European Military Capability.....

[wannabe87]

Just read the thread on the Congo- some very good points and debatable ones at that! So heres something i hope you'l get your teeth into

I am currently writing and researching my dissertation on European military capabilities. Its not entirely that simple but the jist of it is this... many academics argue that in order for Europe to potentially become a superpower it needs a united military capability

Just wondered as to your thoughts to this:
will it ever happen? Would you be happy to serve as part of a European Army/Forces? As servicemen/ex-serviceman your take may be entirely different to that of mine- would be interesting to hear what other peoples opinions and thoughts were and might give my dissertation a slightly different slant!

Thanks
Kirsty

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by wannabe87

Interesting thesis. What university?

Will it ever happen?

Probably, the equestion is when. I know we have the ARRC, STANFORLANT and STANFORMED etc but these are not quite the same thing you are getting at.

I suspect you are wondering if we would have unified forces such as those in the United States or former United Republic.

Would you be happy to serve as part of a European Army/Forces?

Probably again.

Look at the model of the British Army. It started as individual regiments with their own distinctive uniforms and formed into cohesive armies. Their disparate origins and resistance to change may be seen in the variety of cap badges that still exist.

Look at the armies of the United States. These were also individual militia and the national guard, in reality state units, and retain their individual identies although they are organised along the same lines as the national army and fight along side them.

Would you see similar distingusihed national regiments in Europe less keen on retaining their identities? The Foreign Legion for instance.

In my opinion the scale would be in decades if not centuries.

PS, to add that Air Forces are different. Many European countries formed squadrons in Britain during the second world war. Many of these retained the squadron numbers allocated by the Air Ministry and wear similar uniforms and rank badges to those of the RAF. Look at Danes, Dutch and Belgique for a start.

[brickhistory]

A question of sovereignty isn't it?


Does country A give up regiment XX and all control to this European Military?

What if country A doesn't agree with the decision of the EM on who/where/how to fight? Would they be free to withhold their forces?

Would tend to put a crimp in planning and execution of operations.

[Data-Lynx]

EU Defence Ministers Agree on Anti-Piracy Mission off Somalia

wannabe87. Try a google on "EU military piracy" as the EU Maritime Capability is already stirring.

EU ministers have committed to launch a Joint EU air and sea operation against pirates off Somalia. It is expected to last a year from its planned December launch and will aim to coordinate its role with other international forces.

Germany would send one frigate, said Defence Minister Franz-Josef Jung.

French Defence Minister Herve Morin stated that Belgium, Cyprus, France, Germany, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Britain would be involved in the task force.

It will have its headquarters in Northwood in Britain and British Rear Admiral Philip Jones has been proposed as its commander.

There are footnotes:
Some European politicians have criticised the push by the French EU presidency to deploy the EU force, saying it would draw on the same ships as NATO and was politically motivated to press a French drive for a stronger EU military role.

Geoffrey Van Orden MEP, Conservative defence spokesman, who has consistently questioned the motives of the EU military mission, said:

The EU has no useful military role to play in this, their involvement will just add confusion and complicate matters. The EU is desperate to find military operations that it can stick its flag on in order to give credibility to its defence pretensions. All EU countries planning to contribute frigates and destroyers to the "EU military mission" are already members of NATO, and contributing ships for anti-piracy operations.

[Founder]

I think it would be very difficult to create one big army in Europe for a number of reasons:

1: Budget, the amount of money every country spends is extremely different, depending on what kind of defense or military the country operates and what the purpose of that military is.

2. Types of Weapons. In the US they all use basically the same types of weapons varying from handheld to automotive or aircraft mounted. In europe every country uses different types of weapons all depending upon the climate and usage for that specific country. We also have a huge amount of military hardware manufacturers, Sweden, Finland, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Uk etc all build weapons adapted for a specific purpose...

3. Climate. Just think of the different climates that we have in europe, from almost desert like areas in the south to extreme winters in the north, these all call for different tactics, different weapons and knowledge. How is a general from spain to know how to fight a war in norway...

