European Military Capability.....
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Will NATO go away in that case? Possibly, but to what benefit to either the European nations or the US?
Without the European members NATO would cease to exist.
I can't see it happening myself though, there is far to much deep-routed mistrust between the various nations that make up the EU. All the happy thoughts and press releases in the world aren't going to bring around the average Joe, Jaques or Juan to the Federalists way of thinking and nor should it.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There is a significant amount of piracy in the Malacca Straits and South China Seas.
There are also issues in other parts of the Indian Ocean besides Somalia.
Many years ago my father was subject to an attempted pirate attack. They were alert and noticed when they picked to a floating rope. A pair of junks were then swept alongside only to be met with high pressure steam hoses.
Game set and match.
There are also issues in other parts of the Indian Ocean besides Somalia.
Many years ago my father was subject to an attempted pirate attack. They were alert and noticed when they picked to a floating rope. A pair of junks were then swept alongside only to be met with high pressure steam hoses.
Game set and match.
Guest
Posts: n/a
stacker, your:
Didn't address both sides of my question:
I also asked what benefit the Europeans would draw from a new organization over the existing NATO.
However, I agree with your summation.
lecrazyfrog: Do you think the EU (so the EU is to be the 'federal' government? All treated equally? I wish you luck with that, but that's not my place to critique further) force will act in a different manner? Have they? What if one member nation doesn't want to use force? Does it then withdraw its toys? Which brings it back to sovereignty, I think.
Regarding NATO, I don't disagree with you. Some of the ways the NATO agreement has been modified/stretched are staggering.
Surely the concept of NATO only exists due to the will of the participating countries who are in it? If all the European nations decided to go their own way whether it was to the benefit of the US or not is of no consequence.
Will NATO go away in that case? Possibly, but to what benefit to either the European nations or the US?
However, I agree with your summation.
lecrazyfrog: Do you think the EU (so the EU is to be the 'federal' government? All treated equally? I wish you luck with that, but that's not my place to critique further) force will act in a different manner? Have they? What if one member nation doesn't want to use force? Does it then withdraw its toys? Which brings it back to sovereignty, I think.
Regarding NATO, I don't disagree with you. Some of the ways the NATO agreement has been modified/stretched are staggering.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I seem to remember that there was a precedent for this. Harry Coyle has written a novel with a modern setting along the same lines. Sobering in a way once you accept the initial premise.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Green
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lecrazyfrog: Do you think the EU (so the EU is to be the 'federal' government? All treated equally? I wish you luck with that, but that's not my place to critique further) force will act in a different manner? Have they? What if one member nation doesn't want to use force? Does it then withdraw its toys? Which brings it back to sovereignty, I think.
- I don't think the EU defense will or should act in a different manner. Look at it this way: Bosnia 92, complete failure of the European countries to solve a crisis at our doorstep. US, which were not interested whatsoever, still had to get involved so it did not escalate. Now, a coherent EU defense would have intervened, because it was a matter of prime interest for european countries, and the US would have stayed away because they were, understandably, not interested. And actually, the EU defense has really kicked off from there.
- Now the difficult bit is the practical side of things and as you said, sovereignty is the key. EU countries, all of them, ned to be ready to give some of it away in order to go further, and that will be very little step by very little step...Nothing to be worried about tho, took us 2000 years to realise we could live together without fighting each other...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
[QUOTE=LeCrazyFrog;4526145 US, which were not interested whatsoever, still had to get involved so it did not escalate.[/QUOTE]
OTOH I seem to remember that Wesley Clark was all for starting WWIII with Gen Mike Jackson in the fore. He wanted MJ to kick the Russians off the airfield and he refused.
That was also an instance where unified command was effectively split by national sovereignty of forces and national ROE.
Only when we have a USE on the USA or USSR models with a central Federal Government with nation states relegated to internal affairs could we consider a proper unified European Force.
OTOH I seem to remember that Wesley Clark was all for starting WWIII with Gen Mike Jackson in the fore. He wanted MJ to kick the Russians off the airfield and he refused.
That was also an instance where unified command was effectively split by national sovereignty of forces and national ROE.
Only when we have a USE on the USA or USSR models with a central Federal Government with nation states relegated to internal affairs could we consider a proper unified European Force.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wannabbe87, while you have many useful leads and arguments here you will, never-the-less, have difficulty using these in a thesis.
Have you considered PM to contributors whose items you might wish to quote and asking for proper citation information?
Have you considered PM to contributors whose items you might wish to quote and asking for proper citation information?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
EU May Use Brussels HQ for Horn of Africa Ops
BRUSSELS - EU foreign affairs ministers are considering using a civil-military headquarters in Brussels for small-scale operations off the Horn of Africa.
