Nimrod MRA.4
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I was once on a cruise ship having a tour of the bridge where it was explained that all ships (over 300 tons I think) are required by law to have a gps system linked to the SARSAT system. If they press the panic button then all ships within a certain range are alerted by the system to the SOS position and are required by maritime law to assist. Which is why in todays case, the container ship was on scene so quickly.
For those that don't know, todays conditions looked rather benign, that the life rafts were tied alongside the vessel on fire, meant that rescue was not too difficult. As Davejb explains, visibility from the bridge of a ship is limited as best when looking for small craft like life rafts, it is extremely difficult to spot them in anything other than flat calm conditions. Even from the air they are very small and easy to miss, if the sea is rough as it normally is on these occasions, the rafts will drift apart unless they are tied together, and that is a skill that needs to be briefed and practised to be efficient. In these conditions the only asset that will effect an efficient search service has to be airborne.
As has been quoted, the Nimrod could do all of this as well as its many other tasks, the crews were trained to do so. Today has had a fortunate outcome, it should be a wake-up call, but I fear not.
For those that don't know, todays conditions looked rather benign, that the life rafts were tied alongside the vessel on fire, meant that rescue was not too difficult. As Davejb explains, visibility from the bridge of a ship is limited as best when looking for small craft like life rafts, it is extremely difficult to spot them in anything other than flat calm conditions. Even from the air they are very small and easy to miss, if the sea is rough as it normally is on these occasions, the rafts will drift apart unless they are tied together, and that is a skill that needs to be briefed and practised to be efficient. In these conditions the only asset that will effect an efficient search service has to be airborne.
As has been quoted, the Nimrod could do all of this as well as its many other tasks, the crews were trained to do so. Today has had a fortunate outcome, it should be a wake-up call, but I fear not.
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Tourist, you are wrong.
Ask Tony Bullimore or Thierry Dubouis. They would both be dead without the capabilities of Long range Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Thierry probably only had hours to live in his immersion suit before a liferaft was dropped to him from an Orion the in ugly Southern Ocean seas. Bullimore would have perished 3000 miles from civilisation if an Orion had not found his upturned yacht and given some hope to the sea borne rescuers who got there days later, the same rescuers that picked Dubois out of his dinghy. They wouldn't even have continued the mission if the MPA hadn't been there and found the survivors within hours of the alarm being sounded over 5000 miles from their base.
Ask the German ferry pilot who, struck by lightning at night mid Atlantic lost his nav aids. A Nimrod launched, found him and talked him into Shannon (the BBC did a 999 documentary on that one). Werner Soelman knows why he is still alive and he still thanks the crew every year- no one else could have done what they did that night, no one else was available.
The many SAR trails that were carried out never to my knowledge resulted in having to rescue a Hawk/Tornado/Jaguar/Harrier mate but the top cover was there.
Who takes over SAR cover for the Royal Family? How can we expect our colonial cousins to come out and escort them when we can't even do it ourselves?
It's NOT just SAR though, it's the capability to reach out and touch whatever is happening on or more importantly under. the oceans at long range off a maritime nation's coast quickly and efficiently that's the issue and it's a capability that's gone. Say what you will but I think it's gone because there are not enough figures at the top who TRULY understand what we have given away and how difficult it would be to get it back. The naievety of some of the posts on this thread goes some way to illustrate that, the problem is that the true spectrum of what the LRPMA has done for us in defence of our nation cannot be spoken about here.
Party Animal. A half decent post back there if a bit wordy. You ruined it for me with your schoolboy attack on AEOs. What's up, did one of the ones who was worth his weight in gold tell you the truth? Or have you got a chip on your shoulder as big as your ego? What are you, old Knocker or passed over pilot?
Leave it out will you? There was a time when we had a bit of unity in the crews and on the squadrons, why don't we keep it that way and not take cheap shots at our own in a public forum? You besmirch the memory of many a highly professional guy who has to put up with being tarred with the same brush as one or two notably lesser beings.
When it boils down to it ask yourself why every other major and many minor military powers maintain a fleet of MPA?
Now then, when do we sign up for the P8, maybe we could fit an extra seat in it with a nice window and a plasma screen dimmer switch.......................two engines not as good as four but better than none.