I think Europe will have a cooperation of military forces but never a "one single armed force".

[Sentry Agitator]

Already wearing two hats

The RAF already commits the E-3 Sentry to NATO as part of the complete NAEW&C infrastructure, however, there is also the national hat should the need arise.

Funding will be the big issue with the main question being who will pay for what.

LI's from Kosovo identified a raft of things from the air side alone; such as a lack of AAR/Strat & Tact AT/SH & AH, minimal SEAD/DEAD & CAS capable platforms & a limited choice of smart weapons being available throughout the European nations. Almost 10 years on I would argue that Europe is in a worse state with even fewer numbers of platforms being available to conduct all of the various roles needed. Granted, technology is smarter and we can (have to) do more with less.

You then get in to the realm of getting all member nations, or should that be states?, agreeing where, when and on what all of that lovely money will be spent on.

If we were to go down a route then:

1. Which nations defence industry would benefit most?
2. Who would be best for Ship building?
3. Who would be best for small arms/artillery?
4. Who would be best for the aero industry?
5. Is there a 'smart' smart weapons specialist nation?
6. Where would the workshare go?

A political nightmare from my humble opinion.

SA

[Mr C Hinecap]

Wannabe - where would this force fit? Would the governance be above the State? Given the State is the basic block of the international system, and NATO exists, as do the EU and the UN, how would the decisions be made?

[wannabe87]

Hinecap-yes it would be above state level ie that of a supranational one. Would almost be a branch off of the EU- so if a member state wants in then it would have to follow whatever the EU lays down in the interests of Europe not that of an individual state.
As is seen now the larger members today have the most voting seats when it comes to making decisions so ineffect they get what they anyway because they have the largest voting/vetoing power.. a Good or a bad thing?

hmmm to throw a spanner in the works im currently preparing a presentation for tomorrow on why Turkey should/should not become a member of the EU. Interesting to note that should Turkey be accepted it would then make it the 2nd (i think?) largest voting power- so a big potential decision maker, and from the reading ive done no one seems to be particularly keen on this given that it has many internal issues aswell as the fact that many argue it belongs with the Middle Eastern states. Although i came across that someone argued that on the plus side it had a large (ish) army to bring to the table as it were? not too sure on that one though!

i dont know the concept of European Military Capability on first look seems like a good thing but there just seems to be so many problems and objectives that need to be overcome- and arguably is there any point? Plus how many member states are we on now-25? it just simply isnt practical to combine the interests/budgets/forces you name it into one European force....

[TheInquisitor]

Would you be happy to serve as part of a European Army/Forces?

Over my dead body.

European military capabilities

An oxymoron if ever I saw one. Having the men and equipment means nothing unless you are prepared to get stuck in and use them. Although I guess it could work...as long as French and German troops are never sent anywhere where actual fighting is likely to take place. I offer you Afghanistan as a prime example.

for Europe to potentially become a superpower

...is the worst scenario I could imagine. The entire EU project is simply the unilateral wet-dream of a select group of French and German imperialists who are slowly managing to do with the pen what their predecessors failed to do with the gun several times over the last few centuries. Witness if you will their willingness to force their policies on EU 'citizens' against their will. Even when they condescend to allow referenda, if the answer the people give is not to their liking, they simply repackage the lies and ask the question again and again, until they get the 'right' answer. It is, in fact, the ONLY way the European 'project' CAN succeed, since the peoples of Europe are so different in their cultures and desires - having something imposed upon them which satisfies nobody, save for those at the top of the gravy mountain who stand to gain.

In short, no - there will never be a European State Armed Forces, since there will never be a European State. Unless, of course, we continue to capitulate to unelected, unacountable tyrants - the kind that countless generations of Sailors, Soldiers and Airman have given their lives defending against.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wannbabe,

The CIA World Facts Book will give you military spending and also its military manpower potential. This is good for comparative analysis.

