WSOp's/WSO's at Kinloss, what does the future hold?
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Actually RP they're on engagements that reflect what the powers that be decided to offer over the years - aircrew have been signed on for 8, 9 or 12 years initially. This is quite a significant commitment to an 18 year old... at that age it's seen more as a high price to pay for what you want than a guarantee of employment everyone else would give their eye teeth for. (I signed on for 12 years - at age 18 would you have happily signed on to age 30? That seemed a lifetime away to me...)
Swings and roundabouts pal, the RAF required a big commitment before they'd let us be aircrew, once they had us they wanted to keep us so - in the past - re-engagement offers weren't hard to come by if you were good enough at the job.
However, aircrew are not all on to age 55, not by a long chalk - just as the senior NCO's in every other section may be on to 55 while those under them are not so some aircrew are in for keeps whilst others are on shorter engagements... just as I expect people in your own trade are. I currently work with an ex WO, one of several I know, who took his pension (from a ground trade) and is now adding to it by putting in some less stressful hours elsewhere. He certainly got his 55 in.
EVERYONE at Kinloss has it bad - some less than others, for example I imagine a rock or a copper, or any of the admin staff, or any one of a number of other trades can be posted elsewhere to a similar/same job, possibly needing a bit of a conversion course enroute. Many of the aircrew you are apparently envious of have no job to move to, and are probably looking at redundancy... helped enormously by the new rules on redundancy that are about to cut the rug from under their feet.
Personally I'd say the ground trades have an advantage at this point....but I think it'd be better all round if servicemen weren't sniping at each other, don't you think?
Dave
Swings and roundabouts pal, the RAF required a big commitment before they'd let us be aircrew, once they had us they wanted to keep us so - in the past - re-engagement offers weren't hard to come by if you were good enough at the job.
However, aircrew are not all on to age 55, not by a long chalk - just as the senior NCO's in every other section may be on to 55 while those under them are not so some aircrew are in for keeps whilst others are on shorter engagements... just as I expect people in your own trade are. I currently work with an ex WO, one of several I know, who took his pension (from a ground trade) and is now adding to it by putting in some less stressful hours elsewhere. He certainly got his 55 in.
EVERYONE at Kinloss has it bad - some less than others, for example I imagine a rock or a copper, or any of the admin staff, or any one of a number of other trades can be posted elsewhere to a similar/same job, possibly needing a bit of a conversion course enroute. Many of the aircrew you are apparently envious of have no job to move to, and are probably looking at redundancy... helped enormously by the new rules on redundancy that are about to cut the rug from under their feet.
Personally I'd say the ground trades have an advantage at this point....but I think it'd be better all round if servicemen weren't sniping at each other, don't you think?
Dave
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Agreed Dave , we are all in the poo and I just want to see the best for everyone. I have done 18 years for the kipper fleet and I am so sad this is the end. The way the MR2 went was bad enough but this is worse as its the most undignified way to end something so good that has done so much. We never had afterburners and looked good at airshows thats why we were canned.
Anyway I wish you guys the best in whatever the future holds , I have my memories and the good times with all the Squadrons , I will miss you all and have many guys wondering if we are going to hold the mother of all piss ups.
Anyway I wish you guys the best in whatever the future holds , I have my memories and the good times with all the Squadrons , I will miss you all and have many guys wondering if we are going to hold the mother of all piss ups.
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Rigga
because all our other baskets were sacrificed (and are still being sacrificed) to sate the thirst of the omnipotent god that is fast-jet.
Oh Stumpy One
There is a chicken and egg argument here. Cancel MRA4 and keep FJs, thus asking the Coalition for MPA help. Or cancel FJs and keep MRA4, thus asking the Coalition for FJ help. Now seeing as AP3000's first guiding principle is "The ability to project power from the air and space to influence the behaviour of people or the course of events", then the egg (FJ) has just got more important than the chicken (MRA4).
A difficult choice, but I believe the right one - and I have no conflict of interest as I no longer fly FJs.
The B Word
There is a chicken and egg argument here. Cancel MRA4 and keep FJs, thus asking the Coalition for MPA help. Or cancel FJs and keep MRA4, thus asking the Coalition for FJ help. Now seeing as AP3000's first guiding principle is "The ability to project power from the air and space to influence the behaviour of people or the course of events", then the egg (FJ) has just got more important than the chicken (MRA4).
A difficult choice, but I believe the right one - and I have no conflict of interest as I no longer fly FJs.
The B Word
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Retaining LRMP would not have required the total sacrifice of 'Fast Jet.'