Ask Tony Bullimore or Thierry Dubouis. They would both be dead without the capabilities of Long range Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Thierry probably only had hours to live in his immersion suit before a liferaft was dropped to him from an Orion the in ugly Southern Ocean seas. Bullimore would have perished 3000 miles from civilisation if an Orion had not found his upturned yacht and given some hope to the sea borne rescuers who got there days later, the same rescuers that picked Dubois out of his dinghy. They wouldn't even have continued the mission if the MPA hadn't been there and found the survivors within hours of the alarm being sounded over 5000 miles from their base.
Ask the German ferry pilot who, struck by lightning at night mid Atlantic lost his nav aids. A Nimrod launched, found him and talked him into Shannon (the BBC did a 999 documentary on that one). Werner Soelman knows why he is still alive and he still thanks the crew every year- no one else could have done what they did that night, no one else was available.
The many SAR trails that were carried out never to my knowledge resulted in having to rescue a Hawk/Tornado/Jaguar/Harrier mate but the top cover was there.
Who takes over SAR cover for the Royal Family? How can we expect our colonial cousins to come out and escort them when we can't even do it ourselves?
It's NOT just SAR though, it's the capability to reach out and touch whatever is happening on or more importantly under. the oceans at long range off a maritime nation's coast quickly and efficiently that's the issue and it's a capability that's gone. Say what you will but I think it's gone because there are not enough figures at the top who TRULY understand what we have given away and how difficult it would be to get it back. The naievety of some of the posts on this thread goes some way to illustrate that, the problem is that the true spectrum of what the LRPMA has done for us in defence of our nation cannot be spoken about here.
Party Animal. A half decent post back there if a bit wordy. You ruined it for me with your schoolboy attack on AEOs. What's up, did one of the ones who was worth his weight in gold tell you the truth? Or have you got a chip on your shoulder as big as your ego? What are you, old Knocker or passed over pilot?
Leave it out will you? There was a time when we had a bit of unity in the crews and on the squadrons, why don't we keep it that way and not take cheap shots at our own in a public forum? You besmirch the memory of many a highly professional guy who has to put up with being tarred with the same brush as one or two notably lesser beings.
When it boils down to it ask yourself why every other major and many minor military powers maintain a fleet of MPA?
Now then, when do we sign up for the P8, maybe we could fit an extra seat in it with a nice window and a plasma screen dimmer switch.......................two engines not as good as four but better than none.
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I have been reading this thread for the last week with a mixture of shock and sadness. We all know how short-sighted and crazy this decision is. What the politicians don't realise is that once this capability is shut down it will take decades to bring back.
As an ex-P3 driver in the RAAF I flew with and trained many RAF exchange officers. To a man, the pilots, navigators and sensor operators from the RAF were all top notch professionals who contributed immense corporate knowledge in their tours at 92WG. Many have taken Aust. citizenship and stayed permanently.
My feeling is that the RAAF would love to take as many of these ex-Nimrod crew as possible, but unfortunately the RAAF is full at the moment and the requirement for laterals is almost zero. I also know that as the P3 retires and the P8 comes on line, there will be an increasing requirment for sensor operators. It may be worth making some enquiries to the RAAF.
As an ex-P3 driver in the RAAF I flew with and trained many RAF exchange officers. To a man, the pilots, navigators and sensor operators from the RAF were all top notch professionals who contributed immense corporate knowledge in their tours at 92WG. Many have taken Aust. citizenship and stayed permanently.
My feeling is that the RAAF would love to take as many of these ex-Nimrod crew as possible, but unfortunately the RAAF is full at the moment and the requirement for laterals is almost zero. I also know that as the P3 retires and the P8 comes on line, there will be an increasing requirment for sensor operators. It may be worth making some enquiries to the RAAF.
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I feel that all of the talk about the recent long range SAR incident is a red herring. Nimrod's previously important role in this sort of op has been superceded by technology.
Finding the ship - You can do this with an IPhone! The Ship Finder app gives you world wide ship positions, showing ship id, track, speed, even cargo. You could even coordinate the surface rescue with it, tracking and vectoring ships in the area.
Radio relay - Practically every ship has satellite phones, interent access and, in extremis, HF comms.