The other essential document to track down is The Military Balance Taylor & Francis Journals: Welcome that you might find in the library.

The views so far would seem to suggest that state sovereignty is the issue and many would not wish to serve in a supranational, super state capacity.

Others that in some form it already exists.

What I was suggesting is that surrender of sovereignty, ie the US Civil War or of the United Kingdom or the creation of a Greater Russia or even a Greater Germany, were necessary for the creation of a single unified military force.

Would this happen in Europe?

The Norwegian view is that they have been a satellite of Sweden for centuries and only recently independent; they do not want to cede independence so soon. Look at Poland and other eastern European States. They are still savouring self-rule albeit within an EU structure.

Turkey is a modern country, less than 100 years old. The question of its accession is really a whole diferent subject. One question and I don't really know the answer, is why is Turkey in NATO?

Turkey was also a CENTO power. My guess is that it was to ensure that the Bosophorus, the Aegean and Black Seas all fell in one strategic treaty area. There may have been a sub-text but I will leave that to others to aduce.

[Wensleydale]

May I also throw a spanner into the works....

Even during coalition ops, different nations adhere to different Rules of Engagement. If a multi-national armed force is raised, which Nations' laws do they fight to? The argument that "I was only following orders" does not hold water these days, and therefore I suspect that ROEs would be very watered down to cover the legal requirements of all member states.

Just a thought.....

[PPRuNeUser0139]

EU forces

Wannabe87:
This is indeed a politically loaded question that, for it to succeed, would require many further changes to the EU constitution before it could be considered. I'm sure that the prospect of controlling EU-flagged forces will prompt more than a few Europols to salivate; however, it would come at a heavy price.
Leaving aside the politics (as we can here), there is one example already operating out there of the sort of co-operative multi-national military ventures that you are interested in studying, namely, the NATO Airborne Early Warning & Control Force (NAEW&CF).
This is, in microcosm, a multi-national force that is funded by 15 participating nations. The NAEW&CF, through the E-3A Component, owns & operates its own E-3A aircraft from a NATO base (the base is declared as NATO territory) in Germany. It was set up in the late 70s and there were many, myself included, who raised a cynical eyebrow at the concept. How could a large aircraft be operated by multi-national crews? Many thought it was highly ambitious and a step too far.
Suffice to say it has been a NATO success story IMHO. The program is managed by the NATO AEW&C Program Management Agency (NAPMA) and participating nations share in procurement, development, acquisition & operating costs - and, in turn, receive industrial benefits. This example shows that multi-national forces can and do work.
As defence budgets feel the pinch around the EU & NATO, it could be that financial constraints will force a drive towards the establishment of other such multi-national forces. Developing credible EU forces (without US participation) though would not be a cheap option. Lest we forget, the largest contributor to the NAEW&CF is the US.
It would seem to me, however, that it would be more convenient to develop these forces under the NATO umbrella rather than an EU one, especially considering the member states in one vs the other. But, in the end, I suppose it depends how badly the Europols want their own train set.

[Wader2]

SV, remember though that the NATO NE3A did not take part in Desert Storm but operated on the NATO flank in Turkey. Even then its operation was modified by national ROE as the Germans denied permission for German personnel to partcipate. IIRC and usual caveats on memory etc.

[ajl146]

Also this pooling of resources will be expanded with some NATO nations plus Sweden and Finland gaining a strategic airlift force based in Hungary similar in structure to the AWACS force.

[cazatou]

PN

Re Turkey

Turkey had remained neutral in WW2 (unlike in WW1) but had supported the UN in Korea with an Infantry Brigade operating under American Command. The idea of being in command of the high ground on both sides of the Straits of Mamaris was the reason for the Gallipoli campaign in WW1 - it would have been equally attractive following the establishment of the Iron Curtain.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by cazatou

Turkey had remained neutral in WW2 (unlike in WW1) but had supported the UN in Korea with an Infantry Brigade operating under American Command.

Quite true but remember.