Now, If I wanted to attack the UK, I would not send bombers that could be shot down by UK fighters. I would send a pack of submarines, coming from different directions, all armed with cruise missiles. Who now is going to detect and deter them? Their primary targets would be the mere handful of 'Fast Jet' bases and their infrastructure.
Of course, it would take many more than nine LRMP, but that is another story, yet part of the same sorry saga that is Defence of the Realm in the 21st Century.
Now, If I wanted to attack the UK, I would not send bombers that could be shot down by UK fighters. I would send a pack of submarines, coming from different directions, all armed with cruise missiles. Who now is going to detect and deter them? Their primary targets would be the mere handful of 'Fast Jet' bases and their infrastructure.
Of course, it would take many more than nine LRMP, but that is another story, yet part of the same sorry saga that is Defence of the Realm in the 21st Century.
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Thing is this is not the first time we have gone through this, when I joined in the mid 80's there was something like 96000 in the Airforce. Once this is over we will be at about a 1/3 of this. It's a difficult time but you just have to ride through it. No matter what you do, the decision is not yours to make (unless you volunteer, there was lots of volunteers in the mid 90's who did not get redundancy). All you can do is try to keep working hard and don't let your head go down, show yourself as a better prospect than the next man.
The numbers have not been decided yet (I heard about 2600 natural wastage 2400 redundancy, no-one knows how many will volunteer) and even then, it's got to be broken down into trade, rank and target group (time left, engagement ect). This isn't going to be released for about 6 months.
The only difference I can see with APFS '05 is if you are past your initial pension point you only get a half pension until age 55. If you are on AFPS '75 you get a full pension. That's just my take but then again we will have to wait and see what the terms are when released
Tigermate it's a bit more complicated than Pic's. Lots of people in the 90's were let go without their pics going, legally. The main thing is Manning Levels; you can't get rid of say 20 Air Engs and then recruit 20 SAC Mechs to do their job (though some may be better at it).
It's a tough time for all WSOp's (remember we are all one trade now so it is easier for them to re-allocate manpower). We just have to ride it out. I may not survive but I'm certainly not going to worry about what if's.
The numbers have not been decided yet (I heard about 2600 natural wastage 2400 redundancy, no-one knows how many will volunteer) and even then, it's got to be broken down into trade, rank and target group (time left, engagement ect). This isn't going to be released for about 6 months.
The only difference I can see with APFS '05 is if you are past your initial pension point you only get a half pension until age 55. If you are on AFPS '75 you get a full pension. That's just my take but then again we will have to wait and see what the terms are when released
Tigermate it's a bit more complicated than Pic's. Lots of people in the 90's were let go without their pics going, legally. The main thing is Manning Levels; you can't get rid of say 20 Air Engs and then recruit 20 SAC Mechs to do their job (though some may be better at it).
It's a tough time for all WSOp's (remember we are all one trade now so it is easier for them to re-allocate manpower). We just have to ride it out. I may not survive but I'm certainly not going to worry about what if's.
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@ Neptunus Rex:
'if I wanted to attack the UK.....'
Ok mate, if someone is going to attack the UK from multiple submarines with cruise missiles then we have bigger issues at stake here than loss of the MRA4! Luckily, AQ don't have subs (yet).....
I think this thread is getting (understandably) pretty emotional now. I feel for all the people of RAF Kinloss and I too mourn the loss of capability. However, you have all been lucky enough to have the stability of living in one place for many many years while the rest of us got moved every 2-2 1/2 years. Now it is time for you all to join the rest of the RAF. Get looking, get proactive in your search for a job and keep a holiday home in the north of Scotland, while moving yourself and your family into nice cheap SFA at wherever you are lucky enough to get posted too next.
Bored of the bleating, but understand where you are all coming from, however sh*t happens, we adapt and move on or we leave. Good luck, all of you.
'if I wanted to attack the UK.....'
Ok mate, if someone is going to attack the UK from multiple submarines with cruise missiles then we have bigger issues at stake here than loss of the MRA4! Luckily, AQ don't have subs (yet).....
I think this thread is getting (understandably) pretty emotional now. I feel for all the people of RAF Kinloss and I too mourn the loss of capability. However, you have all been lucky enough to have the stability of living in one place for many many years while the rest of us got moved every 2-2 1/2 years. Now it is time for you all to join the rest of the RAF. Get looking, get proactive in your search for a job and keep a holiday home in the north of Scotland, while moving yourself and your family into nice cheap SFA at wherever you are lucky enough to get posted too next.