No, this is no longer a task for a MPA. The Nimrod had to stand or fall on its primary military task, finding, tracking and, potentially, destroying submarines. The government decided that, at the moment, it had better things to do with its money.
Finding the ship - You can do this with an IPhone! The Ship Finder app gives you world wide ship positions, showing ship id, track, speed, even cargo. You could even coordinate the surface rescue with it, tracking and vectoring ships in the area.
Radio relay - Practically every ship has satellite phones, interent access and, in extremis, HF comms.
No, this is no longer a task for a MPA. The Nimrod had to stand or fall on its primary military task, finding, tracking and, potentially, destroying submarines. The government decided that, at the moment, it had better things to do with its money.
I was talking to the old man the other day who was in at the beginning of building the Nimrod MRA 4 as a fitter for BWOS circa 2001.
He said that they knew it would be a white Elephant from the start by the working practices that were forced upon them, as although the aircraft was being built at Woodford the project was being managed from Warton, so.....
When you came across a problem {say on a Monday} and needed the Engineer to make a decision the answer was "phone Warton and wait until Thursday" when he had time to turn up. And when he did arrive the usual answer was "I'll have to go back and have a look at it" consequently a 2 minute job took a whole week, lots of card games and twiddling of thumbs.
They frequently requested that the Engineering be based at Woodford but BWOS management knew better. He reckons it would have been flying 2 years earlier at the minimum and that we would not find ourselves in the current situation.
He said that they knew it would be a white Elephant from the start by the working practices that were forced upon them, as although the aircraft was being built at Woodford the project was being managed from Warton, so.....
When you came across a problem {say on a Monday} and needed the Engineer to make a decision the answer was "phone Warton and wait until Thursday" when he had time to turn up. And when he did arrive the usual answer was "I'll have to go back and have a look at it" consequently a 2 minute job took a whole week, lots of card games and twiddling of thumbs.
They frequently requested that the Engineering be based at Woodford but BWOS management knew better. He reckons it would have been flying 2 years earlier at the minimum and that we would not find ourselves in the current situation.
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Finding the ship - You can do this with an IPhone! The Ship Finder app gives you world wide ship positions, showing ship id, track, speed, even cargo. You could even coordinate the surface rescue with it, tracking and vectoring ships in the area.
Radio relay - Practically every ship has satellite phones, interent access and, in extremis, HF comms.
No, this is no longer a task for a MPA. The Nimrod had to stand or fall on its primary military task, finding, tracking and, potentially, destroying submarines. The government decided that, at the moment, it had better things to do with its money.
Radio relay - Practically every ship has satellite phones, interent access and, in extremis, HF comms.
No, this is no longer a task for a MPA. The Nimrod had to stand or fall on its primary military task, finding, tracking and, potentially, destroying submarines. The government decided that, at the moment, it had better things to do with its money.
Maybe forgetting about all the good work Nimrods did in the gulf over the past 10 years or so... But once again thats been ignored... Not to mention countless other ops that most people are not privvy to.
More bang for your buck
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Finding the ship - You can do this with an IPhone! The Ship Finder app gives you world wide ship positions, showing ship id, track, speed, even cargo. You could even coordinate the surface rescue with it, tracking and vectoring ships in the area.
Whilst I am concerned for the loss of maritime recce, SAR cover etc, I am most certainly not sad at the demise of the MR4. It is a a Comet derivative, for goodness sake! It's time was over long ago! Lonnnnnggggg ago!!!
It was an abomination that anyone had considered it suitable to refit and refurb again ..... except perhaps BAe, who have always treated the MoD in general, and the RAF in particular, as a blessed slush fund to keep BAe's overpriced, always-late, unwanted half-arsed 'gadgets' in production.
RIP MR4 ....... thank goodness!
It was an abomination that anyone had considered it suitable to refit and refurb again ..... except perhaps BAe, who have always treated the MoD in general, and the RAF in particular, as a blessed slush fund to keep BAe's overpriced, always-late, unwanted half-arsed 'gadgets' in production.
RIP MR4 ....... thank goodness!
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PartyAnimal your post summed up my thoughts and feelings regarding our Maritime Patrol capability. Had a most amazing time of a weeks works experience back in the day at Kinloss followed by an invite to come back for another flight from Sandra on 206 at the time. Always felt very welcome by the Nimrod community and this helped fuel my application for RAF WSOp. However now with changing times the AAC has grabbed me up.
