Flying the Canberra
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BBadanov,
Good notes on the B.20 and 21. Have to agree with you on the strange decision not to change the numbering when GAF made the uprated batch, but I suppose it all adds to the enjoyable confusion that is the international Canberra
I am in touch with a former 2 Sqn nav over at the Canberra Crazy - Login forum who has some cracking war stories from Vietnam. Just as with the Argentines and Rhodesians, I have a lot of respect for the Aussies and their usage of the Can. As you point out, another country that only flew with two crew. Seems that despite the 'book' seeing the need for three crew initially, Petter had it right from the start with his original B.1 design that it could be done with pilot and nav only. Very interesting about Sky Dump (Skyspot) and blind bombing, and of course your RAAF stats on accuracy and minimal losses compared to B-57 crews are worth noting. That said, I am not making a truly fair comparison considering the USAF role for the Can was more of an interdictor-bomber, and in no way meant as a sleight on the American crews who were bloody brave and professional too.
Good notes on the B.20 and 21. Have to agree with you on the strange decision not to change the numbering when GAF made the uprated batch, but I suppose it all adds to the enjoyable confusion that is the international Canberra
I am in touch with a former 2 Sqn nav over at the Canberra Crazy - Login forum who has some cracking war stories from Vietnam. Just as with the Argentines and Rhodesians, I have a lot of respect for the Aussies and their usage of the Can. As you point out, another country that only flew with two crew. Seems that despite the 'book' seeing the need for three crew initially, Petter had it right from the start with his original B.1 design that it could be done with pilot and nav only. Very interesting about Sky Dump (Skyspot) and blind bombing, and of course your RAAF stats on accuracy and minimal losses compared to B-57 crews are worth noting. That said, I am not making a truly fair comparison considering the USAF role for the Can was more of an interdictor-bomber, and in no way meant as a sleight on the American crews who were bloody brave and professional too.
nazcar_steve: Very interesting about Sky Dump (Skyspot) and blind bombing, and of course your RAAF stats on accuracy and minimal losses compared to B-57 crews are worth noting. That said, I am not making a truly fair comparison considering the USAF role for the Can was more of an interdictor-bomber, and in no way meant as a sleight on the American crews who were bloody brave and professional too.
They were embedded in the 35th TFW at Phan Rang as there were 2 ANG B-57 units there - I think 8 TBS and 13 TBS (or was that TFS?) - but these were replaced by F-100s by 1969. The US crews were great - but operated in hotter places and in a very demanding dive bomb role.
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Roger that, I have heard some amazing stories about the cooperation between FACs and Callsign Magpie, really good team work and results. You should pick up the new Osprey book entitled 'B-57 Canberra Units of the Vietnam War' by T.E. Bell. Aside from telling the US story (a damn good read), there is a chapter on 2 Sqn and some really nice profile art for B-57s and B.20s.
Certainly in 1964 the guys who got posted to Canberras were from the fast jet stream (as opposed to the twin engined stream as nothing was hugely fast then).
From my course at Valley (22 Gnat) there were postings to Lightning, Canberra strike and PR (and me to strike Canberra course then 360) and V Force. Don't think anyone got Hunters
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Canberra B20
BBadonov
On 45 Sqn at Tengah 1962-4, I thought we had a rather guarded relationship with the Canberras at Butterworth (2? Sqn RAAF). They seemed a bit grumpy and their mess was a bit dull. We never seemed to operate together as we did with the RNZAF B12s on their regular deployments into theatre.
I have a clear (if unreliable) memory that, while the Aussie aircraft had the engines of the B6 type, very importantly they lacked the stronger wing that we assumed was essential for low-level work. The integral wing fuel will have taken some of the load, of course.
Fairly soon after I arrived on 45 Sqn, before we swapped our B2s for the B6 type (actually B15s), we lost a lovely crew when its aircraft broke up while bombing on China Rock. So there was a sense that the Aussies were unnecessarily inviting bad luck by persisting with the old and weaker airframe. I have always assumed that a weaker airframe would have cramped their style when they were later deployed to Vietnam.