There is an informative poster here:

http://www.nato.int/docu/posters/timeline-eng.pdf

The idea of being in command of the high ground on both sides of the Straits of Mamaris was the reason for the Gallipoli campaign in WW1 - it would have been equally attractive following the establishment of the Iron Curtain.

While this is true it could as well have served as the geographic boundary between NATO and CENTO. That of course could have presented a fault line in the US containment plan and was resolved with Turkey being a member of both organisations.

[wannabe87]

Some really interesting answers here and has given me a few ideas. Albeit though i cant expand on most of them in my dissertation as i have to base a lot of it on theoretical crap and the politics of it all rather than my preffered choice of looking at purely the military side of it- which has thoroughly peed me off! So much for writing what you want in your diss eh- oh the joys of being an undergrad

But thanks for the ideas some of which i didnt know existed and will definitely look into

[LeCrazyFrog]

Some day...

Wannabe,

Indeed a very complex issue. I think there are several facts to take into account:
1- Technical issues are not a problem, all ops nowadays are conducted under coalition forces, be it NATO, multinational, or "of the willing". We are used to train and exercise multinationally although we have different equipments, procedures, ROES,etc... We just adapt,improvise, overcome. So in my view it is not a real issue against a "european army" although obviously common equipement makes things easier and that is the direction were taking with the EDA (A400,etc...) and DTIDB.
2- Any "european defense" has to come from a general desire to have one and we can only admit that there are some different views on the matter: some are very happy to stay under the NATO umbrella, saves them to fund their own defense and they feel it will be more reliable than a EU one. Some others start to feel that EU worldwide political ambitions cannot be achieved with a proper defense, that is, credible and independant. Most striking example was the Bosnia war which has led the EU to define the Petersberg missions.

Facts:
- ESDP is already a reality, conducting peace keeping and peace enforcment missions in Europe, Georgia and Africa. And no, NATO is not able to conduct the anti-piracy ops in Somalia for the simple reason that it has not the legal background to arrest and prosecute the pirates which is why the 3 NATO frigates sent there have been withdrawn. It's no use stopping someone and then having to release him so he can do it again a couple days later...There is some ranting going on because peace keeping/enforcement are not "real ops". Surely they are less glamorous than OIF/OEF, however it is probably more sensible to start buiding the house from the basement rather than from teh roof...
- As said on this thread, one of the main issues is sovereignty. In 1954, EDC was binned because nobody wanted to lend any sovereignty at all. A generation later, people are ready to conduct ops under EU command...Change is slow and it takes a generation to change the perception of things. In a few (many) years time, after many more EU missions, people will be so used to them that they will admit it makes sense to have a robust EU defense policy...
Whatever will come out (because something will eventually), it won't be like the US miltary, build in 200 years around one nation. It will be something different and original, based on our 2000 years of history (of beating the c**p out of each other mainly...) and I would say that that will give us even more legitimacy: succeeding in conducting ops with so many different points of view...nobody will accuse us of being partisan or one sided...

Hope it helps...

[Modern Elmo]

We are used to train and exercise multinationally although we have different equipments, procedures, ROES,etc...

How about actual fighting? How much actual fighting are the French doing either multinationally or unilaterally?

train and exercise multinationally = empty show, make-believe warriors.

[BackfromIraq]

Worth looking at issues raised by the war on the eastern front (Axis forces), and the Korean War (UN Forces), and how units of some countries had limited capablity, due to either poor equipment or training, or both.

Frequently in Russia the Germans provided the punch while the weaker Axis forces protected the (often dangerously exposed) flanks. Once the Russians worked this out and exploited it, it was devastating for the Axis forces.

In Korea (really the first truly multinational army), it was often the South Korean forces which folded very swiftly leaving the flanks of the much more capable forces exposed, leading to the retreat of the UN forces. Even the Battle of Imjin River, where the line was held very effectively to allow time for a controlled withdrawal, exposed problems with C2, with the British ability to understate the seriousness of the situation leading to the loss of the Glosters.