Nimrod MRA.4
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
immediate closure of the programme and cancellation of all work
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Okay now that I’m starting to sober up.....
Firstly to Jayand,
Some time ago on this thread, my complete confidence that the MRA4 would come into service was such that I offered to publicly eat my hat if in the remotest chance, I happened to be wrong. Interestingly, I didn’t get any support from other MRA4 believers but you were clearly confident that I was wrong and posted accordingly. I’m not sure as to why you had such strong and opposite views but my argument was based on the clear need for an island race to have a MPA and the fact that we had already paid £3.5Bn of taxpayers’ money to bring the capability in. So it is time to admit that you were right and I was wrong and I pay homage to your own convictions and awareness. Your airmanship was better than mine on this occasion. Clearly you are at the opposite end of the scale to me but at least you had the balls to stand up and be counted and I fully acknowledge that. Humble pie indeed from my seat. Additionally, please allow me to delay eating my million mission chip bag. As you also stated – I may need it to collect money whilst playing the accordion on some random street corner. As one of those almost certainly to be made redundant – not by choice, I’m starting to think that the old chip bag could be a nice touch to my begging bowl on the streets of Edinburgh – to go next to the sign that I’ll be holding up that mentions 30 years military service, medals from Iraq and Afghanistan, big mortgage, broke and only 3 months pay etc... Actually, now I think about it, an accordion player’s resettlement course is not a bad idea. I can replace the chimp with an AEO (not the same level of IQ obviously but still capable of being trained to rattle a can – the AEO that is). We could sing some old sqn songs to entertain the crowds…” Hey there Nimrod Crew Chief…” For the Nimrod yoofs on here, we used to sing sqn songs during beer calls or at detachment parties. I think the last time that happened was probably in the mid 80’s but like many things, it was once part of RAF life.
Next, for airpolice - yes, the world is still turning without a MPA. It would still turn if we scrapped all of our Armed Forces overnight. After all, Costa Rica and Iceland manage okay. We haven’t used AD of the UK since WW2 so that could go and you could probably cancel your house and contents insurance policy as well to save a bit of money because the chances are that your house will not set on fire or be burgled. For me personally, I wouldn’t like to take that risk and don’t mind spending a bit of money on peace of mind. You asked what was covering the gap. The answer is simple – our Allies. Bit like our F3 force going out to the Baltic to provide cover for another NATO ally. Interestingly enough, this will be a challenge when Kinloss closes next year and we will have another gap in UK defence – particularly support to our at sea deterrent. Plenty of useable runways around for our allies to use but none with acoustic replay capabilities or the unique comms and int feeds that are taken for granted at Kinloss. My prediction is that give it 12 months and they will tell us to stuff off. I understand there are already grumblings about having to bale us out – US taxpayers paying for British defence etc…
SFO – I feel your pain man, particularly with Mrs (absolutely not) SFO now being out of work as well. I’ll give you a call when I’m working for the Indians on the P8 if you fancy another new MPA programme. Let’s face it, India ain’t that much different from the Midlands and we both enjoy curry!
BWOS – Sadly, now, the whole company has become a metaphor in my eyes for a failing UK plc. 10,000 people employed on what many would see as an aircraft refurb programme and still it’s not in service. All that bullsh1t about processes, project management, holistic approaches to new working methods etc… and a total inability to sit down, design the bloody thing and get on with manufacturing it. By comparison and without looking at Google to get the exact facts (PN or Beags – please correct my memory), wasn’t it Kelly Johnson who was tasked via the Lockheed Skunk Works to produce a brand new and revolutionary recce aircraft back in the 60’s. As I recall from the Military History channel, he gathered together something like a team of 100 design engineers who sat in a room for 2 years working away with slide rules to eventually come up with the SR71 Blackbird. New material, new capability, engine inlet design, height, reach, speed etc. and flying within 5 years from thinks bubble to operational. Where did it all go wrong for us as a nation? All those media studies graduates doing diddly squat for our balance of trade.