Perhaps the Aussies operated rather staidly to compensate. That would fully explain why brash young chaps like me were a bit sniffy of of them and why (if true) the B20 fleet, in peace and conflict, maintained a better loss rate than the RAF and USAF Canberra forces.
The first 27 were basically B.2s, with what we called Avon Mk.1s, limited integral wing fuel tanks (total was 14.6k LB), and bugger-all avionics. The remaining 21 B.20s were based on the B.6, with Avon 109s, increased integral fuel ...
I have a clear (if unreliable) memory that, while the Aussie aircraft had the engines of the B6 type, very importantly they lacked the stronger wing that we assumed was essential for low-level work. The integral wing fuel will have taken some of the load, of course.
Fairly soon after I arrived on 45 Sqn, before we swapped our B2s for the B6 type (actually B15s), we lost a lovely crew when its aircraft broke up while bombing on China Rock. So there was a sense that the Aussies were unnecessarily inviting bad luck by persisting with the old and weaker airframe. I have always assumed that a weaker airframe would have cramped their style when they were later deployed to Vietnam.
Perhaps the Aussies operated rather staidly to compensate. That would fully explain why brash young chaps like me were a bit sniffy of of them and why (if true) the B20 fleet, in peace and conflict, maintained a better loss rate than the RAF and USAF Canberra forces.
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Very interesting indeed. I can't say with any certainty that the older wing was the reason behind a more conservative approach to ops in Vietnam. What I do know is that the Aussie crews were fitted with optical bomb sights which their USAF counterparts in the B-57 did not have, hence they were able to visually bomb from straight flight and low level rather than dive-bomb. I have been told that in some of these sorties they received shrapnel damage from their own bomb runs, so pretty low. Nevertheless, yes, they would most likely avoided low-level, high-G strike action like the B.15/16 were intended to fulfill. I will happily be corrected if this was also part of the RAAF Canberra role.
Whatever the case, the Canberra wing fatigue was certainly an issue for the Rhodesian Air Force, and stress was a considerably limiting factor for them. Nevertheless, when you consider they were operating essentially unmodified B.2s under sanctions and a handful of original spares, their technicians worked miracles to keep as many flying for as long and under combat conditions for so long. While not the only non-RAF operators to modify and adapt their Cans for local demands, I think the RhAF were pretty amazing in what they achieved in making the Canberra a viable COIN bomber.
I am assuming that the Argentine and Ethiopian B.62 and 52 had strengthened wings for their underwing payloads, despite still being based on the B.2 engine series.
Whatever the case, the Canberra wing fatigue was certainly an issue for the Rhodesian Air Force, and stress was a considerably limiting factor for them. Nevertheless, when you consider they were operating essentially unmodified B.2s under sanctions and a handful of original spares, their technicians worked miracles to keep as many flying for as long and under combat conditions for so long. While not the only non-RAF operators to modify and adapt their Cans for local demands, I think the RhAF were pretty amazing in what they achieved in making the Canberra a viable COIN bomber.
I am assuming that the Argentine and Ethiopian B.62 and 52 had strengthened wings for their underwing payloads, despite still being based on the B.2 engine series.
RhAF Canberras (and Hunters, Vampires and Alouettes)
There are a few short video snippets showing RhAF Canberras in this starting from about 4m30s in (although there are more pics of Hunters etc)
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Lucky escape!
This has probably done the rounds before but perhaps worth telling on a thread about the Canberra.
Whilst serving at Bassingbourn during the early 60's, as a cpl tech, I recall an incident (which later appeared in 'Air Clues') regarding a train of events that could have been disastrous.
