Nimrod MRA.4
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PR
So obviously your talking P8, care to explain how this is better than a MRA4 ?
Incidentally seeing as there is an age factor creeping into this discussion the 737 design is nearly 50 years old (1964) and incorporates a high percentage (60%) of 727 components.
With any luck it will have jet engines rather then second hand P3s and have a twenty year + service ahead of it.
Incidentally seeing as there is an age factor creeping into this discussion the 737 design is nearly 50 years old (1964) and incorporates a high percentage (60%) of 727 components.
So obviously your talking P8, care to explain how this is better than a MRA4 ?
The fact that the MRA4 might have been more capable than the P8 is neither here nor there. With the money we have available, a decent number of the 80% solution beats an inadequate number of the 100% solution every time. That is something we are going to have to get used to across defence.
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Optimistic I may be and I am not a kipper fleet insider, but I did note that not one AEOp Sgt was required under redundancy tranche one and I have heard reliable rumours of the younger AEOp fraternity being 'parked' at home and abroad from were they can be recovered at a later date. The ASW 'experience' will be badly diluted I accept, but equally the younger blood are easier to train new toys with, and a few old and bold held in a training role would make a big difference. MPA Maritime Patrol Aircraft and there will be times in the coming years when the gap becomes negative front page news. BAe will smart for a while but time will heal as the dust collects on the Woodford sheds and a 'need' will be addressed with a cost effective off-the-shelf purchase of a new toy. I am not convinced that it will automatically be american as the japanese also have a purpose built aircraft and you can bet that the folk at Airbus Industries are looking very closely at future projects. After all, we are talking about an airframe of appropriate size at this time and whilst I have heard the rhetoric of how aerodynamically robust the airframe must be, the Nimrod was only ever a developed Comet and therefore precident set. Timing will always be down to public opinion and economic recovery and I suspect that nobody has a realistic guestimate of that, but my guess for what its worth is that a UK Mil roundel will adorn an MPA aircraft before the end of 2016. Navy or RAF is another debate, and I doubt that the numbers of airframes, squadrons and crews seen during the Cold War era will ever be seen again. In fact my expectation is for a single squadron with sufficient crews for 365/24 coverage. I hope that any decisions are not based on multi-role airframes such as AT or AAR double-hatting.
my guess for what its worth is that a UK Mil roundel will adorn an MPA aircraft before the end of 2016
I would say there is a better than even chance that it will never appear again. Why ? Because the economy and MOD budget in particular is not going to be 'flush' with cash for new projects for another decade or so. And after a decade of no risk materialising, nobody will have the appetite or justification for its resurrection, without running the risk of looking like a plonker.
On the off chance the idea does gain ground, I would say 2025 at the very earliest. Forget any money in this parliament, so thats 2014 gone before anyone would dare be caught trying to justify the OR, and whomever wins the election after that will either want to put more money into the soap dodgers, or on other public infrastructure projects, and thats 2018 before anyone has any money. And by then one would assume that with only Typhoon and F35 in service, RAF eyes will be on more fast toys than in patrolling the borders.
So give it until 2025 then for whatever the MOD is called then to get an existing platform and system changed sufficiently to make a three year projects into a seven year one and there you go. All done.
And by then one would assume that with only Typhoon and F35 in service, RAF eyes will be on more fast toys than in patrolling the borders.
That's not to say that MRA4 could have been saved by cutting something else instead; there were other issues at work, as endlessly discussed above. However I think that future reinstatement of MPA would come significantly above further fast jet purchases or enhancements in future spending plans.
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Personally, I think that the fact the there were no Sgt WSOp in the tranche 1 redundancy fields is a red herring. I would not be surprised if they find themselves in the field come September.
Duncs
Duncs
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The End
What went on behind those screens - The Final Solution
Those of a nervous disposition look the other way.
Those of a nervous disposition look the other way.
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Ferry C340 twenty years ago
Dear collegue,
I just happened to find your remark about that ferry pilot who owes his life to the crew of a Royal Airforce Nimrod just about 20 years ago.
Reading your words remind me of the endless hours on the flight deck of a nice airplane I ferried from North Dakota to Istanbul and in which I was sure to leave the party after getting struck by lightning in FL 250.
