Nimrod MRA.4
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Hello1,
Totally agree with you and the decision making process on MRA4; wrong at every step, however it kept BWoS in business for 15 years.
My hope for the future is that in 4-5 years time the UK government has enough money to buy some P8's for the UK. I am not a great fan of the P8 but it is the only option now; the UK should have gone for the P7 when the US were looking for a replacement MPA back in the mid-90's.
Probably not worth JJ resigning as that will have no impact with the government at all, however I hope he supports all the guys and girls at KSS as a priority. Knew him for a while on 201. Not surprised he made it to Staish level as even then he was blantant in career aspirations.
Y_G
Totally agree with you and the decision making process on MRA4; wrong at every step, however it kept BWoS in business for 15 years.
My hope for the future is that in 4-5 years time the UK government has enough money to buy some P8's for the UK. I am not a great fan of the P8 but it is the only option now; the UK should have gone for the P7 when the US were looking for a replacement MPA back in the mid-90's.
Probably not worth JJ resigning as that will have no impact with the government at all, however I hope he supports all the guys and girls at KSS as a priority. Knew him for a while on 201. Not surprised he made it to Staish level as even then he was blantant in career aspirations.
Y_G
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Bravo Sir Mark.
Has the 'First Air Lord,' or any other serving Air Marshal made any similar public statement?
(Genuine question, as I am out in the sticks.)
Has the 'First Air Lord,' or any other serving Air Marshal made any similar public statement?
(Genuine question, as I am out in the sticks.)
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Mods:
My post #1342 was made some 40 minutes after #1344 by Bannock, and refers to it, but somehow mine has jumped in front.
It has just happened again!
My post #1342 was made some 40 minutes after #1344 by Bannock, and refers to it, but somehow mine has jumped in front.
It has just happened again!
Join Date: Jul 2006
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From Todays Telegraph.
Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, the First Sea Lord, said he was “very uncomfortable” about the decision to scrap planned Nimrod aircraft.
His remarks were the first public criticism of Coalition defence cuts from a serving defence chief.
The Strategic Defence and Security Review last month confirmed that the £3.6 billion order for new Nimrod MRa4 maritime patrol aircraft.
Nimrods, which fly from RAF Kinloss in Scotland, are equipped with long-range surveillance equipment for eavesdropping on communications and detecting movement.
The aircraft can provide vital support for Vanguard submarines carrying Trident nuclear missiles, by detecting Russian hunter-killer subs trying to follow them.
Without the Nimrods, Britain is likely to ask the US and France to provide such anti-submarine warfare capabilities in future
“I am very uncomfortable at losing Nimrod. I am happy to say that publicly,” Adml Stanhope told a defence industry conference in London.
Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, the First Sea Lord, said he was “very uncomfortable” about the decision to scrap planned Nimrod aircraft.
His remarks were the first public criticism of Coalition defence cuts from a serving defence chief.
The Strategic Defence and Security Review last month confirmed that the £3.6 billion order for new Nimrod MRa4 maritime patrol aircraft.
Nimrods, which fly from RAF Kinloss in Scotland, are equipped with long-range surveillance equipment for eavesdropping on communications and detecting movement.
The aircraft can provide vital support for Vanguard submarines carrying Trident nuclear missiles, by detecting Russian hunter-killer subs trying to follow them.
Without the Nimrods, Britain is likely to ask the US and France to provide such anti-submarine warfare capabilities in future
“I am very uncomfortable at losing Nimrod. I am happy to say that publicly,” Adml Stanhope told a defence industry conference in London.
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People can say as much as they like it won't change the price of fish, the MRA4 is going to be turned into coke cans, did these Admirals fight for it before the decision was made????
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I guess they did, given that even the Defence Secretary was "publicly" questioning the decision (via a leaked memo...) and fighting in the Nimrods corner!