A student crew were on a night sortie at 20,000ft or so when the pilot called up the nav for a routine oxygen check. In spite of several attempts he couldn't make contact so, believing the nav may be suffering from anoxia he put the a/c into a spiral dive. The nav, upon seeing the altimeter unwinding at great speed tried to contact the pilot, to no avail. Believing the pilot may be suffering from anoxia he unstrapped and went forward to find the pilot hunched over the controls (apparently he was peering closely at the panel). The nav, convinced the pilot had passed out and that they were out of control attempted to pull back the stick. At this, the pilot looked up and decided that although the nav. had come round he was still suffering from the effects of anoxia. After a bit of a tussle over the controls the pilot took the hydraulic emergency pump handle and hit the nav on the head telling him to 'go back to his seat' or some such words! It transpired that the intercom had failed and they eventually made a safe landing.
The result of this incident was a mod consisting of two dolls eyes for each crew member indicating that his, and the other crew member's oxygen was flowing.
As 'Wing Commander Spry' commented 'a good story to tell in the bar but also a good illustration of how things can quickly go wrong.'
Whilst serving at Bassingbourn during the early 60's, as a cpl tech, I recall an incident (which later appeared in 'Air Clues') regarding a train of events that could have been disastrous.
A student crew were on a night sortie at 20,000ft or so when the pilot called up the nav for a routine oxygen check. In spite of several attempts he couldn't make contact so, believing the nav may be suffering from anoxia he put the a/c into a spiral dive. The nav, upon seeing the altimeter unwinding at great speed tried to contact the pilot, to no avail. Believing the pilot may be suffering from anoxia he unstrapped and went forward to find the pilot hunched over the controls (apparently he was peering closely at the panel). The nav, convinced the pilot had passed out and that they were out of control attempted to pull back the stick. At this, the pilot looked up and decided that although the nav. had come round he was still suffering from the effects of anoxia. After a bit of a tussle over the controls the pilot took the hydraulic emergency pump handle and hit the nav on the head telling him to 'go back to his seat' or some such words! It transpired that the intercom had failed and they eventually made a safe landing.
The result of this incident was a mod consisting of two dolls eyes for each crew member indicating that his, and the other crew member's oxygen was flowing.
As 'Wing Commander Spry' commented 'a good story to tell in the bar but also a good illustration of how things can quickly go wrong.'
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Hi Goudie,
indeed a fascinating story, and yes, really illustrates how things can 'spiral' out of control. Lucky it ended well and the mod came out of it. Do you (or anyone else) happen to remember where and when this incident happened? If not no probs, as it is your recollection from the time, and I'd like to include it in the book. If you are ok with this, could you PM me your details for crediting?
I am sure there are a lot of good anecdotes buried in threads on this forum, so if you come across any you think of note, please do post a link on here and I will track down the authors.
t43562 Love that vid, great to see the RhAF fleet there, and of course the B.2 coming in there...nice crosswind gust at just before touch down at 4:36. I know this is a Canberra thread, but would you look at that glorious Hunter at 4:56. I see a lot of glossy paintwork here and roundels too, which shows this is still before the height of the 'Strela' era when these disappeared. Great vid.
indeed a fascinating story, and yes, really illustrates how things can 'spiral' out of control. Lucky it ended well and the mod came out of it. Do you (or anyone else) happen to remember where and when this incident happened? If not no probs, as it is your recollection from the time, and I'd like to include it in the book. If you are ok with this, could you PM me your details for crediting?
I am sure there are a lot of good anecdotes buried in threads on this forum, so if you come across any you think of note, please do post a link on here and I will track down the authors.
t43562 Love that vid, great to see the RhAF fleet there, and of course the B.2 coming in there...nice crosswind gust at just before touch down at 4:36. I know this is a Canberra thread, but would you look at that glorious Hunter at 4:56. I see a lot of glossy paintwork here and roundels too, which shows this is still before the height of the 'Strela' era when these disappeared. Great vid.
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Goudie
I have also heard that story and from what I can recall your account is accurate.