WINCO – I probably sit on the fence when it comes to resignations by our hierarchy. After all, the leaked letter by Dr F at least indicated that he understood the importance of what the MRA4 would have brought to the party. Therefore, I conclude that he was on-side and by default our airforce leadership would almost certainly have been. My guess is that defence was outvoted by Osborne and we are already at the MRA4 history stage. What I do find absolutely shocking however, by our armed forces leadership, is that they brought into law, a reduction in redundancy payouts from 18 months to 3 months. I accept CAS telling me that he fought for MRA4 and lost. Now I would like him to look me in the eye and tell me when people are our greatest priority and we are rebuilding the military covenant how it can be justified that we are forcing people out of the door with a paltry 3 months pay off. Bearing in mind that the Nimrod Force supported the Falklands War, GW1, GW2, Bosnia and Afghanistan – and suffered the biggest loss of life of any unit in the last 20+ years, does he support the view that that’s all our people are worth? Not just a Nimrod issue by any means – pan defence certainly but a major kick in the teeth occurring at the same time as we are still fighting ‘the’ war and politicians continue with their snouts in the trough. We are told that we are the best and have worked harder during more conflicts than at any other time in our history and this is the reward?? Not saying this is down to CAS either – but who in the military defence chain of command supported this decision. Where was the leadership thinking behind looking after your troops? Or standing up to the blunties from the Civil Service? Guys who left in the mid 90’s would have received a much greater payout than those leaving in 2016. Anyone in the defence chain who allowed this to happen is a CU Next Tuesday – full stop.
Finally the MRA4 - Regardless of the delays and cost over run, without any shadow of a doubt, this would have been a massively capable aircraft in so many areas, had the willpower been there to exploit it. Probably more than any aircraft in our inventory, it would have had a finger in the pie of all the new MT’s just as much as it used to in the old MT’s. This includes Cyber Warfare although I am certainly not going to say how or why on this forum. It also includes the ability to carry and fire a range of weapons at extended ranges from base with self targeting. For our FJ bretheren, no-one ever talked about flying down valleys at 200’ to do this. More like flying over the Adriatic/Stan/Iraqi desert at high level and endurance speed waiting for the opportunity and well out of arms way of hostile AD or SAM threat.
Anyway, that’s enough for now – time to get back to work while there is still work to be done. Sad times indeed.
Firstly to Jayand,
Some time ago on this thread, my complete confidence that the MRA4 would come into service was such that I offered to publicly eat my hat if in the remotest chance, I happened to be wrong. Interestingly, I didn’t get any support from other MRA4 believers but you were clearly confident that I was wrong and posted accordingly. I’m not sure as to why you had such strong and opposite views but my argument was based on the clear need for an island race to have a MPA and the fact that we had already paid £3.5Bn of taxpayers’ money to bring the capability in. So it is time to admit that you were right and I was wrong and I pay homage to your own convictions and awareness. Your airmanship was better than mine on this occasion. Clearly you are at the opposite end of the scale to me but at least you had the balls to stand up and be counted and I fully acknowledge that. Humble pie indeed from my seat. Additionally, please allow me to delay eating my million mission chip bag. As you also stated – I may need it to collect money whilst playing the accordion on some random street corner. As one of those almost certainly to be made redundant – not by choice, I’m starting to think that the old chip bag could be a nice touch to my begging bowl on the streets of Edinburgh – to go next to the sign that I’ll be holding up that mentions 30 years military service, medals from Iraq and Afghanistan, big mortgage, broke and only 3 months pay etc... Actually, now I think about it, an accordion player’s resettlement course is not a bad idea. I can replace the chimp with an AEO (not the same level of IQ obviously but still capable of being trained to rattle a can – the AEO that is). We could sing some old sqn songs to entertain the crowds…” Hey there Nimrod Crew Chief…” For the Nimrod yoofs on here, we used to sing sqn songs during beer calls or at detachment parties. I think the last time that happened was probably in the mid 80’s but like many things, it was once part of RAF life.
Next, for airpolice - yes, the world is still turning without a MPA. It would still turn if we scrapped all of our Armed Forces overnight. After all, Costa Rica and Iceland manage okay. We haven’t used AD of the UK since WW2 so that could go and you could probably cancel your house and contents insurance policy as well to save a bit of money because the chances are that your house will not set on fire or be burgled. For me personally, I wouldn’t like to take that risk and don’t mind spending a bit of money on peace of mind. You asked what was covering the gap. The answer is simple – our Allies. Bit like our F3 force going out to the Baltic to provide cover for another NATO ally. Interestingly enough, this will be a challenge when Kinloss closes next year and we will have another gap in UK defence – particularly support to our at sea deterrent. Plenty of useable runways around for our allies to use but none with acoustic replay capabilities or the unique comms and int feeds that are taken for granted at Kinloss. My prediction is that give it 12 months and they will tell us to stuff off. I understand there are already grumblings about having to bale us out – US taxpayers paying for British defence etc…
SFO – I feel your pain man, particularly with Mrs (absolutely not) SFO now being out of work as well. I’ll give you a call when I’m working for the Indians on the P8 if you fancy another new MPA programme. Let’s face it, India ain’t that much different from the Midlands and we both enjoy curry!