So those with the purse strings in 10 and 11 Downing St clearly took the expert advice, and went against it, knowing full well that in the public eye Nimrod = XV230 accident and subsequent fall-out, and nobody (press or public) will question the fact that £3.5Bn isn't actually being saved by scrapping it, cos its already been spent, and we're actually just throwing this money away!
So those with the purse strings in 10 and 11 Downing St clearly took the expert advice, and went against it, knowing full well that in the public eye Nimrod = XV230 accident and subsequent fall-out, and nobody (press or public) will question the fact that £3.5Bn isn't actually being saved by scrapping it, cos its already been spent, and we're actually just throwing this money away!
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All of which confirms that there was little strategy in this SDR which is was an excercise in cost cutting.
The never ending leaks of "information" to the media in the build up to the Review being published was an insult to Parliament and the public but most of all, to the service men and women who, along with their families have or will be affected.
The never ending leaks of "information" to the media in the build up to the Review being published was an insult to Parliament and the public but most of all, to the service men and women who, along with their families have or will be affected.
Join Date: May 2007
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P7 that never was
Y-G
In fact the MOD did in fact go for the P7 in the mid 80's. At that point the Nimrod MR2 mid-life update was considered too expensive so the P7 all in one package, so beloved of MOD PE, was chosen. MOD said no more would be spent on the Nimrod, which is why it was always struggling for funds.
Then the US Navy did the dirty and cancelled the P7 as it did not meet the promised performance spec. The update 4 electronic suit was continued to be added to P3's, but that was also cancelled when it failed to meet its spec.
Having to go back to the drawing board, MOD PE resurrected the same ASR for what became Nimrod 2000 with a few tweaks, which is why to some it was appeared out of date.
Interestingly, I believe the MRA4 tactical suite was not a million miles away from update 4, (Both built by Boeing), however, now it had a processor up to the task.
In fact the MOD did in fact go for the P7 in the mid 80's. At that point the Nimrod MR2 mid-life update was considered too expensive so the P7 all in one package, so beloved of MOD PE, was chosen. MOD said no more would be spent on the Nimrod, which is why it was always struggling for funds.
Then the US Navy did the dirty and cancelled the P7 as it did not meet the promised performance spec. The update 4 electronic suit was continued to be added to P3's, but that was also cancelled when it failed to meet its spec.
Having to go back to the drawing board, MOD PE resurrected the same ASR for what became Nimrod 2000 with a few tweaks, which is why to some it was appeared out of date.
Interestingly, I believe the MRA4 tactical suite was not a million miles away from update 4, (Both built by Boeing), however, now it had a processor up to the task.
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The AOC was in town today.
He was honest and pulled no punches. For having the balls to come up and take the chest poking and deal with an emotional fleet deserves respect.
Good Guy.
P.S VAS is busy again.
He was honest and pulled no punches. For having the balls to come up and take the chest poking and deal with an emotional fleet deserves respect.
Good Guy.
P.S VAS is busy again.
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Not sure but RXXy got the most in and is deserving of the award for the most outrageous Ginger Tash in the history of the service.
Last edited by Bannock; 11th Nov 2010 at 16:10.
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crapping of Nimrod spy planes had "collectively blown an enormous hole in national ma
Marshall of the RAF Lord Craig of Radley, who was chief of the defence staff from 1988 to 1991, attacked the "savage savings" in the defence review. He said cutting the number of frigates and destroyers to 19 and the scrapping of Nimrod spy planes had "collectively blown an enormous hole in national maritime capability".
BBC News - Defence cuts are an enormous gamble, says Lord Boyce
BBC News - Defence cuts are an enormous gamble, says Lord Boyce
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I'm an old cynic,
but to me this is a bunch of has beens standing up in the house of Lords to criticise the government long after their own backsides have been rendered fireproof. No doubt there'll be hundreds of posts now to correct me, but I can't actually recall a serving top rank standing up and saying goverment policy is dead wrong... the current silence is deafening, but far from unusual.
