Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Danny, Another side track I am afraid! Interesting story from India.
Wreckage sites of 3 WW-II fighter planes at Loktak Lake identified - The Times of India
I expect that it went unnoticed at the time?
mmitch.
Wreckage sites of 3 WW-II fighter planes at Loktak Lake identified - The Times of India
I expect that it went unnoticed at the time?
mmitch.
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Union Jack,
Of course, the 1671 includes many comments, questions and answers to queries as well as my Main Story Posts. It might have been useful if I'd serially numbered these from the outset, but I suppose I could always tot them up as I've signed off "Danny42C" only on those Posts; the "spin-offs" are all ended "Danny".
I'm really humbled by the appreciation that everybody has shown of my efforts, but still must maintain (as Chugalug has well put it a few Posts later) that I was only a cog in the vast machine that was the wartime RAF. There were a million other untold stories in those years every bit as interesting - and more - than mine that never can be told now. And so it continued post-war.
To quote Churchill's famous words (at Fulton, Missouri ?): "It was the British People that had the Lion's Heart........It fell to me to supply the Roar ". On a much smaller scale, it seems that it may have fallen to me to supply a squeak or two on behalf of the millions that proudly marched behind that truly Great Man (and I am grateful for that)....D.
MPN11,
Mainly because: "Funny things happen to me on my way to the theatre" (and usually they're a lot funnier than the act itself) "
Glad to have brightened your day !........D.
Wander00,
Thanks for the kind words. Will Prenez Garde.....D.
Chugalug,
First, thank you for the advice in your very helpful PM, which I am studying carefully before my reply.
I'm gratified that my stories have given pleasure and entertainment to so many of my readers, but as the son of a County Cork father and a Lancashire mother, I can only claim a half share in Kipling's stirring words on behalf of my generation:
"Greater the deed, greater the need,
Lightly to laugh it away.
Shall be the mark of the English breed,
Until the Judgment Day".
Our greatest contempt has always been reserved for those among us who made a habit of "Blowing their own Trumpet" or (rather less elegantly: "bumming their load"). This expression seems have long gone out out of use, and I don't know the derivation. In the same way, the rule in respect of gallantry medal ribbons seen on the left breast has always been: "Never Ask, never Tell". It is sufficient to know that the recipient has gained the award, the details are no business of yours...D.
mmitch,
Wll have a look at this Link - thanks...D.
Goodnight to you all, Danny.
Of course, the 1671 includes many comments, questions and answers to queries as well as my Main Story Posts. It might have been useful if I'd serially numbered these from the outset, but I suppose I could always tot them up as I've signed off "Danny42C" only on those Posts; the "spin-offs" are all ended "Danny".
I'm really humbled by the appreciation that everybody has shown of my efforts, but still must maintain (as Chugalug has well put it a few Posts later) that I was only a cog in the vast machine that was the wartime RAF. There were a million other untold stories in those years every bit as interesting - and more - than mine that never can be told now. And so it continued post-war.
To quote Churchill's famous words (at Fulton, Missouri ?): "It was the British People that had the Lion's Heart........It fell to me to supply the Roar ". On a much smaller scale, it seems that it may have fallen to me to supply a squeak or two on behalf of the millions that proudly marched behind that truly Great Man (and I am grateful for that)....D.
MPN11,
Mainly because: "Funny things happen to me on my way to the theatre" (and usually they're a lot funnier than the act itself) "
Glad to have brightened your day !........D.
Wander00,
Thanks for the kind words. Will Prenez Garde.....D.
Chugalug,
First, thank you for the advice in your very helpful PM, which I am studying carefully before my reply.
I'm gratified that my stories have given pleasure and entertainment to so many of my readers, but as the son of a County Cork father and a Lancashire mother, I can only claim a half share in Kipling's stirring words on behalf of my generation:
"Greater the deed, greater the need,
Lightly to laugh it away.
Shall be the mark of the English breed,
Until the Judgment Day".
Our greatest contempt has always been reserved for those among us who made a habit of "Blowing their own Trumpet" or (rather less elegantly: "bumming their load"). This expression seems have long gone out out of use, and I don't know the derivation. In the same way, the rule in respect of gallantry medal ribbons seen on the left breast has always been: "Never Ask, never Tell". It is sufficient to know that the recipient has gained the award, the details are no business of yours...D.
mmitch,
Wll have a look at this Link - thanks...D.
Goodnight to you all, Danny.