All the best for the future for yourself and the other guys and girls, whatever it may hold.
All the best for the future for yourself and the other guys and girls, whatever it may hold.
The lack of LRMPA is a major hole in our defence capability. Nimrod MR4 may not have been the best platform but it was just about to enter service and we'd spent a lot of money getting to that stage. Isn't it odd that there are many moans about the "old comet" airframe, usually accompanied by lauding the Boeing P8.
Still, good to see Boeing making a jet that has been designed in the 21st century instead of using something designed in the 50s or 60s!
pm575
Still, good to see Boeing making a jet that has been designed in the 21st century instead of using something designed in the 50s or 60s!
pm575
Was not the 737 designed in the 60s? The P8 is as much a derivative of a 60s design as the MRA4 is of the Comet.
And the P-8 airframes will be (I presume) 100% new-build, and not based on 40-year-old fuselage structures.
I wonder if there was ever any serious consideration given to building the Nimrod 2000 with new fuselages - either designed from scratch (in which case it would have been a 100% new design) or by dusting off the old Nimrod plans and capturing them into the CAD system.
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Some dits?
Firstly, if you are an ex-SAR helo pilot then I have the utmost professional respect for you. No quibbles. The SAR crews of the RAF, RN and HMCG are aviators from the top drawer, with flying and crew skills 90% of the aviation world can only aspire to.
I have 4000 hours maritime (Nimrods, and an Orion exchange tour), and I have on many occasions watched a solitary Sea King beat its way across the ocean, 100+ miles from the nearest land, into the breaking dawn. I've also listened, in the darkened cockpit of my Nimrod at midnight, to a Buccaneer pilot trying to pass (in as calm a voice as he could muster) his best estimate of the location at which his wingman had flown into the sea at 540 knots. Nine and a half hours I think we flew that night; 23 years later, I can still hear the lifeboat announcing the discovery of a smashed flying helmet, and the music that was playing on the Ops Room tranny as we debriefed in the morning.
Evocative? Emotional? Yes, but I suspect that even the most hardened SAR aircrew would understand. It's an important business. So tread carefully on those memories, please. Comments such as
are rather harsh.
I was one of the pilots of that Nimrod crew, and the operation was somewhat awesome to be honest. The cost and flying hours can probably be doubled, because the ASI-based C-130 tanker flew almost as many hours as we did. Vastly expensive as it was, the operation was mounted at the request of the Australian govt, who also paid for it, as at least one the pilots was Aussie. Why? Because there was credible evidence that the pilots were survivors in the water. Why the Nimrod? Because it was the only platform in the world with the necessary reach and sensors. Regrettably, we were called out a whole week after the event, but still found smatterings of wreckage and the bodies in a search area of half the South Atlantic. It was a masterpiece, and generated huge international goodwill.
I actually agree with your main point, that procurement of Nimrod MRA4 can't be justified purely on the SAR role. But the list of events from which you quote was illustrative, not definitive. I recall about 2 call-outs a week at some points during my tours, not the annual events you suggest. Some - of course - were unsuccessful, but many saved lives.
I would also respectfully suggest that a 'rescue' does not necessarily have to mean the actual lifting of a survivor from the water; you know very well that a succesful rescue operation is a daisy-chain of events, all of which have to come together if the survivor is to end up tucked up in a hospital bed. I would argue that the point of rescue can be any decisive action without which that final result cannot be achieved. I know of several life-saving operations that categorically would not have been successful had an MPA not been there, but I've gone on long enough already!
So; respect for your expertise and opinion, but I do suggest you show a little more recognition to others who've played on your team in the past, and perhaps accept that we are surrendering a significant life-saving capability.
Firstly, if you are an ex-SAR helo pilot then I have the utmost professional respect for you. No quibbles. The SAR crews of the RAF, RN and HMCG are aviators from the top drawer, with flying and crew skills 90% of the aviation world can only aspire to.