BWOS – Sadly, now, the whole company has become a metaphor in my eyes for a failing UK plc. 10,000 people employed on what many would see as an aircraft refurb programme and still it’s not in service. All that bullsh1t about processes, project management, holistic approaches to new working methods etc… and a total inability to sit down, design the bloody thing and get on with manufacturing it. By comparison and without looking at Google to get the exact facts (PN or Beags – please correct my memory), wasn’t it Kelly Johnson who was tasked via the Lockheed Skunk Works to produce a brand new and revolutionary recce aircraft back in the 60’s. As I recall from the Military History channel, he gathered together something like a team of 100 design engineers who sat in a room for 2 years working away with slide rules to eventually come up with the SR71 Blackbird. New material, new capability, engine inlet design, height, reach, speed etc. and flying within 5 years from thinks bubble to operational. Where did it all go wrong for us as a nation? All those media studies graduates doing diddly squat for our balance of trade.
WINCO – I probably sit on the fence when it comes to resignations by our hierarchy. After all, the leaked letter by Dr F at least indicated that he understood the importance of what the MRA4 would have brought to the party. Therefore, I conclude that he was on-side and by default our airforce leadership would almost certainly have been. My guess is that defence was outvoted by Osborne and we are already at the MRA4 history stage. What I do find absolutely shocking however, by our armed forces leadership, is that they brought into law, a reduction in redundancy payouts from 18 months to 3 months. I accept CAS telling me that he fought for MRA4 and lost. Now I would like him to look me in the eye and tell me when people are our greatest priority and we are rebuilding the military covenant how it can be justified that we are forcing people out of the door with a paltry 3 months pay off. Bearing in mind that the Nimrod Force supported the Falklands War, GW1, GW2, Bosnia and Afghanistan – and suffered the biggest loss of life of any unit in the last 20+ years, does he support the view that that’s all our people are worth? Not just a Nimrod issue by any means – pan defence certainly but a major kick in the teeth occurring at the same time as we are still fighting ‘the’ war and politicians continue with their snouts in the trough. We are told that we are the best and have worked harder during more conflicts than at any other time in our history and this is the reward?? Not saying this is down to CAS either – but who in the military defence chain of command supported this decision. Where was the leadership thinking behind looking after your troops? Or standing up to the blunties from the Civil Service? Guys who left in the mid 90’s would have received a much greater payout than those leaving in 2016. Anyone in the defence chain who allowed this to happen is a CU Next Tuesday – full stop.
Finally the MRA4 - Regardless of the delays and cost over run, without any shadow of a doubt, this would have been a massively capable aircraft in so many areas, had the willpower been there to exploit it. Probably more than any aircraft in our inventory, it would have had a finger in the pie of all the new MT’s just as much as it used to in the old MT’s. This includes Cyber Warfare although I am certainly not going to say how or why on this forum. It also includes the ability to carry and fire a range of weapons at extended ranges from base with self targeting. For our FJ bretheren, no-one ever talked about flying down valleys at 200’ to do this. More like flying over the Adriatic/Stan/Iraqi desert at high level and endurance speed waiting for the opportunity and well out of arms way of hostile AD or SAM threat.
Anyway, that’s enough for now – time to get back to work while there is still work to be done. Sad times indeed.
Last edited by Party Animal; 26th Oct 2010 at 20:41.
russabottsouperhero
Great idea, count me in. Have been practicing my "contact visual no interest" call to make it just right. Starting the beer drinking training tomorrow.
Sad news about the fall of the hunter.
the Don
Great idea, count me in. Have been practicing my "contact visual no interest" call to make it just right. Starting the beer drinking training tomorrow.
Sad news about the fall of the hunter.
the Don
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Party Animal - you have just articulated exactly how I feel. Personally I am sick of airpolice et al; they just don't get it. But its ok someone will be on call for that urgent long range Ops1 job tonight. Oh thats right...they wont. Sleep well.
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Party Animal I commend your graciousness in defeat though I gain no pleasure from my "victory" in being correct.
I had no particular reason to believe it would be scrapped and certainly no wish for it to be, rather my prediction came about from deep cynacism of the Airforce and it's decision makers, that and the comments from the Defence secretary regarding "capability gaps and cold war thinking" I read between the lines and believed he was hinting at MPA.
Sorry to be right, it doesn't happen all that often!!