Bored of the bleating, but understand where you are all coming from, however sh*t happens, we adapt and move on or we leave. Good luck, all of you.
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First of all I agree with most of the comments made on this thread - especially with the pending impact this will have on people's lives and their families. My "princess" comment was harsh, but don't begrudge the next man.
As for redundancy - best of luck to all. Whatever happens, the Kinloss NCA lifestyle has gone, so as Darwin said evolve or die
Its not just up north who are stressing. At the top secret Wilts / Oxon centres of excellence there are a lot of people looking over their shoulders wondering what is going to happen too. If I were a VC10 / Tri* eng right now, I would be smashing the ACOS door trying to get an ALM crossover.
Hard times. But its good to see that those who got you into this mess are getting what they deserve - not
As for redundancy - best of luck to all. Whatever happens, the Kinloss NCA lifestyle has gone, so as Darwin said evolve or die
Its not just up north who are stressing. At the top secret Wilts / Oxon centres of excellence there are a lot of people looking over their shoulders wondering what is going to happen too. If I were a VC10 / Tri* eng right now, I would be smashing the ACOS door trying to get an ALM crossover.
Hard times. But its good to see that those who got you into this mess are getting what they deserve - not
While this is not a personal dig at wokkamate, his comment....
"..you have all been lucky enough to have the stability of living in one place for many many years while the rest of us got moved every 2-2 1/2 years..."
is typical of similar comments made by some on this thread.
I would dispute this particular line of reasoning, or at least the concept that it is rare/lucky - while not claiming that those at Kinloss deserve special treatment.
The question you have to ask is how many other fleets are now single base, and have been for some time, thus providing some aircrew with the possibility of spending an entire flying career at one location.
For example, how many people may have spent their entire flying career at either:
Lyneham
Odiham
Brize Norton
Waddington
Kinloss
You could even argue that with the closure of RAFG some years ago, some people had a considerable period of stability at:
Coltishall
Wittering (Cottesmore is not far to drive)
Yes, geographically Kinloss provides an extreme example, but as the RAF has shrunk over the years many aircraft fleets now occupy only one base, providing potential stability for aircrew who stay on one type.
Oh, and I moved 12 times in my first 20 years in the RAF, so please don't think I have a personal issue with this either way - just trying to be objective!
"..you have all been lucky enough to have the stability of living in one place for many many years while the rest of us got moved every 2-2 1/2 years..."
is typical of similar comments made by some on this thread.
I would dispute this particular line of reasoning, or at least the concept that it is rare/lucky - while not claiming that those at Kinloss deserve special treatment.
The question you have to ask is how many other fleets are now single base, and have been for some time, thus providing some aircrew with the possibility of spending an entire flying career at one location.
For example, how many people may have spent their entire flying career at either:
Lyneham
Odiham
Brize Norton
Waddington
Kinloss
You could even argue that with the closure of RAFG some years ago, some people had a considerable period of stability at:
Coltishall
Wittering (Cottesmore is not far to drive)
Yes, geographically Kinloss provides an extreme example, but as the RAF has shrunk over the years many aircraft fleets now occupy only one base, providing potential stability for aircrew who stay on one type.
Oh, and I moved 12 times in my first 20 years in the RAF, so please don't think I have a personal issue with this either way - just trying to be objective!
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Gents,
For what it's worth I firmly believe that the vast majority of WSOp/WSOs at ISK are more than willing to travel south; some are even happy about this decision. The problem is that there is not going to be that opportunity for the majority;regardless of previous reports and your service history, this will come down to who is the cheapest to get rid.....which is WRONG.
There are guys up here who have 3 or 4 years left till they reach their 12 year exit points and have all the ticks in the box for promotion/extension of service...but will happen? They will go and some inferior personnel with longer contracts will stay..how is that right? Not many will apply for redundancy, which means there are going to be a lot of "wrong" compulsories.
For what it's worth I firmly believe that the vast majority of WSOp/WSOs at ISK are more than willing to travel south; some are even happy about this decision. The problem is that there is not going to be that opportunity for the majority;regardless of previous reports and your service history, this will come down to who is the cheapest to get rid.....which is WRONG.
There are guys up here who have 3 or 4 years left till they reach their 12 year exit points and have all the ticks in the box for promotion/extension of service...but will happen? They will go and some inferior personnel with longer contracts will stay..how is that right? Not many will apply for redundancy, which means there are going to be a lot of "wrong" compulsories.
