WSOp's/WSO's at Kinloss, what does the future hold?
AMP is a rotary mate.....
Ultimately its a numbers game. A lot more FJ mates stay around for a full career (IMHO) as opposed to the ME guys who disappear into the airlines at 38.
Ultimately its a numbers game. A lot more FJ mates stay around for a full career (IMHO) as opposed to the ME guys who disappear into the airlines at 38.
C130jbloke
Your post and subsequent replies reminds me of this famous Monty Python sketch...
Your post and subsequent replies reminds me of this famous Monty Python sketch...
#####
Reg is addressing a room of masked commando’s (MC) some are named eg S,X,F etc
R: We get in through the underground heating system here ... up through to the main audience chamber here ... and Pilate's wife's bedroom is here. Having grabbed his wife, we inform Pilate that she is in our custody and forthwith issue our demands. Any questions?
X : What exactly are the demands?
R : We're giving Pilate two days to dismantle the entire apparatus of the Roman Imperialist State and if he doesn't agree immediately we execute her.
R: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
S : And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
R: Yes.
S: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
R: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us IN RETURN? (he pauses smugly)
X: The aqueduct?
R: What?
X: The aqueduct.
R: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
MC: And the sanitation!
S: Oh yes ... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
R: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans HAVE done ...
M: And the roads ...
R: (sharply) Well YES OBVIOUSLY the roads ... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads ...
MC : Irrigation ...
O: Medicine ... Education ... Health
R: Yes ... all right, fair enough ...
MC : And the wine ...
ALL : Oh yes! True!
F: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
MC: Public baths!
S : AND it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
F: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order ... (general nodding) ... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
(more general murmurs of agreement)
R: All right ... all right ... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order ... what HAVE the Romans ever done for US?
X: Brought peace!
Reg is addressing a room of masked commando’s (MC) some are named eg S,X,F etc
R: We get in through the underground heating system here ... up through to the main audience chamber here ... and Pilate's wife's bedroom is here. Having grabbed his wife, we inform Pilate that she is in our custody and forthwith issue our demands. Any questions?
X : What exactly are the demands?
R : We're giving Pilate two days to dismantle the entire apparatus of the Roman Imperialist State and if he doesn't agree immediately we execute her.
R: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
S : And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
R: Yes.
S: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
R: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us IN RETURN? (he pauses smugly)
X: The aqueduct?
R: What?
X: The aqueduct.
R: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
MC: And the sanitation!
S: Oh yes ... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
R: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans HAVE done ...
M: And the roads ...
R: (sharply) Well YES OBVIOUSLY the roads ... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads ...
MC : Irrigation ...
O: Medicine ... Education ... Health
R: Yes ... all right, fair enough ...
MC : And the wine ...
ALL : Oh yes! True!
F: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
MC: Public baths!
S : AND it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
F: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order ... (general nodding) ... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
(more general murmurs of agreement)
R: All right ... all right ... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order ... what HAVE the Romans ever done for US?
X: Brought peace!
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Eeerrr - OK.
My point is though the TOP job is always FJ. Why ? And why is the AMP ( ie the HR manager ) always a pilot too ? Are we saying all our Admin / Ops Sppt officers are not good enough ? I don't think so
My point is though the TOP job is always FJ. Why ? And why is the AMP ( ie the HR manager ) always a pilot too ? Are we saying all our Admin / Ops Sppt officers are not good enough ? I don't think so
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Hello, I am here.
I am not really that great a poster, so I tend to leave it for when a thread really gets to me. Also, having left the Service in the last 12 months, I do not feel it to be my place to post, unless I have relevance or experience of what is being discussed, or to defend the position of a fellow PPRuNer.
I think it is safe to say I will not be going after BEagle's record....
I am not really that great a poster, so I tend to leave it for when a thread really gets to me. Also, having left the Service in the last 12 months, I do not feel it to be my place to post, unless I have relevance or experience of what is being discussed, or to defend the position of a fellow PPRuNer.