I have 4000 hours maritime (Nimrods, and an Orion exchange tour), and I have on many occasions watched a solitary Sea King beat its way across the ocean, 100+ miles from the nearest land, into the breaking dawn. I've also listened, in the darkened cockpit of my Nimrod at midnight, to a Buccaneer pilot trying to pass (in as calm a voice as he could muster) his best estimate of the location at which his wingman had flown into the sea at 540 knots. Nine and a half hours I think we flew that night; 23 years later, I can still hear the lifeboat announcing the discovery of a smashed flying helmet, and the music that was playing on the Ops Room tranny as we debriefed in the morning.
Evocative? Emotional? Yes, but I suspect that even the most hardened SAR aircrew would understand. It's an important business. So tread carefully on those memories, please. Comments such as
"15 August 1987. Aided by air to air refueling, 120 Squadron crew conducted a SAR search, 4,000 nautical miles from base, looking for a light aircraft that had disappeared off West Africa. In 10 days, operating out of Ascension Island, the crew flew 93 hours and searched over 200,000 square miles of ocean. Eventually they located the aircraft wreckage and sighted the bodies of the two missing pilots"
I can shorten that to "flew an incredible amount at vast expense and accomplished nothing much"
I can shorten that to "flew an incredible amount at vast expense and accomplished nothing much"
I was one of the pilots of that Nimrod crew, and the operation was somewhat awesome to be honest. The cost and flying hours can probably be doubled, because the ASI-based C-130 tanker flew almost as many hours as we did. Vastly expensive as it was, the operation was mounted at the request of the Australian govt, who also paid for it, as at least one the pilots was Aussie. Why? Because there was credible evidence that the pilots were survivors in the water. Why the Nimrod? Because it was the only platform in the world with the necessary reach and sensors. Regrettably, we were called out a whole week after the event, but still found smatterings of wreckage and the bodies in a search area of half the South Atlantic. It was a masterpiece, and generated huge international goodwill.
I actually agree with your main point, that procurement of Nimrod MRA4 can't be justified purely on the SAR role. But the list of events from which you quote was illustrative, not definitive. I recall about 2 call-outs a week at some points during my tours, not the annual events you suggest. Some - of course - were unsuccessful, but many saved lives.
I would also respectfully suggest that a 'rescue' does not necessarily have to mean the actual lifting of a survivor from the water; you know very well that a succesful rescue operation is a daisy-chain of events, all of which have to come together if the survivor is to end up tucked up in a hospital bed. I would argue that the point of rescue can be any decisive action without which that final result cannot be achieved. I know of several life-saving operations that categorically would not have been successful had an MPA not been there, but I've gone on long enough already!
So; respect for your expertise and opinion, but I do suggest you show a little more recognition to others who've played on your team in the past, and perhaps accept that we are surrendering a significant life-saving capability.
I had heard that there was some very serious consideration given to new fuselages with one manufacturer presenting a very serious bid. However it was something to do with funding, modifying and new build. Politics is sometimes wonderful!
MM
MM
So, where was the Nimrod guy acting as a talking head yesterday pointing out the fact that their withdrawal impinged on cases like this?
You all missed a massive chance to strike whilst the iron was hot, oh well....
You all missed a massive chance to strike whilst the iron was hot, oh well....
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NO MPA's
What makes this such a travesty is that the government saw fit to effectively throw away the £billions spent so far AND not even recognised the need for ANY kind of MPA.
Even a few Coastguarder-types such as the HC-144A Ocean Sentry (USCG); CN-235 (like Mexico) of C-295 (like Chile) could have provided a limited range of capability of the MRA4 and at a fraction of the cost.
It would also have maintained a cadre of maritime specialists so as to keep open the option of going for P8's (or whatever) when the economy can stand it.
Same applies to the FAA. I can just imagine when the RN eventually gets a new flat-top the response to the pipe "Hands to Flying Stations"......
"whats's that mean?"
"dunno, mate"
"haven't heard that one before"
"what do we do?"
"I'll ask the Chiefy"
"Don't ask me, this is my first time afloat, and I've been in x years!"
Did anyone tell our wonderful lords and masters that skills fade and perish
. And when the've gone, the're gone for ever.......
MB
Even a few Coastguarder-types such as the HC-144A Ocean Sentry (USCG); CN-235 (like Mexico) of C-295 (like Chile) could have provided a limited range of capability of the MRA4 and at a fraction of the cost.