B Word - don't want to appear a pedant but "The ability to project power from the air and space to influence the behaviour of people or the course of events" can equally apply across the whole spectrum of conflict and types; eg a Nimrod can (sorry, could...) project power either kinetically or with sensors, a RW dropping troops on an objective can seriously influence an enemy as can a FJ "Show of Farce" (spelling deliberate!) The obsession with FJ types thinking that they are the only practioners of air power is as outdated, as, well, I don't know, a maritime nation having a LRMP aircraft....
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I think this is the crux...Bloke sat on E3's who is already fully trained and CR against perhaps a far better operator from Kinloss whom we'd have to spend money on re-training whilst finding the original bloke something else to do!
Being one of the instructors I'd gladly take 6 dry guys tomorrow and train them up on essentially the same ESM system on E3's...Many's the time we have talked [in our office] about making the ESM seat a specialist position for the AEOp's on the fleet rather than diluting it between the whole SO section...Sadly due to reductions in the force we couldn't cope with training them and a shortened (and in my opinion a common sense option) sqn level introduction to the fleet for that very type of employment would never hold water...
Being one of the instructors I'd gladly take 6 dry guys tomorrow and train them up on essentially the same ESM system on E3's...Many's the time we have talked [in our office] about making the ESM seat a specialist position for the AEOp's on the fleet rather than diluting it between the whole SO section...Sadly due to reductions in the force we couldn't cope with training them and a shortened (and in my opinion a common sense option) sqn level introduction to the fleet for that very type of employment would never hold water...
Last edited by Vim_Fuego; 31st Oct 2010 at 18:15.
Neptunus
"armed with cruise missiles" - cruise missiles make perfect targets for fast jets with BVR weapons!
Here's a pic of a Typhoon shooting at a Mirach - about the same size and shape as a cruise missile.
And this is a Mirach
LJ
"armed with cruise missiles" - cruise missiles make perfect targets for fast jets with BVR weapons!
Here's a pic of a Typhoon shooting at a Mirach - about the same size and shape as a cruise missile.
And this is a Mirach
LJ
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"And we're led to believe there is an 18 month waiting list on all Rotary WSOp training due to a bottleneck at Shawbury... You SURE there is spaces? Because there doesn't appear to be any being offered!"
The bottle neck in WSOp training is not at Shawbury!!! It's further down the line! Shawbury is tasked to produce 40 per year and that's exactly what it does.
The bottle neck in WSOp training is not at Shawbury!!! It's further down the line! Shawbury is tasked to produce 40 per year and that's exactly what it does.
Last edited by m+m; 31st Oct 2010 at 16:48. Reason: poor spooling
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It is understandable that an entire fleet of WSOp cannot be retrained overnight onto other flying platforms, however there must be quite a few ALM employed on ground tours doing jobs that are suitable for former AEOp & AEng to complete productively. This may only be glimmer of light, but surely one worth exploring as said ALM should be able to return to their respective fleets seemlessly. In these times a 'respite tour' on the ground should be firmly placed at the back of the que.
Regarding the Rotary Training, surely SARTU (& 84 [Cyprus] Sqn) could afford to loose a few Griffins to 60 Sqn whilst expanding the use of AW139 at Valley, thus enabling DHFS to expand its QHCI staff manning and thus accomodate the retreads. I appreciate that this could send a tsunami of basic crewmen on to Benson & Odiham but if my understanding is correct, the Merlin OCF needs to ramp up again whilst the Puma & Chinook OCF remain in full swing (against expectation regarding Puma).
Or are the newly redundant CHF Naval Aircrewmen usurping the self sustainment of RAF WSOp with cross service transfers to the RAF Merlin Force? ie A bigger picture to the WSOp crisis than has been discussed here thus far.
Assuming RCC Kinloss will be mandated to move, that organisation could provide jobs for WSOp in the interim until this mess stabilises. ....and the system could do a whole lot worse than for once actually be flush with NCA manpower from which the deadwood will fall in competition with the motivated thrusters prepared to go anywhere at anytime; a principle that Manning strive for.
Best not send any AEOp to Careers Offices though for unbiased advice may be hard to deliver. I am sure in the fullness of time, those who seek redundancy will get it and those who are career minded will find a new home, whilst accepting that a turbulent few years is likely to be in abundance.
Regarding the Rotary Training, surely SARTU (& 84 [Cyprus] Sqn) could afford to loose a few Griffins to 60 Sqn whilst expanding the use of AW139 at Valley, thus enabling DHFS to expand its QHCI staff manning and thus accomodate the retreads. I appreciate that this could send a tsunami of basic crewmen on to Benson & Odiham but if my understanding is correct, the Merlin OCF needs to ramp up again whilst the Puma & Chinook OCF remain in full swing (against expectation regarding Puma).