I think it is safe to say I will not be going after BEagle's record....
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NCAs are being given the option to remuster to SNCO ATCs. Manning is trawling now for them. You'll lose your SP(F), but get more cakes... and some radar rooms now have windows, so you'll not think you are an ABM, or whatever they are called this week.
Seemingly, NCA are familiar with communications procedure, console operation, airspace regulations, meteorology and the employment of wider airmanship skills. Ideal candidates to take over all of the TG9 slots from those who aspire to be controllers themselves...
Seemingly, NCA are familiar with communications procedure, console operation, airspace regulations, meteorology and the employment of wider airmanship skills. Ideal candidates to take over all of the TG9 slots from those who aspire to be controllers themselves...
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If I were a WSOp I wouldn't hold out too much hope for an ATC crossover - if ever there was a Branch ripe for civilianisation it is ATC. They are civvies in uniform already! In addition, why should the RAF get rid of highly capable TG9 & 12 operators just to retain a load of jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none 'giz-a-job' NCA?
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NCAs are being given the option to remuster to SNCO ATCs. Manning is trawling now for them. You'll lose your SP(F), but get more cakes... and some radar rooms now have windows, so you'll not think you are an ABM, or whatever they are called this week.
Seemingly, NCA are familiar with communications procedure, console operation, airspace regulations, meteorology and the employment of wider airmanship skills. Ideal candidates to take over all of the TG9 slots from those who aspire to be controllers themselves...
Seemingly, NCA are familiar with communications procedure, console operation, airspace regulations, meteorology and the employment of wider airmanship skills. Ideal candidates to take over all of the TG9 slots from those who aspire to be controllers themselves...
RAF ATC are not qualified in anything that the civilian agencies recognise, it would take around Ł20-Ł30 k to get the qualifications required to move into a civvy job doing the same thing.
The reason its being considered is because direct entrant ATC SNCO's do the same basic training as aircrew. It would effectively be the same as the NCA dude/dudette passing out of basic training and starting ATC training.
These people have a very specific set of skills. The myth that they can cross over to something like ATC with relative ease is just that, a myth. As an ABM I have been involved in the training of 2 X WSOp guys from the Nimrod fleet. Neither was successful.
They worked in a very specific way and it proved nigh on impossible for them to quickly adapt to a different way of doing things. It would be the same if you put an ABM in the back of a Nimrod; fish out of water (no pun intended).
Ex FJ AD backseaters, on the other hand, have had no problems at all. For them it is nothing more than an orientation course.
There is no shortage of applicants for every post in every Branch and, quite frankly, you stand a much higher chance of success with a newbie who comes without any baggage, or someone from the relevant Trade Group who has some understanding of the task.
This is not intended as an 'us and them' attack. Getting rid of the Maritime capability will prove, IMHO, to be a disaster. I hope every one of those affected gets looked after properly.
They worked in a very specific way and it proved nigh on impossible for them to quickly adapt to a different way of doing things. It would be the same if you put an ABM in the back of a Nimrod; fish out of water (no pun intended).
Ex FJ AD backseaters, on the other hand, have had no problems at all. For them it is nothing more than an orientation course.
There is no shortage of applicants for every post in every Branch and, quite frankly, you stand a much higher chance of success with a newbie who comes without any baggage, or someone from the relevant Trade Group who has some understanding of the task.
This is not intended as an 'us and them' attack. Getting rid of the Maritime capability will prove, IMHO, to be a disaster. I hope every one of those affected gets looked after properly.
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Ex FJ backseaters
Not strictly true; on the first "orientation" course there were 2 FJ backseaters and one herc nav, who had done time with the RN AEW Seakings. The "orientation" course turned into the full 28 week (or similar-it's been a long time) course. Two passed (just, with "political" pressure applied) the course, but were subsequently either withdrawn from post-grad training or "sidelined" because they were not cutting the mustard. The third was promoted just as we sere deciding how much flex we could give him in order to try to get him through.