It would also have maintained a cadre of maritime specialists so as to keep open the option of going for P8's (or whatever) when the economy can stand it.
Same applies to the FAA. I can just imagine when the RN eventually gets a new flat-top the response to the pipe "Hands to Flying Stations"......
"whats's that mean?"
"dunno, mate"
"haven't heard that one before"
"what do we do?"
"I'll ask the Chiefy"
"Don't ask me, this is my first time afloat, and I've been in x years!"
Did anyone tell our wonderful lords and masters that skills fade and perish
. And when the've gone, the're gone for ever.......MB
Seat pin
Oh dear oh dear,
Feeling a little insecure and precious are we? All emotional and unable to handle the stress? So let me get this right – our govt has just wasted £3.5Bn of taxpayers money, removed a massive capability that puts UK defence at risk and will not be replaced, is about to make redundant hundreds of fellow RAF members and in particular, those from the Nimrod Force and is about to reduce a vast swathe of the NE of Scotland to an economic wilderness… and your only response is to mention your AEO inferiority complex on a public forum!! Dry your eyes princess.
Absolutely no chip on my shoulder with regards to the AEO fraternity. Some of the finest people I have met in my life happened to be AEO’s (one still is). Regardless of anyone’s brevet, branch or trade, there are those who are good and you respect them and there are those who aren’t. I have flown with AEO’s who provided strong leadership, guidance and direction, those who offered logical suggestions both when planning missions and executing them and those who quite frankly struggled to add 5 degrees and 1 kt to the Tac Navs assessment of target submarine course and speed (Tac Nav has the submarine going 357 degrees at 8 kts – AEO has 362 degrees at 10 kts..Err I mean 9 kts…).
Two traits that the good ones had were that none of them had undergone a penis enlargement procedure (as far as I know) and all of them could give as good as they got in the banter department. Spelt b-a-n-t-e-r if you’re struggling with the long word. But if it helps you, I will refrain from taking cheap shots at AEO’s in future. I promise not to mention dimmer switches, AEO eject buttons or keeping the sun off the tac screen and in your case I won’t mention your callsign (Table-4-1) or your legendary radio reply to HMS Swiftsure after she called FLUSHING until 1045Z – “Confirm you’re FISHING until 1045Z?”
Seriously though – if you do feel unloved, take my advice. Stop playing Leonard Cohen albums and go and speak to the padre. The last thing Kinloss needs right now is another mad AEO running across northside with 2 pencils up his nose!
Oh dear oh dear,
Feeling a little insecure and precious are we? All emotional and unable to handle the stress? So let me get this right – our govt has just wasted £3.5Bn of taxpayers money, removed a massive capability that puts UK defence at risk and will not be replaced, is about to make redundant hundreds of fellow RAF members and in particular, those from the Nimrod Force and is about to reduce a vast swathe of the NE of Scotland to an economic wilderness… and your only response is to mention your AEO inferiority complex on a public forum!! Dry your eyes princess.
Absolutely no chip on my shoulder with regards to the AEO fraternity. Some of the finest people I have met in my life happened to be AEO’s (one still is). Regardless of anyone’s brevet, branch or trade, there are those who are good and you respect them and there are those who aren’t. I have flown with AEO’s who provided strong leadership, guidance and direction, those who offered logical suggestions both when planning missions and executing them and those who quite frankly struggled to add 5 degrees and 1 kt to the Tac Navs assessment of target submarine course and speed (Tac Nav has the submarine going 357 degrees at 8 kts – AEO has 362 degrees at 10 kts..Err I mean 9 kts…).
Two traits that the good ones had were that none of them had undergone a penis enlargement procedure (as far as I know) and all of them could give as good as they got in the banter department. Spelt b-a-n-t-e-r if you’re struggling with the long word. But if it helps you, I will refrain from taking cheap shots at AEO’s in future. I promise not to mention dimmer switches, AEO eject buttons or keeping the sun off the tac screen and in your case I won’t mention your callsign (Table-4-1) or your legendary radio reply to HMS Swiftsure after she called FLUSHING until 1045Z – “Confirm you’re FISHING until 1045Z?”