I have also "tussled" with a pilot but for a different reason. We were down to fly a "LoPro" (Low Level Probe), a particularly useless "war" mission. The concept was to formate below an MRR aircraft (a Vulcan in this case (27 Sqn?)) flying at high level 35K+ and when they wanted an id on a surface contact, they would point us in the right direction and launch us at about 40nm. We would start a stop watch for ranging and descend at max rate, which for a Canberra, with ABs, was about 8-10k a minute. There was a nav (the funniest man I ever met) in the back and I acted as the observer looking for the contact in the front next to the pilot (I was small enough to be able to stand next to him).
The pilot, who was on his first flight after just coming out of hospital following an operation on his sinuses, collapsed in agony at 12,000ft. As a very junior nav (3rd month into my first tour) this was a big shock as we were about 1.5 minutes to stumpfing in. After the "tussle", the pilot came round and we slowly climbed back up until the pain eased. The sortie was called off and we made a very very slow descent into St Mawgan.
Yes, I know. What lunatic would put himself on such a profile after such an op. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The funny nav? - I'll give you a clue. He once flew on 7 Sqn, on 7/7/1977 with Air Cdre Dick de Severne (who I think was some wheel in 18Grp) as his pilot. After his last 1369, I asked him what the boss said (knowing he had done b***r all for his last year in the RAF). "Very complimentary " he said, "he's made me his sexual advisor". "Really" I remarked, quite astounded (and niaively). "Yes",he replied, "He distinctly told me - when I want your f***ing advice S****, I shall ask for it".
I have also heard that story and from what I can recall your account is accurate.
I have also "tussled" with a pilot but for a different reason. We were down to fly a "LoPro" (Low Level Probe), a particularly useless "war" mission. The concept was to formate below an MRR aircraft (a Vulcan in this case (27 Sqn?)) flying at high level 35K+ and when they wanted an id on a surface contact, they would point us in the right direction and launch us at about 40nm. We would start a stop watch for ranging and descend at max rate, which for a Canberra, with ABs, was about 8-10k a minute. There was a nav (the funniest man I ever met) in the back and I acted as the observer looking for the contact in the front next to the pilot (I was small enough to be able to stand next to him).
The pilot, who was on his first flight after just coming out of hospital following an operation on his sinuses, collapsed in agony at 12,000ft. As a very junior nav (3rd month into my first tour) this was a big shock as we were about 1.5 minutes to stumpfing in. After the "tussle", the pilot came round and we slowly climbed back up until the pain eased. The sortie was called off and we made a very very slow descent into St Mawgan.
Yes, I know. What lunatic would put himself on such a profile after such an op. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The funny nav? - I'll give you a clue. He once flew on 7 Sqn, on 7/7/1977 with Air Cdre Dick de Severne (who I think was some wheel in 18Grp) as his pilot. After his last 1369, I asked him what the boss said (knowing he had done b***r all for his last year in the RAF). "Very complimentary " he said, "he's made me his sexual advisor". "Really" I remarked, quite astounded (and niaively). "Yes",he replied, "He distinctly told me - when I want your f***ing advice S****, I shall ask for it".
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Sounds rather frightening there, I cannot imagine tussling with anyone in the confines of a Canberra cockpit would ever be easy, let alone with my life in danger and the a/c in a descent. One question about the LoPro sortie you were flying - if I have followed it correctly the Vulcan was looking to pick you up on its radar, or by visual contact? You said you were acting as observer looking for the contact but why was this necessary if the purpose was for them to pick you up on radar? Bear with me here, I know I may well have missed something but am curious.
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nazca_steve
I don't wish to derail this excellent discussion on the Canberra but I presume you are aware of the book on the Rhodesian Airforce?
"Winds of Destruction: The Autobiography of a Rhodesian Combat Pilot" by P. J. H. Petter-Bowyer.
Again please don't let this hijack this thread.
John
I don't wish to derail this excellent discussion on the Canberra but I presume you are aware of the book on the Rhodesian Airforce?
"Winds of Destruction: The Autobiography of a Rhodesian Combat Pilot" by P. J. H. Petter-Bowyer.
Again please don't let this hijack this thread.