As an ABM I have been involved in the training of 2 X WSOp guys from the Nimrod fleet. Neither was successful.
Most AEOps seem fairly switched on. Are you saying none of them can hack it as Playstation Space Managers or whatever you term yourselves?
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Justanopinion:
Fair point - you are correct and no flaming a pertinant question
.
In the company ( airline ) I work for now its very much a case if you want to get to the top you need to have an overview of the whole set up. It's no good saying you are a pilot or accountant or whatever. It's based very much on leadership ( and getting the nod from the board ). Our last CEO had a background in the food industry but was deemed to have " the right stuff" for what the company needed at a time when it was in deep poo. When I quizzed one of the other directors as to what made this guy worthy of the job the reply was summarized into :
“See the big picture, make the big decisions and protect the bottom line “
And if fairness to him, we are now in better shape than when he arrived.
Between 05 - 07 I also studied for an MSc in Air Transport Management and I looked at the whole leadership thing for the RAF in pretty close detail. This led me to conclude that whilst I would never challenge the caliber of those at the top ( lets be honest - way better than me ) the fact that we limit selection from only a small cadre made me decide that maybe there was a better way of doing things - more people to choose from = better quality ?
As I submitted in a previous post, in the US, SecDef Robert Gates was fed up with the F-22 obsessed leadership in the USAF whilst they were bogged down in AFG / Iraq. That's why he chose to put a shot across some bows and put a truckie in the top job. A different type of Air Force leader - Los Angeles Times
In the Hadden - Cave report, AM Pledger did not come out of it particularly well either. By his own admission, he was not up to the job ( The Nimrod Review - ch 13 para 96 + 102) so it begs the question as to why put a pilot into the top job in the eng and logs world ? I would submit that the HC report backs up my arguement.
My point is that I do not believe for one moment that the RAF has it right with selection from it’s own “fighter mafia” jet jock for the top job - or possibly for that role, of an aircrew mate full stop. I don’t see anywhere in the CAS / AMP job descriptions that you need to have been above average on your F5000, like it does not say you need to be good at shooting for the CGS role on the Army.
Bit of thread creep, but like you said, who am I - as I am looking in.
Food for thought perhaps ?
Fair point - you are correct and no flaming a pertinant question
.In the company ( airline ) I work for now its very much a case if you want to get to the top you need to have an overview of the whole set up. It's no good saying you are a pilot or accountant or whatever. It's based very much on leadership ( and getting the nod from the board ). Our last CEO had a background in the food industry but was deemed to have " the right stuff" for what the company needed at a time when it was in deep poo. When I quizzed one of the other directors as to what made this guy worthy of the job the reply was summarized into :
“See the big picture, make the big decisions and protect the bottom line “
And if fairness to him, we are now in better shape than when he arrived.
Between 05 - 07 I also studied for an MSc in Air Transport Management and I looked at the whole leadership thing for the RAF in pretty close detail. This led me to conclude that whilst I would never challenge the caliber of those at the top ( lets be honest - way better than me ) the fact that we limit selection from only a small cadre made me decide that maybe there was a better way of doing things - more people to choose from = better quality ?
As I submitted in a previous post, in the US, SecDef Robert Gates was fed up with the F-22 obsessed leadership in the USAF whilst they were bogged down in AFG / Iraq. That's why he chose to put a shot across some bows and put a truckie in the top job. A different type of Air Force leader - Los Angeles Times
In the Hadden - Cave report, AM Pledger did not come out of it particularly well either. By his own admission, he was not up to the job ( The Nimrod Review - ch 13 para 96 + 102) so it begs the question as to why put a pilot into the top job in the eng and logs world ? I would submit that the HC report backs up my arguement.