Seriously though – if you do feel unloved, take my advice. Stop playing Leonard Cohen albums and go and speak to the padre. The last thing Kinloss needs right now is another mad AEO running across northside with 2 pencils up his nose!
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Party Animal
Oh how I chuckled, it's you who kept the Sqn line book! I concur (whoops nearly gave myself away there, except my monocle gives my trade away) with your views on AEO's. In fact there are Cpl's I would trust with my life, and pilots I wouldn't trust with a lawn mower. However, thats not what I was wanting to write.
Tester78
Do you remember Interkitty 125?
Anyone else
We in the forces, (or ex in my case), always have a problem with other aircraft types, tanks and ships for we only have a perception of what they do. To maritime guys (and gals) Fast Jet pilots zoom around for a couple of hours and go home, its hardly worth getting all dressed up for that. Tankers just fly on autopilot for 5 hours in circles. Transport ac merely travel from A to B picking up allowances and little else. The only exception is the SAR helo for we know how difficult that job is. AAC helos are just mad flying like hooligans at 10ft or less, and the RN consists of 'Roger wait out'. Our job of course is varied and difficult, as a 6 month OCU proves, or are we just slow?
The truth of course, is much different, and we are all guilty (myself included) of not appreciating how skillful our colleagues in all services are until of course we get to see it at first hand. Because so many on this forum are not aware of all the facts about the MRA4 they make assumptions on what they do know and most, of course, is incorrect.
So if you feel the Nimrod community is moaning unnecessarily, well its because we cannot see the logic in cancelling the ac. If you scrap Harrier, you still have Tornado and Typhoon that whilst might not do things in the same way are still offensive fast jet. There is NOTHING to replace the Nimrod in the UK inventory now, and that is the shameful fact. Yes, until the issue fades from memory we will continue to bemoan its loss. I know that money spent is just that and counts for nothing in the way that the Government paymaster thinks. Its the future costs of support they were trying to reduce, £200m pa off the spreadsheet, well that helps, now next subject. The devastation caused by that decision in human terms, is of no concern. Not enough votes to worry about, after all, its Scotland and they don't vote Tory at all these days, so nothing lost there.
Remember, I am retired, but I still have a life of memories on the ac and I am not likely to forget that easy.
Oh how I chuckled, it's you who kept the Sqn line book! I concur (whoops nearly gave myself away there, except my monocle gives my trade away) with your views on AEO's. In fact there are Cpl's I would trust with my life, and pilots I wouldn't trust with a lawn mower. However, thats not what I was wanting to write.
Tester78
Do you remember Interkitty 125?
Anyone else
We in the forces, (or ex in my case), always have a problem with other aircraft types, tanks and ships for we only have a perception of what they do. To maritime guys (and gals) Fast Jet pilots zoom around for a couple of hours and go home, its hardly worth getting all dressed up for that. Tankers just fly on autopilot for 5 hours in circles. Transport ac merely travel from A to B picking up allowances and little else. The only exception is the SAR helo for we know how difficult that job is. AAC helos are just mad flying like hooligans at 10ft or less, and the RN consists of 'Roger wait out'. Our job of course is varied and difficult, as a 6 month OCU proves, or are we just slow?
The truth of course, is much different, and we are all guilty (myself included) of not appreciating how skillful our colleagues in all services are until of course we get to see it at first hand. Because so many on this forum are not aware of all the facts about the MRA4 they make assumptions on what they do know and most, of course, is incorrect.
So if you feel the Nimrod community is moaning unnecessarily, well its because we cannot see the logic in cancelling the ac. If you scrap Harrier, you still have Tornado and Typhoon that whilst might not do things in the same way are still offensive fast jet. There is NOTHING to replace the Nimrod in the UK inventory now, and that is the shameful fact. Yes, until the issue fades from memory we will continue to bemoan its loss. I know that money spent is just that and counts for nothing in the way that the Government paymaster thinks. Its the future costs of support they were trying to reduce, £200m pa off the spreadsheet, well that helps, now next subject. The devastation caused by that decision in human terms, is of no concern. Not enough votes to worry about, after all, its Scotland and they don't vote Tory at all these days, so nothing lost there.
Remember, I am retired, but I still have a life of memories on the ac and I am not likely to forget that easy.