"To quote Churchill's famous words (at Fulton, Missouri ?): "It was the British People that had the Lion's Heart.......It fell to me to supply the Roar". What a great quote, and truly apt, to quote Danny. Few of us now following this thread can truly contribute, from the point of actual experience, as you can, we can only assimilate and contemporise from our own experience. Perhaps, with deference to the history of this thread, the title needs to have "and beyond" added, perhaps we could then continue the flow through to current times. A true record of significance. I'm sure there are many who served after WW2, in the RAF, who have tales to tell, that reflect on the training and subsequent operational experiences. Can the thread be expanded ? I know the moderators have been more than amenable to various posts which seem to diverge from heading! I'm sure though that Cliffnemo and regle would have a little chuckle at how their story has become the best thread on PPRUNE, and, how many diversities it has undergone through the process. Like everyone, you are entitled to a "tea and wad" after a splendid bat, allowing yourself the luxury of picking your points to intercede. I'm sure that there must be pilots out there, who have followed this thread, who earned their wings in the years following WW2, who could show how pilot training changed (if it ever did), what parts of RAF pilot training were influenced, and changed as a result of the success of training in the USA during WW2? I think that such contributions could help shape our understanding of current policy. I do believe there is a policy, and I'm certain that buried in it somewhere are lessons from 42C and its like all those years ago. Sorry for the diatribe, but that Churchill quote is so apt to this thread. Stay well and keep up the posts Danny
Smudge
Smudge
As I mentioned in a previous post I witnessed the transformation of Chinese aviation from an organisation that Hong Kong CAA advised us not to fly on to one of the worlds leaders in air safety. They have done this by studying and incorporating western standards of operation and, as in my case, using western personnel to supervise and train to that standard.
My experience on fixed wing was limited as a passenger. I have already mentioned the Shanghai Wuhan flight. On another with a Yak 42 I opened the overheads to put my bag in and you could see the frames and stringers. When I exited the door at my destination I looked along the fuselage and you could see the lumps sticking out where hard cases had been thrown in. On one occasion departing Luzhou before the terminal was built the hardstanding was by the end of the runway. The cabin attendant had given her passenger brief and was proceeding up the aisle checking seat belts when the captain opened the taps for takeoff whilst he was in the turn for line up so she ended up on my lap. I thought the safest thing for her was for me to hold on to her. She struggled for a second but came to my way of thinking, (partially) and stayed there until we were established in the climb. Nowadays that couldn’t happened as on my travels around China this year the service has been excellent. Sometimes the passengers aren’t the best behaved in the world but for millions such an experience is still new.
So it was with our pilots. When I first arrived the Chinese pilots were experienced ex military pilots. My operation was effectively run by a British company (Bristow) to North Sea standards because the oil companies were mainly American and they demanded that assurance. (There’s gotta be white eyes up front) There soon reached a stage where the better English speaking pilots were entitled to command the aircraft and at that time they were all British registered. The company then brought them to the UK where they went though the entire procedure to obtain CAA ALTP(H)s. This would be hard going for anybody but especially so for someone to whom English is not their first language. This was accepted by the relevant oil companies with good grace and then the Chinese company bought their own aircraft. They were the same type, but different instruments, because at the time all Chinese aircraft had dials in metres and kilometres. To maintain flexibility that meant the British pilots had to get endorsements by the Chinese CAA (CAAC). This lasted for over a decade until CAAC decided to go with the rest of world and insist on a Chinese licence after six months. Fortunately the examinations were in English.
The ex-military first officers without a working knowledge of English were not so fortunate and they continued as second dicky. It also meant that you had to have an interpreter on board. At that time all ATC was in Chinese so you asked the interpreter to ask your co-pilot for a clearance. There would then be a prolonged conversation with air traffic and eventually you may get the clearance you requested. I had one of the captains with me and we were discussing an island that had an old military block and a helipad, long disused. He said the when he was in the Navy he used to fly there. It was established that whilst he was in the Navy he achieved about 1,000 hrs over fifteen years, and most of that is what he called training. In the PLA a pilot is under training until he gets command and that includes years as a co-pilot.
We had a new batch of first officers in 1995. They were trainee Navy pilots just past their graduation stage. We needed them because of the requirement to speak English, now becoming a CAAC requirement. With them I was fireproof because I was in my late fifties and age is still one of the major triggers for respect in China. I had trained with Chinese of the RMAF way back when and I had also spent three years in Singapore so I was familiar with the Chinese way of thinking and doing things. There is also the problem of Face. They are not happy when they are told they are doing something wrong without realising it. I found that the best way of correcting them when we were proceeding to certain disaster was to suggest a course of action in such a way that they would think it was their idea. I could let it go quite a long way because at that time I had over 10,000 hrs offshore and 7,000 hrs on that particular type.