The only radio that had been switched off when I touched the outskirts of that CB gave me the opportunity to make a relay to an airliner crossing 52 North 35 West to pass him my home phone number to say goodbye to my wife in Frankfurt. I was just out there without any nav equipment and two knocked out GPS receivers. I was aware of the fact that I had no chance at all.
Then a Nimrod was scrambled in Kinloss to look out for me and finally found me 200 miles north of my calculated course and guided me safely to Shannon.
You are perfectly right to say that it was the Nimrod crew that saved me.
After the incident I continued to work as a doctor and of course also worked in England as a GP. My English patients never guessed why this doctor was so charming and helpful. He never forgot that it was a Royal Airforce Nimrod that saved his life years ago. I never forgot this. A picture of the Nimrod is in my office, all of the crew have signed it. And althogh I don't know any of them exept the Commander I met in Kinloss weeks later, I do know that without them I'd be just one of many nameless ferry pilots who dindn't make it.
Kind regards
Werner Soehlmann M.D.
I just happened to find your remark about that ferry pilot who owes his life to the crew of a Royal Airforce Nimrod just about 20 years ago.
Reading your words remind me of the endless hours on the flight deck of a nice airplane I ferried from North Dakota to Istanbul and in which I was sure to leave the party after getting struck by lightning in FL 250.
The only radio that had been switched off when I touched the outskirts of that CB gave me the opportunity to make a relay to an airliner crossing 52 North 35 West to pass him my home phone number to say goodbye to my wife in Frankfurt. I was just out there without any nav equipment and two knocked out GPS receivers. I was aware of the fact that I had no chance at all.
Then a Nimrod was scrambled in Kinloss to look out for me and finally found me 200 miles north of my calculated course and guided me safely to Shannon.
You are perfectly right to say that it was the Nimrod crew that saved me.
After the incident I continued to work as a doctor and of course also worked in England as a GP. My English patients never guessed why this doctor was so charming and helpful. He never forgot that it was a Royal Airforce Nimrod that saved his life years ago. I never forgot this. A picture of the Nimrod is in my office, all of the crew have signed it. And althogh I don't know any of them exept the Commander I met in Kinloss weeks later, I do know that without them I'd be just one of many nameless ferry pilots who dindn't make it.
Kind regards
Werner Soehlmann M.D.
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once it all goes quite I suspect we'll re-instate some sort of MPA capability - but it won't be anything like a Nimrod - a beefed up CN-235 probably
the emphasis will be fisheries patrol & environmental work and occasional search & rescue stuff - no need for all the other clutter
the emphasis will be fisheries patrol & environmental work and occasional search & rescue stuff - no need for all the other clutter
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ag and Fish (MAFF and DAF(S)) paid for 70% of 3 aircraft and DOE paid for 30%. Eventually they decided that we were too expensive and bought their own aircraft.
If these are the roles you propose then the buy and costs would not fall to the MOD.
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Ferry C340 twenty years ago
Mailbird 48 wrote
It was actually three months short of 19 years ago. My log book entry for 12 September 1993 reads - Nimrod MR2 XV 227. Captain, Self. Flight Details, SAR. Shepherd Cessna 340 N9862F to Shannon. 6.15 Night.
Crew 3 CXX Sqn. The BBC made an episode of 999 out of it a couple of months later which is when we met Werner, a rare chance to actually speak with someone we helped to rescue.
Incidentally, I did meet someone else I was involved in rescuing. Round the world solo yachtsman Tony Bullimore. He owes his life in no uncertain terms to the capability to conduct long range airborne search and rescue - there was no alternative in those latitudes of the Southern Ocean.
Can't help wondering how many people might not be so lucky while we haven't got the SAR dimension provided by a LRMPA. Perhaps not a reason in itself to justify regaining the capability, but there are so many others...................
Then a Nimrod was scrambled in Kinloss to look out for me and finally found me 200 miles north of my calculated course and guided me safely to Shannon.
Crew 3 CXX Sqn. The BBC made an episode of 999 out of it a couple of months later which is when we met Werner, a rare chance to actually speak with someone we helped to rescue.
Incidentally, I did meet someone else I was involved in rescuing. Round the world solo yachtsman Tony Bullimore. He owes his life in no uncertain terms to the capability to conduct long range airborne search and rescue - there was no alternative in those latitudes of the Southern Ocean.
