Nimrod MRA.4
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manccowboy
Well if this was to happen in the very near future there would be a hell of a lot of **** flying in the governments direction and would be politically disastrous.
Navy to buy new aircraft.
In an article in the Sunday times about the Ark Royal, there is mention that the Admirals are furious about the cancellation of the Nimrod and are looking to buy and fly their own maritime reconnaissance aircraft because they consider the submarine threat to be very serious
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Yes already read that earlier, the mind boggles 
£1 Billion would have kept the MRA4 flying for 5 years, so after wasting over £4 billion we are now handing the Americans an additional £1 billion
plus god knows how much is servicing and training, this country really is run by fvckwits.
As someone has already said, you can't write scripts this good.
£1 Billion would have kept the MRA4 flying for 5 years, so after wasting over £4 billion we are now handing the Americans an additional £1 billion
plus god knows how much is servicing and training, this country really is run by fvckwits.As someone has already said, you can't write scripts this good.
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Unfortunately, as Nimrod didn't go into squadron service, there is no way to ever know how much more cash it would have cost to reach that point.
Personally I believe SFO when he suggests that the aircraft was pretty well ready - so the forecast that it'd cost 200 mill a year to operate etc seems fair to me. (Although it strikes me as odd - I don't recall seeing 'this will cost £X a year' being banded about for other aircraft - it makes me wonder if there's a deliberate policy to look on the black side...how much per year will Typhoon cost, for example...is that a common figure banded about in the papers?)
However, to a critic, the fact it didn't reach the sqns opens up the possibility that there's £X worth of further development and fixing needed before we get to that £200M a year point - and no hard and fast estimate of what that extra cost might be, over what timescale.
This allows lines to be drawn up - on one side, the SFO party (<g>) saying it's pretty well ready to go, in which case operating costs - in my view - don't come into the equation, I mean the kite needs fuel, servicing, crews etc but so does every aircraft in the inventory, on the other side is a group who can point to the idea that before we get to sqadron use the aircraft may be a bottomless pit we simply pour money into as it goes even longer past its supposed ISD.
Perhaps it would have been nice, in retrospect, if BWoS had said 'we guarantee we'll have these a/c on the front line for a total cost of £X' at some point. That way the critics couldn't make the 'bottomless pit' argument, which is - I think - the point that actually scuppered the program.
That the RN is now looking to reinvent the wheel is the stuff that 'the 2 Johns*' were so good at.
I think this argument is just going to keep cycling, as neither side will ever be able to prove their point. However, I enjoy a good argument, it keeps the grey matter turning over...
Dave
*(Bremner, Bird and Fortune)
Personally I believe SFO when he suggests that the aircraft was pretty well ready - so the forecast that it'd cost 200 mill a year to operate etc seems fair to me. (Although it strikes me as odd - I don't recall seeing 'this will cost £X a year' being banded about for other aircraft - it makes me wonder if there's a deliberate policy to look on the black side...how much per year will Typhoon cost, for example...is that a common figure banded about in the papers?)
However, to a critic, the fact it didn't reach the sqns opens up the possibility that there's £X worth of further development and fixing needed before we get to that £200M a year point - and no hard and fast estimate of what that extra cost might be, over what timescale.
This allows lines to be drawn up - on one side, the SFO party (<g>) saying it's pretty well ready to go, in which case operating costs - in my view - don't come into the equation, I mean the kite needs fuel, servicing, crews etc but so does every aircraft in the inventory, on the other side is a group who can point to the idea that before we get to sqadron use the aircraft may be a bottomless pit we simply pour money into as it goes even longer past its supposed ISD.
Perhaps it would have been nice, in retrospect, if BWoS had said 'we guarantee we'll have these a/c on the front line for a total cost of £X' at some point. That way the critics couldn't make the 'bottomless pit' argument, which is - I think - the point that actually scuppered the program.
That the RN is now looking to reinvent the wheel is the stuff that 'the 2 Johns*' were so good at.
I think this argument is just going to keep cycling, as neither side will ever be able to prove their point. However, I enjoy a good argument, it keeps the grey matter turning over...
Dave
*(Bremner, Bird and Fortune)
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I'm surprised that the conspiracy theorists haven't picked up on this article.
Could it have been a bit of behind the scenes action from the Navy to seal the Nimrod's fate.
Could it have been a bit of behind the scenes action from the Navy to seal the Nimrod's fate.