John
Last edited by rjtjrt; 20th Feb 2012 at 04:47.
I'm sure a SME will be along shortly, Steve, but my understanding is that the MRR (Maritime Radar Reconnaissance) Vulcan, having picked-up a surface contact (ship) on radar, would dispatch the Canberra to get a visual identification.
Correct. Having done some of this boring boat-spotting stuff on 35 Sqn as our secondary role, I can confirm that the 'LoPro' involved joining with a Canberra, updating its clockwork nav kit from the Vulcan's NBS by the highly secure method of reading out the lat/long over a UHF frequency 
before despatching the Canberra off to identify something we'd seen on radar... I think we gave him the target's range and bearing from some reference point rather than giving him lat/long over the RT though...
The Canberra would descend towards the ocean, wind itself up to max chat and attempt to identify the surface contact visually. We expected that, should we ever have had to do this nonsense for real, probably all we would have heard would have been "It's a KrestaARGHHH!" as the Canberra was shot down.
'Selfpro' was much more fun and we once spent a happy few hours on a Solar Flare charging around the Mediterranean chasing Greek tankers which the nav team had selected as our target. Trouble was, we weren't deconflicted from other players and were soon on the receiving end of a snottygram from some boat person at some maritime HQ for having blundered into an area being used by a Nimrod which had been shadowing some Sovietski subski. Our DetCo back in Malta asked them why they hadn't warned us in advance and was stuffily told that their operations were 'secret'. "Tough $hit, sunshine, we'll be around for another week, so expect more of the same....CLICK!" was the response.
before despatching the Canberra off to identify something we'd seen on radar... I think we gave him the target's range and bearing from some reference point rather than giving him lat/long over the RT though...The Canberra would descend towards the ocean, wind itself up to max chat and attempt to identify the surface contact visually. We expected that, should we ever have had to do this nonsense for real, probably all we would have heard would have been "It's a KrestaARGHHH!" as the Canberra was shot down.
'Selfpro' was much more fun and we once spent a happy few hours on a Solar Flare charging around the Mediterranean chasing Greek tankers which the nav team had selected as our target. Trouble was, we weren't deconflicted from other players and were soon on the receiving end of a snottygram from some boat person at some maritime HQ for having blundered into an area being used by a Nimrod which had been shadowing some Sovietski subski. Our DetCo back in Malta asked them why they hadn't warned us in advance and was stuffily told that their operations were 'secret'. "Tough $hit, sunshine, we'll be around for another week, so expect more of the same....CLICK!" was the response.
Last edited by BEagle; 20th Feb 2012 at 11:36.
The late Chris Dixon voiced an opinion on the weak wings of the Rhodesian Canberras during the "Green Leader" raid:-
"Oh Sh1t, I hope the fcuking wings don't fall off"
This web site has more specific info on the problem :-
Rhodesia Aviation
Here are two items about it, firstly about the crash of R2510 :-
English Electric Canberra B2. 'R2510' of N.5 Squadron, Rhodesian Air Force.
This aircraft was returning to the Airwork hangar in April 1971 after a flight test, having undergone major maintenance with Airwork who had the contract from the RhAF for this work. Many of the Airwork employees were ex Royal Air Force with years of experience on the British jet aircraft used by the Rhodesian Air Force. This particular aircraft is reported to be ex RAF 'WJ578 of 27 Squadron RAF before being acquired by Rhodesia in 1959. I remember the shock I felt when later that year I heard that this aircraft had crashed off the end of '06' at Salisbury on the evening of 16th November 1971, both crew members were killed, Fl.Lt.A.G.Roughead (pilot) and Air Lt.G.N.Robertson (Nav). The aircraft had suffered a 'Frame 21' failure, a crack within the frame of the main wing/airframe attachment point caused by metal fatigue. This became a serious problem for the Rhodesian Air Force Canberras, many being grounded in later years.