They were, however, taught to fly by numbers and what we had to instil into them was co-operation and initiative. When they were released to the Chinese captains they soon found out the difference between the captains who had British licences and North Sea experience compared with the old dogs. However they were retiring and eventually we were left with just the Bristow trained ones.
As time went by I arrived at sixty and retired from the operation. I flew contract in Aberdeen and whilst I was there some of our new co-pilots came for the British licences and NS experience. In 2004 I went back for a social visit and discovered that CAAC would respect a British licence up to the age of sixty five. Coincidentally one of the Bristow pilots had had a argument in a bar, clocked the bar owner and decided that the healthiest thing to do was to leave the country. They were now one pilot short. About a week later I was back in Hong Kong renewing my medical and then I was back on line.
Six months later I was sixty five, my public transport qualification ceased so the same problem came up again. We had an Australian training captain who suggested I go to Australia and get an OZ licence because they last for life. We checked with CAAC and they stated that they would respect an Australian licence so on this I went to Perth After lots of ducking and weaving I got an Australian licence, came back to China and got a Chinese endorsement. Having an OZ licence meant that when it was slack in China I could fly for Bristow (Aus) and that I did. Having extensive military experience I could fly for them in the Solomon Islands on their RAMSI contract. I could also fly for them on the oil support in Karratha.
Over the time from 1998-2006 I was flying contract for Bristow. When I was flying a in China over sixty five I was not allowed to fly a British registered aircraft so I was restricted to the now majority Chinese aircraft. This gave rise to the situation that I was being paid by a major British helicopter company but I was not permitted to fly their aircraft. The situation changed in 2006 when the CAAC demanded that all pilots should get a Chinese licence. This I did and shortly after that Bristow pulled out of China.
There were four of us working in China at the time and COHC offered us contracts we could not refuse to continue with them. I flew with them as commander for a further eighteen months and my last flight on 9th Nov 2008 was three weeks short of the 48th anniversary of my first solo on the 29th Nov 1960 at High Ercall, a place Danny knows of.
The foreign pilots fell off and retired as time went by, the last leaving in March this year. I have been back to see them, the last time this year. They now have three times the work ands three times the aircraft than before. Their new pilots are now trained at the Bristow College in the United States, the Chinese military need their now very highly trained expensive personnel for themselves.
My experience on fixed wing was limited as a passenger. I have already mentioned the Shanghai Wuhan flight. On another with a Yak 42 I opened the overheads to put my bag in and you could see the frames and stringers. When I exited the door at my destination I looked along the fuselage and you could see the lumps sticking out where hard cases had been thrown in. On one occasion departing Luzhou before the terminal was built the hardstanding was by the end of the runway. The cabin attendant had given her passenger brief and was proceeding up the aisle checking seat belts when the captain opened the taps for takeoff whilst he was in the turn for line up so she ended up on my lap. I thought the safest thing for her was for me to hold on to her. She struggled for a second but came to my way of thinking, (partially) and stayed there until we were established in the climb. Nowadays that couldn’t happened as on my travels around China this year the service has been excellent. Sometimes the passengers aren’t the best behaved in the world but for millions such an experience is still new.
So it was with our pilots. When I first arrived the Chinese pilots were experienced ex military pilots. My operation was effectively run by a British company (Bristow) to North Sea standards because the oil companies were mainly American and they demanded that assurance. (There’s gotta be white eyes up front) There soon reached a stage where the better English speaking pilots were entitled to command the aircraft and at that time they were all British registered. The company then brought them to the UK where they went though the entire procedure to obtain CAA ALTP(H)s. This would be hard going for anybody but especially so for someone to whom English is not their first language. This was accepted by the relevant oil companies with good grace and then the Chinese company bought their own aircraft. They were the same type, but different instruments, because at the time all Chinese aircraft had dials in metres and kilometres. To maintain flexibility that meant the British pilots had to get endorsements by the Chinese CAA (CAAC). This lasted for over a decade until CAAC decided to go with the rest of world and insist on a Chinese licence after six months. Fortunately the examinations were in English.
The ex-military first officers without a working knowledge of English were not so fortunate and they continued as second dicky. It also meant that you had to have an interpreter on board. At that time all ATC was in Chinese so you asked the interpreter to ask your co-pilot for a clearance. There would then be a prolonged conversation with air traffic and eventually you may get the clearance you requested. I had one of the captains with me and we were discussing an island that had an old military block and a helipad, long disused. He said the when he was in the Navy he used to fly there. It was established that whilst he was in the Navy he achieved about 1,000 hrs over fifteen years, and most of that is what he called training. In the PLA a pilot is under training until he gets command and that includes years as a co-pilot.