As for
Maybe I misread this, but it sounds like the folk who are criticising the SDSR as being a cost cutting exercise (rather than a genuine defence review centred on military capability) are trying to say we should keep Harrier rather than Tornado on cost grounds... which is surely what they themselves are criticising the government for? I think maybe the BBC hasn't quite grasped the argument here...
This is ALL about money and nothing to do with defence, and arguing about which FJ to keep is deckchair arranging on the Titanic - as a nation we have to decide if we want to operate a defence force or armed forces capable of offensive ops (such as we actually always seem to be doing post WW2) and having decided that we need to dedicate the appropriate percentage of GDP to it - we are still running offensive ops ion a peacetime budget. We then need to kick seven bells out of the politicians who insist on paying for defence, but gung hoing into offense.
How this is I don't understand, we've been doing things on a shoestring since the RN was a bunch of privateers with letters of marque, you'd think that somebody would have cottoned on to the idea that this wasn't the best way to do things sometime in the past 500 years or so.
Dave
but to me this is a bunch of has beens standing up in the house of Lords to criticise the government long after their own backsides have been rendered fireproof. No doubt there'll be hundreds of posts now to correct me, but I can't actually recall a serving top rank standing up and saying goverment policy is dead wrong... the current silence is deafening, but far from unusual.
As for
"It's now time to publish the MoD advice and full costs of terminating the Harrier fleet and suspend the decision until we have had a proper debate."
But in an interview earlier this week, Lib Dem minister Nick Harvey appeared to suggest that the government would save more by scrapping Tornados.
But in an interview earlier this week, Lib Dem minister Nick Harvey appeared to suggest that the government would save more by scrapping Tornados.
This is ALL about money and nothing to do with defence, and arguing about which FJ to keep is deckchair arranging on the Titanic - as a nation we have to decide if we want to operate a defence force or armed forces capable of offensive ops (such as we actually always seem to be doing post WW2) and having decided that we need to dedicate the appropriate percentage of GDP to it - we are still running offensive ops ion a peacetime budget. We then need to kick seven bells out of the politicians who insist on paying for defence, but gung hoing into offense.
How this is I don't understand, we've been doing things on a shoestring since the RN was a bunch of privateers with letters of marque, you'd think that somebody would have cottoned on to the idea that this wasn't the best way to do things sometime in the past 500 years or so.
Dave
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"Anyone Know what's happening at Woodford?"
Hard to say - but I now work for a company that uses the Oxford sim facility on the airfield there - and we have had a memo asking us not to get upset if we are stopped and searched on exit. This apparently due to the items of kit that have already been "liberated" from the factory complex following the MRA4 cancellation.
Hard to say - but I now work for a company that uses the Oxford sim facility on the airfield there - and we have had a memo asking us not to get upset if we are stopped and searched on exit. This apparently due to the items of kit that have already been "liberated" from the factory complex following the MRA4 cancellation.
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Amazing how all the people are now coming out with how we tried to save things, AVMs and the top of the RAF food chain,They have saved there little star projects but the unlucky few have taken the full hit. I hope they sleep well in the future as in truth the whole RAF has been hurt by this and all respect for command has gone in the engineering world. TG1 the rock that stands behind the people that fly , we are getting murdered and as an engineer I feel so let down along with hundreds others that are being told to pack bags very soon.
Sad end , MR2 was the lowest point and now this. Cheers Bastards
Sad end , MR2 was the lowest point and now this. Cheers Bastards
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Last week Nick Harvey stated that more money would be saved by chopping Harrier but this week Lord Astor stated that chopping Tornado would save "three times more more as "proof that the Government decision was based on military advice". Total confusion hence a request for figures to confirm the actual position which will of course change nothing!
Add to this that the Government also stated we had a Squadron of Tornado jets in the Falklands and you have some idea why the former Chief's have been more than a little vocal in the House of Lords
Add to this that the Government also stated we had a Squadron of Tornado jets in the Falklands and you have some idea why the former Chief's have been more than a little vocal in the House of Lords