Or are the newly redundant CHF Naval Aircrewmen usurping the self sustainment of RAF WSOp with cross service transfers to the RAF Merlin Force? ie A bigger picture to the WSOp crisis than has been discussed here thus far.
Assuming RCC Kinloss will be mandated to move, that organisation could provide jobs for WSOp in the interim until this mess stabilises. ....and the system could do a whole lot worse than for once actually be flush with NCA manpower from which the deadwood will fall in competition with the motivated thrusters prepared to go anywhere at anytime; a principle that Manning strive for.
Best not send any AEOp to Careers Offices though for unbiased advice may be hard to deliver. I am sure in the fullness of time, those who seek redundancy will get it and those who are career minded will find a new home, whilst accepting that a turbulent few years is likely to be in abundance.
DR,
I don't know how big you think the RCC is, but, unless it has grown considerably since the last time I visited it, it won't provide employment for many WSOps! In addition, what is your cunning plan for re-employing the WSOps currently working in the RCC that you have just displaced, all you have done is replace one problem with a new one of equal size...
Which brings me to my basic point. Prior to the demise of the MRA4, RAF Manning (presumably) had a figure for the number of WSOps and WSOs it would need over the next few years. With the demise of the MRA4 that figure will have to be revised - downwards. I would surmise that some 120-150 WSOps and 40-50 WSOs are no longer required. Let alone considering the impact of the early withdrawl of Sentinel and the C-130J.
That reduction in numbers needs to be managed. That is the challenge that Manning face. I would surmise that natural wastage is unlikely to be enough - therefore redundancies, of whatever sort, are likely to occur. There is a difference between being alarmist and simply not burying your head in the sand
I don't know how big you think the RCC is, but, unless it has grown considerably since the last time I visited it, it won't provide employment for many WSOps! In addition, what is your cunning plan for re-employing the WSOps currently working in the RCC that you have just displaced, all you have done is replace one problem with a new one of equal size...
Which brings me to my basic point. Prior to the demise of the MRA4, RAF Manning (presumably) had a figure for the number of WSOps and WSOs it would need over the next few years. With the demise of the MRA4 that figure will have to be revised - downwards. I would surmise that some 120-150 WSOps and 40-50 WSOs are no longer required. Let alone considering the impact of the early withdrawl of Sentinel and the C-130J.
That reduction in numbers needs to be managed. That is the challenge that Manning face. I would surmise that natural wastage is unlikely to be enough - therefore redundancies, of whatever sort, are likely to occur. There is a difference between being alarmist and simply not burying your head in the sand
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Diablo - "Regarding the Rotary Training, surely SARTU (& 84 [Cyprus] Sqn) could afford to loose a few Griffins to 60 Sqn"
No!
" whilst expanding the use of AW139 at Valley'
AW139 don't 'belong' to DHFS in the same way the Griffin does.
No!
" whilst expanding the use of AW139 at Valley'
AW139 don't 'belong' to DHFS in the same way the Griffin does.
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Biggus,
Fair enough mate, I am a CH47 mate, but in my 17 years in the mob, I have moved a total of 10 times.
My point is more that those who have been based at Kinloss for 20 years (yadda yadda) should consider themselves lucky and not be whinging. I bought a house not because it was convenient for my home base but because it made financial sense but because it was an investment for when I leave, I have always lived in SFA.
The house I bought is central to all my future postings, so I have hedged my bets there, but if I was posted overseas (NATO etc) I would go and not whinge. When one joins the mob, one does it in the full expectation that you MIGHT have to move every two or so years and one should, therefore, be ready and willing to do so - wherever one ends up. Simple.
Take the Queens shilling, abide by her rules and suck it up. Life is about choices, you don't like being mucked about? Don't join the military!
Fair enough mate, I am a CH47 mate, but in my 17 years in the mob, I have moved a total of 10 times.
My point is more that those who have been based at Kinloss for 20 years (yadda yadda) should consider themselves lucky and not be whinging. I bought a house not because it was convenient for my home base but because it made financial sense but because it was an investment for when I leave, I have always lived in SFA.
The house I bought is central to all my future postings, so I have hedged my bets there, but if I was posted overseas (NATO etc) I would go and not whinge. When one joins the mob, one does it in the full expectation that you MIGHT have to move every two or so years and one should, therefore, be ready and willing to do so - wherever one ends up. Simple.
Take the Queens shilling, abide by her rules and suck it up. Life is about choices, you don't like being mucked about? Don't join the military!