We had a new batch of first officers in 1995. They were trainee Navy pilots just past their graduation stage. We needed them because of the requirement to speak English, now becoming a CAAC requirement. With them I was fireproof because I was in my late fifties and age is still one of the major triggers for respect in China. I had trained with Chinese of the RMAF way back when and I had also spent three years in Singapore so I was familiar with the Chinese way of thinking and doing things. There is also the problem of Face. They are not happy when they are told they are doing something wrong without realising it. I found that the best way of correcting them when we were proceeding to certain disaster was to suggest a course of action in such a way that they would think it was their idea. I could let it go quite a long way because at that time I had over 10,000 hrs offshore and 7,000 hrs on that particular type.
They were, however, taught to fly by numbers and what we had to instil into them was co-operation and initiative. When they were released to the Chinese captains they soon found out the difference between the captains who had British licences and North Sea experience compared with the old dogs. However they were retiring and eventually we were left with just the Bristow trained ones.
As time went by I arrived at sixty and retired from the operation. I flew contract in Aberdeen and whilst I was there some of our new co-pilots came for the British licences and NS experience. In 2004 I went back for a social visit and discovered that CAAC would respect a British licence up to the age of sixty five. Coincidentally one of the Bristow pilots had had a argument in a bar, clocked the bar owner and decided that the healthiest thing to do was to leave the country. They were now one pilot short. About a week later I was back in Hong Kong renewing my medical and then I was back on line.
Six months later I was sixty five, my public transport qualification ceased so the same problem came up again. We had an Australian training captain who suggested I go to Australia and get an OZ licence because they last for life. We checked with CAAC and they stated that they would respect an Australian licence so on this I went to Perth After lots of ducking and weaving I got an Australian licence, came back to China and got a Chinese endorsement. Having an OZ licence meant that when it was slack in China I could fly for Bristow (Aus) and that I did. Having extensive military experience I could fly for them in the Solomon Islands on their RAMSI contract. I could also fly for them on the oil support in Karratha.
Over the time from 1998-2006 I was flying contract for Bristow. When I was flying a in China over sixty five I was not allowed to fly a British registered aircraft so I was restricted to the now majority Chinese aircraft. This gave rise to the situation that I was being paid by a major British helicopter company but I was not permitted to fly their aircraft. The situation changed in 2006 when the CAAC demanded that all pilots should get a Chinese licence. This I did and shortly after that Bristow pulled out of China.
There were four of us working in China at the time and COHC offered us contracts we could not refuse to continue with them. I flew with them as commander for a further eighteen months and my last flight on 9th Nov 2008 was three weeks short of the 48th anniversary of my first solo on the 29th Nov 1960 at High Ercall, a place Danny knows of.
The foreign pilots fell off and retired as time went by, the last leaving in March this year. I have been back to see them, the last time this year. They now have three times the work ands three times the aircraft than before. Their new pilots are now trained at the Bristow College in the United States, the Chinese military need their now very highly trained expensive personnel for themselves.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 15th Oct 2014 at 09:12.
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It is sufficient to know that the recipient has gained the award, the details are no business of yours.
Thank you for your posts on here, Danny, and once again, thank you for your Service.
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The Future of the "Brevet" Thread.
Smudge,
I am giving thought to exploring the possibility of expanding the title of this Thread to something like: "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WW2 and in the Cold War" (which would carry it forward more than a generation frrom '45 to '91). It is becoming increasingly clear that the supply of old-timers who qualify under the old terms (and who by definition must nearly all be aged 90 or more), has dried up, and it is vain to hope for any more.
Either we bring fresh blood in, or the Thread (under its existing Title) must die, and that would be a pity.
Your: ".... the success of training in the USA during WW2....." risks setting me off on a favourite hobby-horse of mine - you may hear a lot more from me about this sometime - but not yet !
There are always lessons from the past, the trouble is that we do not learn them !
I intend to stay well, but there will be no more regular Posts, although I reserve the right to look in from time to time. "Char and Wad" time now.
Goodnight, Danny.
I am giving thought to exploring the possibility of expanding the title of this Thread to something like: "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WW2 and in the Cold War" (which would carry it forward more than a generation frrom '45 to '91). It is becoming increasingly clear that the supply of old-timers who qualify under the old terms (and who by definition must nearly all be aged 90 or more), has dried up, and it is vain to hope for any more.
Either we bring fresh blood in, or the Thread (under its existing Title) must die, and that would be a pity.