My point is that I do not believe for one moment that the RAF has it right with selection from it’s own “fighter mafia” jet jock for the top job - or possibly for that role, of an aircrew mate full stop. I don’t see anywhere in the CAS / AMP job descriptions that you need to have been above average on your F5000, like it does not say you need to be good at shooting for the CGS role on the Army.
Bit of thread creep, but like you said, who am I - as I am looking in.
Food for thought perhaps ?
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C130jbloke
Thanks for the detailed reply - i absolutely get that in the civilian world, you don't have to be a pilot to be the head of an airline.
I just know that in the Royal Air Force's various branches, promotion wise, it's easier to be a big fish in a small pond than the other way round.
Thanks for the detailed reply - i absolutely get that in the civilian world, you don't have to be a pilot to be the head of an airline.
I just know that in the Royal Air Force's various branches, promotion wise, it's easier to be a big fish in a small pond than the other way round.
Willie Walsh, CEO of British Airways, started life as a pilot with Aer Lingus.
Jim French, CEO of Flybe, started off in British Caledonian (although I believe he held a variety of posts from baggage handler upwards!).
Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, CEO of Air France and Air France KLM, was a fighter a pilot and then commercial pilot.
Sorry mate, but there are examples of CEOs that have come from the operations side of the Airline Business that are doing pretty well!
Jim French, CEO of Flybe, started off in British Caledonian (although I believe he held a variety of posts from baggage handler upwards!).
Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, CEO of Air France and Air France KLM, was a fighter a pilot and then commercial pilot.
Sorry mate, but there are examples of CEOs that have come from the operations side of the Airline Business that are doing pretty well!
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I don't know what the future holds for WSO/WSOPs, however if I was one in Moray, I'd either start studying for a useful qualification and professional membership to help me make the move to Civvy st, or volunteer to learn a useful language (i.e Pashtun, Farsi, Arabic). I assume we are still short of linguists. If the RAF don't keep you the SIS, Security Service, GCHQ, HMGCC will give you a job.
I assume the Army will takeover Kinloss and all the other soon to be vacated RAF bases (Lossie/Halton/Cottesmore/Scampton/Boscombe) which should help the local area housing market. If you want a guranteed posting for your career, I think the only safe bet is Air Cmd.
I assume the Army will takeover Kinloss and all the other soon to be vacated RAF bases (Lossie/Halton/Cottesmore/Scampton/Boscombe) which should help the local area housing market. If you want a guranteed posting for your career, I think the only safe bet is Air Cmd.
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soon to be vacated RAF bases (Lossie/Halton/Cottesmore/Scampton/Boscombe)
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The B word :
You are correct, but I never said pilots could not do it - by their nature they are extremely analytical so why not. My point was that for the top job(s), you can come from any discipline as long as you have the skills to manage the big picture and not because of historical precedent.
I agree with your example(s), though in the case of Walsh BA took him on because of the job he did with Aer Lingus - ie saving the company by a reorganization of the loss making segments of the company.
Sadly none of this helps the guys up at ISK
You are correct, but I never said pilots could not do it - by their nature they are extremely analytical so why not. My point was that for the top job(s), you can come from any discipline as long as you have the skills to manage the big picture and not because of historical precedent.
I agree with your example(s), though in the case of Walsh BA took him on because of the job he did with Aer Lingus - ie saving the company by a reorganization of the loss making segments of the company.
Sadly none of this helps the guys up at ISK
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Army move to Kinloss
That would be interesting as the last time I looked they had demolished quite a few of the quarters there. Lots of green lawns, so all of a sudden the simple expedient of taking over an RAF station involves capital outlay as they have to build enough houses for the troops. Mind you they are building locally so maybe we will go back to the old days of hirings.
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Maybe try getting your CV out to these guys 
AAI to develop sensors to help UAVs detect and attack submarines and surface warships - Military & Aerospace Electronics
AAI to develop sensors to help UAVs detect and attack submarines and surface warships - Military & Aerospace Electronics