Nimrod MRA.4

[airpolice]

Could it be?

Here's a thought, wild and out of nowhere....

Maybe, just maybe..... The PM did cancel it, maybe he knows something that you guys don't know, and maybe in the light of that info...... cancelling is better than using the MRA4

Maybe Big Jock knew (there's a hint to which foot I kick with) and wanted the "problems" fixed and the a/c into service but was ordered to STFU and then swiftly removed from office.

It's all possible.

Just because nobody has the balls to say it is unsafe / never going to work out / not what we need, is no guarantee that nobody thinks it.

[Strato Q]

The Nimrod Insanity

An interesting article on the Think Defence website in to the insanity of cancelling the MRA4:

The Nimrod Insanity | Think Defence

Also, an article on key.aero about the MRA4 decision with more detail from the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology, Peter Luff on why the decision was taken:

Nimrod axed because of ‘future costs’: key.Aero, Military Aviation

Since the withdrawal of the Nimrod MR2 in March this year, the Ministry of Defence has sought to mitigate the gap in capability through the use of other military assets, including Type 23 Frigates, Merlin Anti Submarine Warfare helicopters and Hercules C-130 aircraft, and by relying, where appropriate, on assistance from allies and partners. Although it was originally assumed that such measures would only be required for a limited period of time, we are now developing a longer-term plan to mitigate the impact of cancellation on our continuing military tasks and capabilities.

Do you think the enormity of their insane decision is dawning on them?

[davejb]

And maybe, just maybe,

Maybe, just maybe..... The PM did cancel it, maybe he knows something that you guys don't know, and maybe in the light of that info...... cancelling is better than using the MRA4

...like every other politician before him, and I imagine every one after him, he has as much knowledge on the subject as a garden gnome, and cancelled it for a bunch of reasons that even my pet dog would consider unfathomable. After all the current (about to become non-current) head serviceman says he told him it was a really dumb idea, and I tend to think that he probably has a clue about defence. Perhaps you might like to consider which of the two probably knows more about defence, before making fatuous comments?

Good for you for believing in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, I hope your faith is rewarded.

Dave

[D O Guerrero]

Did I read that correctly? We're keeping the Red Arrows, but scrapping MRA4?

[ShortFatOne]

Strategic Defence Spending Review confirmed

So there you have it, official, MRA4 binned because it was more important to save £200 mil a year. Of course, he has admitted that it won't be a saving of £200mil a year because it didn't include the cancellation and disposal costs (still being worked out) and it certainly doesn't include the additional costs of the capability replacement he appears to be alluding to. So I'm guessing the final bill is likely to exceed that which would have been incured by taking the aircraft into service. I'm so glad this lot aren't in charge of my household finances.

[tucumseh]

If MRA4 was cancelled to save £200M a year, that implies CDS, CAS, Cameron and others (with Dr Fox seemingly an honourable exception) didn't want to make difficult decisions, as they claim, but took an easy option.

The difficult, and correct, decision woud be to target the reason why MoD wastes vast sums of money, is routinely castigated for doing so, yet steadfastly refuses to do anything about it.

But that would mean implementing existing regulations. Now, there's an idea.

[grousehunter]

Taking a step back

I think that initially after the project had been canceled, I was in shock. However; you have to split the project problems from the capability need.

If you take a step back and look at the last 10 years and what has actually happened within the MRA4 project then it was on reflection probably time to stop. Thats damn difficult for me to say given the implications, but in my opinion we still need the capability that the aircraft would have provided, even Tourist would agree with that to some extent I am sure.

How much more money should we pour into BAE to fix aircraft problems? In early 2000 or 2001 BAE used Nimrod and Astute as examples of how NOT to run projects within the company. Indeed I think they nearly went bust because of them. The design review process (already proven in other areas of the business, but not implemented fully within MAS) was taken on board. But still multiple problems existed within the airframe and mission systems. In recent years limited mission system testing was undertaken because the company wanted to iron out the airframe problems, but that would have left us (the customer) with an airframe but a flaky mission system. I would be very interested in years to come to hear from the Chief Engineer who chaired the design review boards, to understand his (or her) thoughts. Because the buck ultimately stopped with them on whether certain areas of the project were progressed or not (from an engineering point of view).