Secondly, about a T4, R2175 :-
This aircraft was grounded in 1974 because of a cracked wing spar, a big problem with the Canberras in the Rhodesian Air Force, brought about by metal fatigue in Frame 21 within the fuselage of the Canberra, this was the main wing attachment frame. A known problem as these aircraft were early Canberras using metal alloys developed during WW2, this was resolved in later Canberras, such as those supplied to the SAAF which utilised more modern metal alloys in their construction. Flights at low level in bumpy conditions which put a great strain on the wing attachments were avoided but many 5 Squadron aircraft were grounded as time went by.
"Oh Sh1t, I hope the fcuking wings don't fall off"
This web site has more specific info on the problem :-
Rhodesia Aviation
Here are two items about it, firstly about the crash of R2510 :-
English Electric Canberra B2. 'R2510' of N.5 Squadron, Rhodesian Air Force.
This aircraft was returning to the Airwork hangar in April 1971 after a flight test, having undergone major maintenance with Airwork who had the contract from the RhAF for this work. Many of the Airwork employees were ex Royal Air Force with years of experience on the British jet aircraft used by the Rhodesian Air Force. This particular aircraft is reported to be ex RAF 'WJ578 of 27 Squadron RAF before being acquired by Rhodesia in 1959. I remember the shock I felt when later that year I heard that this aircraft had crashed off the end of '06' at Salisbury on the evening of 16th November 1971, both crew members were killed, Fl.Lt.A.G.Roughead (pilot) and Air Lt.G.N.Robertson (Nav). The aircraft had suffered a 'Frame 21' failure, a crack within the frame of the main wing/airframe attachment point caused by metal fatigue. This became a serious problem for the Rhodesian Air Force Canberras, many being grounded in later years.
Secondly, about a T4, R2175 :-
This aircraft was grounded in 1974 because of a cracked wing spar, a big problem with the Canberras in the Rhodesian Air Force, brought about by metal fatigue in Frame 21 within the fuselage of the Canberra, this was the main wing attachment frame. A known problem as these aircraft were early Canberras using metal alloys developed during WW2, this was resolved in later Canberras, such as those supplied to the SAAF which utilised more modern metal alloys in their construction. Flights at low level in bumpy conditions which put a great strain on the wing attachments were avoided but many 5 Squadron aircraft were grounded as time went by.
Last edited by Argonautical; 20th Feb 2012 at 12:38.
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Hello John and Argonautical,
Talking about Canberras of any nation, let alone Rhodesia of which I have a good deal of interest is NEVER derailing a discussion! I could talk about this till the cows come home. W of D is an excellent read of which I finished late last year. I have since been in contact with Peter PB and also Mike Hamence, co-author of Canberra in Southern African Service, who have both been extremely helpful and in a large part inspired me to crack on with this project. Ref the wing spar problems, Mike did a massive amount of research on this, most of which is over my head, but suffice to say, the RhAF crews were brave, and the ground crews miracle-workers.
Beagle and diginagain,
thanks very much for clearing up how MRR with the Vulcan worked, there's the nitwit me thinking the Canberra itself was the contact! Won't be the first or last time I commit a proper civvie blunder like that, as always cheers for enlightening me. Beagle, PM coming your way about your 35 Sqn experiences.
Talking about Canberras of any nation, let alone Rhodesia of which I have a good deal of interest is NEVER derailing a discussion! I could talk about this till the cows come home. W of D is an excellent read of which I finished late last year. I have since been in contact with Peter PB and also Mike Hamence, co-author of Canberra in Southern African Service, who have both been extremely helpful and in a large part inspired me to crack on with this project. Ref the wing spar problems, Mike did a massive amount of research on this, most of which is over my head, but suffice to say, the RhAF crews were brave, and the ground crews miracle-workers.
Beagle and diginagain,
thanks very much for clearing up how MRR with the Vulcan worked, there's the nitwit me thinking the Canberra itself was the contact! Won't be the first or last time I commit a proper civvie blunder like that, as always cheers for enlightening me. Beagle, PM coming your way about your 35 Sqn experiences.