In conclusions to their meeting here Dec. 1, they say they have agreed "to accelerate planning for the activation of an EU Civil-Military Operations Centre for Horn of Africa operations, at the latest by the next Foreign Affairs Council." The next EU affairs meeting is scheduled for late January. Currently EU operations have their HQs in individual member states.
According to an EU ministers statement, "When the nature of the operation does not require a national HQ, the Council stands ready to activate on an ad-hoc basis the Operations Centre in accordance with its terms of reference for a specific Common and Security Defence Policy [CSDP] Operation."
The decision appears to signal a U-turn in the U.K.'s stance on the issue. Back in the summer, Catherine Ashton, the EU's high representative for foreign and security policy, proposed an EU HQ for planning and carrying out EU military and civil missions abroad. In July, U.K. Foreign Affairs Minister William Hague said, "the U.K. will block any such move now and in the future."
The EU is currently running two operations in the Horn of Africa - the Atalanta counterpiracy mission and the EU training mission in Somalia. The Brussels' operations center may be used for any new, small-scale contributions to the Horn of Africa, such as building regional maritime capacity, said an official from the EU's Military Staff.
Where the EU has an existing command structure, such as Atalanta at the Northwood HQ in the U.K., an official from the EU Military Staff said "there is no intention of changing a working system on conduct. "For Atalanta in particular, they are extremely well-placed in Northwood - allowing synergies with the NATO counterpiracy operation - and the scale of the command is far outside of the capacity of the Brussels' operations center," he added.
"We need to help regions [off the Horn of Africa] conduct counterpiracy themselves," Lt. Gen. Ton Van Osch, director-general of the European Union Military Staff, told Defense News in an interview. "A new line of EU action is to help countries develop their own coast guards and navies. Here, the EU military could do the training as part of a civilian mission if the political and security committee decided on a mission." In the interview, Van Osch gives his views on various issues, including pooling and sharing proposals relating to air-to-air refueling and smart munitions.
On pooling and sharing, ministers recalled "the need to develop cooperation on military capabilities on a longer term and more systematic basis," and stressed the need "to further examine the impact of reduced defense spending on capabilities, including its possible impact on key industrial and technological capacities to be maintained and developed in Europe." The ministers also encouraged further coordination between the European Defence Agency and the European Commission, "in particular in the field of Research and Technology, in particular regarding the new European Framework Programme for Research and Technology (Horizon 2020)."
They also recalled the commitment of the EU defense chiefs to establish or widen collaborative pooling and sharing projects by mid-2012, urged member states to take on the role of lead nation for concrete projects, and "will assess the progress made in April 2012." They also stressed "the need to further analyze and address the constraints related to the availability, usability and deployability of existing military capabilities in CSDP operations and missions."
In addition, they bemoaned the fact that, in the first semester of 2012, "only one [EU] battlegroup will be on stand-by" and called for "efforts in order to remedy such shortfalls in the future."
BRUSSELS - EU foreign affairs ministers are considering using a civil-military headquarters in Brussels for small-scale operations off the Horn of Africa.
In conclusions to their meeting here Dec. 1, they say they have agreed "to accelerate planning for the activation of an EU Civil-Military Operations Centre for Horn of Africa operations, at the latest by the next Foreign Affairs Council." The next EU affairs meeting is scheduled for late January. Currently EU operations have their HQs in individual member states.
According to an EU ministers statement, "When the nature of the operation does not require a national HQ, the Council stands ready to activate on an ad-hoc basis the Operations Centre in accordance with its terms of reference for a specific Common and Security Defence Policy [CSDP] Operation."
The decision appears to signal a U-turn in the U.K.'s stance on the issue. Back in the summer, Catherine Ashton, the EU's high representative for foreign and security policy, proposed an EU HQ for planning and carrying out EU military and civil missions abroad. In July, U.K. Foreign Affairs Minister William Hague said, "the U.K. will block any such move now and in the future."
The EU is currently running two operations in the Horn of Africa - the Atalanta counterpiracy mission and the EU training mission in Somalia. The Brussels' operations center may be used for any new, small-scale contributions to the Horn of Africa, such as building regional maritime capacity, said an official from the EU's Military Staff.
Where the EU has an existing command structure, such as Atalanta at the Northwood HQ in the U.K., an official from the EU Military Staff said "there is no intention of changing a working system on conduct. "For Atalanta in particular, they are extremely well-placed in Northwood - allowing synergies with the NATO counterpiracy operation - and the scale of the command is far outside of the capacity of the Brussels' operations center," he added.
"We need to help regions [off the Horn of Africa] conduct counterpiracy themselves," Lt. Gen. Ton Van Osch, director-general of the European Union Military Staff, told Defense News in an interview. "A new line of EU action is to help countries develop their own coast guards and navies. Here, the EU military could do the training as part of a civilian mission if the political and security committee decided on a mission." In the interview, Van Osch gives his views on various issues, including pooling and sharing proposals relating to air-to-air refueling and smart munitions.