I also think, again stepping back, that those at Kinloss never really embraced MRA4 until it was too late. From my limited and specialized input into the project the silence was often deafening from Kinloss. Interest levels were zero. BAE would deliver eventually. Obviously this increased in the the last year or so but by then it was too late. But I also understand how BAE made everyone feel like they were banging their heads against a wall all the time.

If you looked at the mission system could anyone at Kinloss or BAE really tell you how Data Fusion was going to work? Did Kinloss ever get a grip of the amount of data that the aircraft was going to produce? Was there a team dedicated (like on the E3 and on Nimrod R1) to deal with this? Nope. No interest.

I could go on, but its getting tiresome. The decision to scrap has not been backed up by reason at higher level convincingly, but I do sadly have some appreciation of why perhaps in the end it was right to call time.

[getsometimein]

Up until late '08, Kinloss had no capacity as it was being deployed all the time...

I think you'll find that the contract was for BAE to provide all the initial training and work, not Kinloss staff... If you look at the amount of work that went into correcting the crap coursework that BAE provided then i'm sure you'd change your view...

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by grousehunter

I also think, again stepping back, that those at Kinloss never really embraced MRA4 until it was too late. From my limited and specialized input into the project the silence was often deafening from Kinloss. Interest levels were zero.

An interesting take on the issue. Back in the 70s one of the sqn cdrs who rose to become Air Marshal or ACM, opined that the Nimrod was the wrong airframe - the floor was too high.

With the Mk 3 there was no real enthusiasm there either and as problems beset problems what little there had been evaporated. OTOH the E3 was bought and delivered in to service in short order.

The Mk 4 will have seen 4 or 5 senior officers in every post come and go in the last 10 years - who wants to hang his coat on a project that just drifts through from start to finish of his tour with no end in sight.

Yes, we can appreciate why it was probably just pass the parcel (or kiss of death) in the corridors of power.

[grousehunter]

I 100% agree (with getsometimein), it was not just the training notes. And I also understand our deployments, having just come from one before moving onto MRA4.

But did that really involve everyone? Could we not have moved more personnel over to MRA4 earlier, not to start course B/C whatever, but mission specialists? Certainly when MR2 went out of service we had MORE than enough people to do this. But it did not happen. Indeed certain WSOP leaders poached key personnel back to their squadrons, again not fully understanding (nor ever asking) how important these guys were. But I digress that is a topic for another time. Probably in the bar!

[Sideshow Bob]

MRA4 is/was an MPA... It couldn't do overland 'out of the box'...

That's not what was touted when it was first plugged to the Airforce. It was supposed to come into service all singing, all dancing and with sheds more capability (Comms, camara ect). So what happened?

(Must admit I have taken little interest in the project since I left Maritime).

[getsometimein]

That's not what was touted when it was first plugged to the Airforce. It was supposed to come into service all singing, all dancing and with sheds more capability (Comms, camara ect). So what happened?

It did, by the spec laid down initially....

But the equipment was never brought up to modern standards. The MR2 was more capable in some areas because it had been repeatedly upgraded. You need to compare Y2K MR2 vs the MRA4 to get a good comparison.

[Sideshow Bob]

It was supposed to, at least, have the kit we carried into Iraq under the UOR in 2003. Was this not the case?

[grousehunter]

Fellas - not defending BAE here but if the spec in 2000 was x, and it was contracted and paid for, why should it be delivered with x+y+z in 2010? I mean did Tornado arrive with a Raptor pod on it? No, because that technology did not exist at that time, nor was a need seen for it. Its called procurement creep, and something the military continue to mis-understand.

If the aircraft had been brought into service on time it would by now have had all the UORs for MR2 and probably more as it is a far more capable platform to integrate. Thats the problem

MR2 only took on the overland role because we did not have another platform to perform that task. We do now. At the end of the day we used a maritime patrol aircraft to put a camera on, some comms relay kit and thats about it. We all know what we should have done - laser designator, paveway in the bomb bay, sigint kit etc etc. But the fast jet mafia thought otherwise.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Nimrod aircraft 'could become scrap metal'

BBC News - Nimrod aircraft 'could become scrap metal'



Duncs

[F3sRBest]

Union scaremongering.....

[Neptunus Rex]

I bet the cousins at Pax River would like to get their hands on one or two.

[The B Word]

[JFZ90]

.........too soon

[Willard Whyte]

Given Nimrod's 'reputation' I'd be afeared of getting food poisoning.