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Nah,
that's an even more crackpot idea than most - even the RN, were they determined to do the RAF down, would not pull the rug from under their own feet with no possibility of producing an RN replacement in the immediate future.
If the RN were given a big pot of gold right now, today, and the go ahead to do what they wanted, then it'd still take them a considerable time to embark an ASW fixed wing asset with all the skills needed to actually do the job. Should the RN think differently, then boy oh boy have they got a surprise coming.
You can make a conspiracy theory about just about anything (notice how Col Ghadaffi and Bruce Forsyth are never on TV at the same time?) but to produce one with legs there has to be some semblance of reality to it at some point. 'RN torpedoes Nimrod because they secretly want into the MPA game' doesn't ring true.
I would suggest that the powers that be in the RN aren't actually bothered about aircraft at all - but they DO want big boats, and since about 1942 the big boat that gives admirals bragging rights is the attack carrier. The RN hierarchy want carriers - no doubt about it - but that doesn't mean they necessarily give a stuff about having aircraft for anything beyond decorative purposes.
Dave
that's an even more crackpot idea than most - even the RN, were they determined to do the RAF down, would not pull the rug from under their own feet with no possibility of producing an RN replacement in the immediate future.
If the RN were given a big pot of gold right now, today, and the go ahead to do what they wanted, then it'd still take them a considerable time to embark an ASW fixed wing asset with all the skills needed to actually do the job. Should the RN think differently, then boy oh boy have they got a surprise coming.
You can make a conspiracy theory about just about anything (notice how Col Ghadaffi and Bruce Forsyth are never on TV at the same time?) but to produce one with legs there has to be some semblance of reality to it at some point. 'RN torpedoes Nimrod because they secretly want into the MPA game' doesn't ring true.
I would suggest that the powers that be in the RN aren't actually bothered about aircraft at all - but they DO want big boats, and since about 1942 the big boat that gives admirals bragging rights is the attack carrier. The RN hierarchy want carriers - no doubt about it - but that doesn't mean they necessarily give a stuff about having aircraft for anything beyond decorative purposes.
Dave
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SFO - may I too add belated thanks for your earlier posts. Those associated with the project are aware of the true facts, but understandably hesitate to speak out at a time so close to redundancy. Maybe after then, with their final pay-off safely in the bank, more will speak out and we will not have to continue reading the one-sided twisted and distorted stories which have been spoon-fed to the newspapers by politicians and their servants.
Though speaking the Truth is admirable, it will not bring the MRA.4 back - we are well past PNR.
Photos - PA5 moving to scrap area at Woodford on Monday.
Photos - a small number of a hardly visible PA4 being demolished at Warton last Wednesday.
Though speaking the Truth is admirable, it will not bring the MRA.4 back - we are well past PNR.
Photos - PA5 moving to scrap area at Woodford on Monday.
Photos - a small number of a hardly visible PA4 being demolished at Warton last Wednesday.
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Need we say more.....?
RUSI - Mind the Gap: Strategic Risk in the UK’s Anti-Submarine Warfare Capability
RUSI - Mind the Gap: Strategic Risk in the UK’s Anti-Submarine Warfare Capability
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Why would they need to? They can operate perfectly well in their own back yard and have a major effect on the UK. The vast majority of the oil we use transits through Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman on super-tankers.
We need to be able to protect UK British people AND interests world-wide, and to do tat the military needs to be adequately financed and equipped.
MadMark!!!
We need to be able to protect UK British people AND interests world-wide, and to do tat the military needs to be adequately financed and equipped.
MadMark!!!
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Nimrod AEW
Need help. The Nimrod AEW thread is closed. Writing book Nimrod Rise and Fall and need to talk to AEW and early AWACS operators if there are any left! Don't believe the whole story is as written down.
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SFO
I jumped ship a year ago, so my comments aren't really vallied, but I
all of your comments
I only spent 4 years on the project, and while it may be dead and buried, it is still a travisty that may well bite the UK in the ar** in the not to far distant future.
I jumped ship a year ago, so my comments aren't really vallied, but I
all of your commentsI only spent 4 years on the project, and while it may be dead and buried, it is still a travisty that may well bite the UK in the ar** in the not to far distant future.
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Green Flash wrote;
I think their Kilo's might be a bit long in the tooth, do they have other types?
I think their Kilo's might be a bit long in the tooth, do they have other types?
The Kilos prime advantage is that below a certain speed they are incredibly quiet and difficult to track, particularly if they use water layers to avoid detection.