On pooling and sharing, ministers recalled "the need to develop cooperation on military capabilities on a longer term and more systematic basis," and stressed the need "to further examine the impact of reduced defense spending on capabilities, including its possible impact on key industrial and technological capacities to be maintained and developed in Europe." The ministers also encouraged further coordination between the European Defence Agency and the European Commission, "in particular in the field of Research and Technology, in particular regarding the new European Framework Programme for Research and Technology (Horizon 2020)."
They also recalled the commitment of the EU defense chiefs to establish or widen collaborative pooling and sharing projects by mid-2012, urged member states to take on the role of lead nation for concrete projects, and "will assess the progress made in April 2012." They also stressed "the need to further analyze and address the constraints related to the availability, usability and deployability of existing military capabilities in CSDP operations and missions."
In addition, they bemoaned the fact that, in the first semester of 2012, "only one [EU] battlegroup will be on stand-by" and called for "efforts in order to remedy such shortfalls in the future."
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
EU politics: German defence minister gives game away
An exclusive interview of German defence minister Thomas de Maizière, for the Guardian highlights an apparent inconsistency, as the minister suggests that a UK outside the European Union would "jeopardise military standing".
Ostensibly, this is an absurd assertion, as the UK would continue to participate in joint military ventures through its membership of NATO, the activities of which are increasingly duplicating EU military initiatives.
Unwittingly, though, de Maizière is revealing a mindset now prevalent amongst European defence ministers, who are sharing the view offered by this article, effectively conceding that the days of NATO are numbered..............
An exclusive interview of German defence minister Thomas de Maizière, for the Guardian highlights an apparent inconsistency, as the minister suggests that a UK outside the European Union would "jeopardise military standing".
Ostensibly, this is an absurd assertion, as the UK would continue to participate in joint military ventures through its membership of NATO, the activities of which are increasingly duplicating EU military initiatives.
Unwittingly, though, de Maizière is revealing a mindset now prevalent amongst European defence ministers, who are sharing the view offered by this article, effectively conceding that the days of NATO are numbered..............
ORAC
And then of course there is this article from today's Torygraph
Shouldn't that actually be the other way round. As NATO was here first, it is the EU that are replicating NATO military structures/initiatives etc.
And then of course there is this article from today's Torygraph
membership of NATO, the activities of which are increasingly duplicating EU military initiatives.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 24th Apr 2013 at 10:19.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: England
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wannabbe87,
If I can tear you away from all this 'knights of the air' and 'grey funnel line' stuff, you may wish to research the ground component:
Eurocorps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Eurocorp is a standing ground force which is the military equivalent of the Euro - ie far too federalist for the UK to play.
The issue is as a Danish politician said to me is that the purpose of the EU is to stop the French and Germans killing each other in Belgium. Once it starts getting delusions of grandeur it starts to become a potential threat. Will the soviets (sorry showing my age) Russians wear a large standing military capability on their western border given the previous form of the Europeans in Russia? (2x European superstate = march on Moscow)
Ultimately it is a question of body bags - will any nation state accept a large number of body bags coming home in a cause which is not in their direct national interest - I think not and that will sap away any political will.
HTH
EG
If I can tear you away from all this 'knights of the air' and 'grey funnel line' stuff, you may wish to research the ground component:
Eurocorps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Eurocorp is a standing ground force which is the military equivalent of the Euro - ie far too federalist for the UK to play.
The issue is as a Danish politician said to me is that the purpose of the EU is to stop the French and Germans killing each other in Belgium. Once it starts getting delusions of grandeur it starts to become a potential threat. Will the soviets (sorry showing my age) Russians wear a large standing military capability on their western border given the previous form of the Europeans in Russia? (2x European superstate = march on Moscow)
Ultimately it is a question of body bags - will any nation state accept a large number of body bags coming home in a cause which is not in their direct national interest - I think not and that will sap away any political will.
HTH
EG
Last edited by ExGrunt; 24th Apr 2013 at 10:50.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Will the soviets (sorry showing my age) Russians wear a large standing military capability on their western border
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: England
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Orac,
BTW: your old server is still giving sterling service TVM.
I think I was speaking figuratively - but I note that the Eurocorps badge includes Europe out to the Ural mountains!
Ukraine could well be a pivotal state in 21/22 century. Personally I hope we hit a socking great gas/oil field in the Atlantic basin and energy ceases to be the big issue it is currently shaping up to be in the decades ahead.
EG
BTW: your old server is still giving sterling service TVM.
I think I was speaking figuratively - but I note that the Eurocorps badge includes Europe out to the Ural mountains!
Ukraine could well be a pivotal state in 21/22 century. Personally I hope we hit a socking great gas/oil field in the Atlantic basin and energy ceases to be the big issue it is currently shaping up to be in the decades ahead.
EG
