 MPA and assure us that the Minrod MRA 5 (Minrod 3000) will be in service by 2020. We go then. The budget is £500,000,000,000 and a smiling BAe contract negotiator told the press that there is a possibility that the aircraft will be on budget whilst tightening the vice on the balls of the 13 year old Air Training Corp cadet the RAF sent to seal the deal water tight.
Muttering something about "..... of course the wings, engines and avionics will be available for a small extra charge," the BAe lawyers left in a solid gold bus.
The future is bright. B&stard thieving Polish Fishing Chaps...... We're coming for you.