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The Kilos prime advantage is that below a certain speed they are incredibly quiet and difficult to track, particularly if they use water layers to avoid detection.
Any Iranian sub threat would be most effective in turning off the oil tap via the Straits of Hormuz or making mischief landing SF somewhere. Don't think the English channel would be high on their list of priorities.
The Iranian Kios don't have to go very far at all to be a concern. If one sails & then sits on the bottom somewhere for a short while, snorting as & when, the USN gets very jumpy in and around the Straits.
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Confused
The Labour party seemed to have had a pretty loose grip on the project tiller. The MRA4 should have at least been operational a couple of years ago ?
£4.7 Billion spent, another 200 to scrap them. Tell Cameron and Osbourne that I know a nice drain where they can pour OUR money !
It defies any sort of logic. Common sense has been given up long ago.
Beware beancounters running the ship !
Some office clerk was whimpering that the electronics were out of date !
The thing with electronics is that in general, they get smaller. Has any body noticed what a modern smartphone can do ? I have an HTC Desire, the only thing it has trouble with is making a cup of tea, but give it time.
The Nimrod had a study, rugged airframe, even though an old design it had bomb doors. Very useful for dropping sonar bhoys and torpedoes.
It could also loiter on two engines.
The dangers and threats have multiplied. Pirates, North Africa, China Sea etc etc. Then there is still, the South Atlantic.
What do the beancounters do ?
Cancel the project.
They will regret that and the cancellation of the Ark Royal and Harriers.
Anyway, I was in this wine bar in the City of London a couple of years ago. Sitting behind me were two 'suits' gobbing off about their PR companies. What an empty bread-headed couple of awful noveau-yuppies they were. I turned and told them to shut it !
I think their names were Dave and George, or something like that.
£4.7 Billion spent, another 200 to scrap them. Tell Cameron and Osbourne that I know a nice drain where they can pour OUR money !
It defies any sort of logic. Common sense has been given up long ago.
Beware beancounters running the ship !
Some office clerk was whimpering that the electronics were out of date !
The thing with electronics is that in general, they get smaller. Has any body noticed what a modern smartphone can do ? I have an HTC Desire, the only thing it has trouble with is making a cup of tea, but give it time.
The Nimrod had a study, rugged airframe, even though an old design it had bomb doors. Very useful for dropping sonar bhoys and torpedoes.
It could also loiter on two engines.
The dangers and threats have multiplied. Pirates, North Africa, China Sea etc etc. Then there is still, the South Atlantic.
What do the beancounters do ?
Cancel the project.
They will regret that and the cancellation of the Ark Royal and Harriers.
Anyway, I was in this wine bar in the City of London a couple of years ago. Sitting behind me were two 'suits' gobbing off about their PR companies. What an empty bread-headed couple of awful noveau-yuppies they were. I turned and told them to shut it !
I think their names were Dave and George, or something like that.
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The Long Walk
In marked contrast to previous days, Monday March 14th started off with a thin layer of overnight frost, quickly melting as temperatures rapidly increased to give a pleasant coats-off day with little wind. Ideal for golf and whippet walking - no flat cap required.
First out was PA2, with the support team in escort attendance, walking the now gutted airframe to the scrapping compound.
At 1300 it was PA1's turn - Photos Here - taking a routing along the aerodrome's western boundary where former employees and associates stood in silence and disbelief at this, the finale of what they had been observing these past weeks, namely the destruction and eradication of the Nimrod MRA4.
It was one thing seeing the aircraft under tow, but it was a totally different experience, not obvious from sound-less pictures on a web site, to feel the ground shake beneath one's feet and to hear the metal screaming, as each bite of the machinery laid waste to a hapless victim.
First out was PA2, with the support team in escort attendance, walking the now gutted airframe to the scrapping compound.
At 1300 it was PA1's turn - Photos Here - taking a routing along the aerodrome's western boundary where former employees and associates stood in silence and disbelief at this, the finale of what they had been observing these past weeks, namely the destruction and eradication of the Nimrod MRA4.
It was one thing seeing the aircraft under tow, but it was a totally different experience, not obvious from sound-less pictures on a web site, to feel the ground shake beneath one's feet and to hear the metal screaming, as each bite of the machinery laid waste to a hapless victim.
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I'd personally like to wring Camerons & Foxes neck at their total indifference to the money wasted and the many 1000s of people this little episode has put on the dole.