I had no particular reason to believe it would be scrapped and certainly no wish for it to be, rather my prediction came about from deep cynacism of the Airforce and it's decision makers, that and the comments from the Defence secretary regarding "capability gaps and cold war thinking" I read between the lines and believed he was hinting at MPA.
Sorry to be right, it doesn't happen all that often!!
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I cracked a joke in the Kinloss Ops Station Briefing Room, pre-flight, in the early 80s, having seen many military functions getting farmed out to civvies. "Ha!" I said. "Ha! Next thing you know, we'll be called 18 Group plc."
Dear me! Many a nearly true word spoken in gest. Now, there's a lot of people thinking: if only!!!
As an aside, but only because such things are suddenly very important: Did VP International get splashed? I joined when on 201 Squadron around 1986 or '87, but after leaving the RAF I became a lost trail & then "sunk" because I heard no more from them. Like many here (although no-one else will probably admit it) I am feeling even more nostalgic and needful of old mates, uccers and kokkinelli (I never knew that Cypriot brew was Welsh!!!?!!!).
Dear me! Many a nearly true word spoken in gest. Now, there's a lot of people thinking: if only!!!
As an aside, but only because such things are suddenly very important: Did VP International get splashed? I joined when on 201 Squadron around 1986 or '87, but after leaving the RAF I became a lost trail & then "sunk" because I heard no more from them. Like many here (although no-one else will probably admit it) I am feeling even more nostalgic and needful of old mates, uccers and kokkinelli (I never knew that Cypriot brew was Welsh!!!?!!!).
Breaking news this morning on the BBC, a factory ship is on fire 230 miles SW of the Scilies. The crew are reportedly taking to life rafts.
Without the Nimrod these guys are in a a far more serious situation than they might otherwise be in. The loss of this capability is going to cost lifes.
Without the Nimrod these guys are in a a far more serious situation than they might otherwise be in. The loss of this capability is going to cost lifes.
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They could not stop the Germans trying to overrun France
You are broke and we are broke, not to mention the french.(or the whole of sodding Europe)
We either need politicians to deal with that situation by saving or a war. Otherwise we will be all a department of China or India shortly. (It will be a takeover, just coorperate stuff, nothing hostile....)
But, just to cheer you up, you still have the channel to protect you! Operation Sealion is cancelled permanently.
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U2 - Design and Build
I thought I had read that the U2 went from concept to first flight in 100 days. Checking Wiki, which I know can be a bit fictional, I found the following:-
Eighty days after he began, Johnson had built his first U2; it was an efficient machine that could cruise at 90,000 ft. In August 1955, a test pilot flew the ship successfully—in a rainstorm.
Read more: Aviation: The Angel from the Skunk Works - TIME
That's the way to do it!
Eighty days after he began, Johnson had built his first U2; it was an efficient machine that could cruise at 90,000 ft. In August 1955, a test pilot flew the ship successfully—in a rainstorm.
Read more: Aviation: The Angel from the Skunk Works - TIME
That's the way to do it!
SAR Incident
The ship in distress has 111 people on board and is 230 miles SW of Cornwall. With a Nimrod locating it and either guiding other ships in the area to the location of the liferafts, or guiding helicopters to the area (if felt feasible), they have a chance. With no Nimrod, their chances of survival are dramatically reduced. I hope and pray that they are rescued.
However, this may be the first example of a major loss of life caused by the decision to take the MR2 out of service early and in turn to cancel the MRA4.
I hope those who either made or contributed to the decisions, are fully aware they may have blood on their hands. You know who you are.....
Still hoping for a successful outcome
A depressed Shadwell
However, this may be the first example of a major loss of life caused by the decision to take the MR2 out of service early and in turn to cancel the MRA4.
I hope those who either made or contributed to the decisions, are fully aware they may have blood on their hands. You know who you are.....
Still hoping for a successful outcome
A depressed Shadwell
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Party Animal 
A great piece of prose that says everything that those who know (and care) feel, only translated into a far more polite thread than the culpable individuals deserve! My fingers remain crossed whilst there are airframes and dedicated professionals.........
PS: You might want to amend your choice of can rattler based on the public's likely aversion to the faint scent of urine whilst bending over your cap.
A great piece of prose that says everything that those who know (and care) feel, only translated into a far more polite thread than the culpable individuals deserve! My fingers remain crossed whilst there are airframes and dedicated professionals.........
PS: You might want to amend your choice of can rattler based on the public's likely aversion to the faint scent of urine whilst bending over your cap.