Can't help wondering how many people might not be so lucky while we haven't got the SAR dimension provided by a LRMPA. Perhaps not a reason in itself to justify regaining the capability, but there are so many others...................
HH
What makes you think that fishery patrol and environmental monitoring in UK waters using fixed wing aviation assets isn't currently still happening, despite the lack of an MOD MPA fleet?
What makes you think that fishery patrol and environmental monitoring in UK waters using fixed wing aviation assets isn't currently still happening, despite the lack of an MOD MPA fleet?
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. Welcome to the forums
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Sadly we are not the only ones downsizing
.
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 3rd Jun 2012 at 13:22.
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Government Civilian Maritime Aviation
Biggus Said:
Good question. Current Govt (non-military) maritime aviation in the UK is provided as follows:
Aircraft Type Total Role Operator
AgustaWestland AW 139 x3 Search & Rescue CHC
Britten-Norman BN-2A-26 Islander x1 Surveillance AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
Lockheed L-188 Electra x2 Pollution Spraying AAT
Sikorsky S-92 x4 Search & Rescue CHC
AAT = operated by Atlantic Air Transport Ltd under contract.
CHC = operated by CHC Scotia under contract.
Sun Who
HH
What makes you think that fishery patrol and environmental monitoring in UK waters using fixed wing aviation assets isn't currently still happening, despite the lack of an MOD MPA fleet?
What makes you think that fishery patrol and environmental monitoring in UK waters using fixed wing aviation assets isn't currently still happening, despite the lack of an MOD MPA fleet?
Aircraft Type Total Role Operator
AgustaWestland AW 139 x3 Search & Rescue CHC
Britten-Norman BN-2A-26 Islander x1 Surveillance AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
Lockheed L-188 Electra x2 Pollution Spraying AAT
Sikorsky S-92 x4 Search & Rescue CHC
AAT = operated by Atlantic Air Transport Ltd under contract.
CHC = operated by CHC Scotia under contract.
Sun Who
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Britten-Norman BN-2A-26 Islander x1 Surveillance AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
Cessna 404 Titan II x1 Pollution Patrol AAT
Cessna F406 Caravan II x1/1 Pollution Patrol/Spraying AAT
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once it all goes quite I suspect we'll re-instate some sort of MPA capability - but it won't be anything like a Nimrod - a beefed up CN-235 probably
the emphasis will be fisheries patrol & environmental work and occasional search & rescue stuff - no need for all the other clutter
the emphasis will be fisheries patrol & environmental work and occasional search & rescue stuff - no need for all the other clutter
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Nutloose,
That link has driven my blood pressure sky high. The MoD is currently in the process of buying new sims for the A400M, which may well use exactly the same motion bases. The PT were offered the MRA4 kit from Kinloss but rejected it.
That link has driven my blood pressure sky high. The MoD is currently in the process of buying new sims for the A400M, which may well use exactly the same motion bases. The PT were offered the MRA4 kit from Kinloss but rejected it.
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I wasn't saying nothing was being done - as Sun Who has detailed we're using a rag bag mixture of kit - at least the old Air Atlantique DC-3's have gone west at last
What I mean is that the RAF will (eventually) get some MR assets again - I suspect that the Treasury will insist on something relatively small to try and minimise the scope for BAe "improvements"
What I mean is that the RAF will (eventually) get some MR assets again - I suspect that the Treasury will insist on something relatively small to try and minimise the scope for BAe "improvements"
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*
Nutloose,
That link has driven my blood pressure sky high. The MoD is currently in the process of buying new sims for the A400M, which may well use exactly the same motion bases. The PT were offered the MRA4 kit from Kinloss but rejected it.
Nutloose,
That link has driven my blood pressure sky high. The MoD is currently in the process of buying new sims for the A400M, which may well use exactly the same motion bases. The PT were offered the MRA4 kit from Kinloss but rejected it.
Edit the motion bases are sold separate, see
BidSpotter.co.uk - Inventory
Nice souvenier
BidSpotter.co.uk - CJM Asset Management
Last edited by NutLoose; 3rd Jun 2012 at 16:49.