Your: ".... the success of training in the USA during WW2....." risks setting me off on a favourite hobby-horse of mine - you may hear a lot more from me about this sometime - but not yet !
There are always lessons from the past, the trouble is that we do not learn them !
I intend to stay well, but there will be no more regular Posts, although I reserve the right to look in from time to time. "Char and Wad" time now.
Goodnight, Danny.
FED, thank you for your posts re flying helicopters in China. When I was at Changi (1963-66) I developed a healthy respect for the Singapore Chinese who were the driving force of the island's economy. In those days they, and the rest of the overseas Chinese, used to remit large amounts of the wealth they created back to the mother country and to their families there. Perhaps that habit still pertains, for family and as you say respect for one's elders is very strong in their culture, but China has come on enormously in the meantime as we are all only too well aware.
The common sense pragmatism that you describe with which China developed its civil aviation is surely the story of China itself in microcosm. What an enormous distance they have travelled since being at the mercy of the Japanese Empire. Of course they still have great contrasts and contradictions to resolve, witness the unrest in HK right now. Of course the Party presides over everything, for better or for worse, but it is clear that China is set to be the world's leading super power, and rather sooner than later I would suggest. Your posts give us an insight as to why that is.
The common sense pragmatism that you describe with which China developed its civil aviation is surely the story of China itself in microcosm. What an enormous distance they have travelled since being at the mercy of the Japanese Empire. Of course they still have great contrasts and contradictions to resolve, witness the unrest in HK right now. Of course the Party presides over everything, for better or for worse, but it is clear that China is set to be the world's leading super power, and rather sooner than later I would suggest. Your posts give us an insight as to why that is.
Danny #6329,
You are, of course, correct in that should the thread stick to the title then it has a finite timespan. However, as one of many who have followed from #1, I honestly believe that it's continued examination of training and qualification of Royal Air Force Aircrew would always have been the intent once we had "explored most of the envelope" of WW2. I still firmly hope, and believe, that others, who quietly watch, have a story to tell, and might be inclined to contribute to the wealth of experience already recorded. I, as a mere follower, have no idea as to the whims of moderation on PPRUNE, and their likelihood of accepting the extension of this mighty tome. If it were out to a vote, I'm sure that I, along with many others would support such a move.
Until you started posting, I was absolutely unaware of the Vultee Vengence in RAF service, I freely admit I am no historian, but thought I had a decent grasp on RAF history. The fascinating story that followed opened my eyes to how we often miss important contributions in our rush to idolise the more glamorous end of the market. I bet the same would transpire if the thread was extended to years beyond WW2. I'm sure Cliffnemo would approve. Perhaps others have opinions that differ, and all should be heard. But where does it all go from here, hopefully a move forward through time from the WW2 era showing how the Royal Air Force learned, adapted and hopefully improved from the experience of you and your fellow servicemen of the era. Once again, I am guilty of excess verbosity. There must though be many thread followers who have an opinion. My vote is for pushing forward in to history.
Smudge
You are, of course, correct in that should the thread stick to the title then it has a finite timespan. However, as one of many who have followed from #1, I honestly believe that it's continued examination of training and qualification of Royal Air Force Aircrew would always have been the intent once we had "explored most of the envelope" of WW2. I still firmly hope, and believe, that others, who quietly watch, have a story to tell, and might be inclined to contribute to the wealth of experience already recorded. I, as a mere follower, have no idea as to the whims of moderation on PPRUNE, and their likelihood of accepting the extension of this mighty tome. If it were out to a vote, I'm sure that I, along with many others would support such a move.
Until you started posting, I was absolutely unaware of the Vultee Vengence in RAF service, I freely admit I am no historian, but thought I had a decent grasp on RAF history. The fascinating story that followed opened my eyes to how we often miss important contributions in our rush to idolise the more glamorous end of the market. I bet the same would transpire if the thread was extended to years beyond WW2. I'm sure Cliffnemo would approve. Perhaps others have opinions that differ, and all should be heard. But where does it all go from here, hopefully a move forward through time from the WW2 era showing how the Royal Air Force learned, adapted and hopefully improved from the experience of you and your fellow servicemen of the era. Once again, I am guilty of excess verbosity. There must though be many thread followers who have an opinion. My vote is for pushing forward in to history.
Smudge
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Post War Training
I too would be interested to learn more about post war aircrew training as I am trying to understand the approach, training schedules, squadron training, group exercises etc utilised by Bomber Squadrons (my own interest is No 35 Squadron) post war and through the 50's, 60's and 70's.
Very little seems to be documented about this era so ..... hopefully, not too wide a scope for the mods!
Regards
Pete
Very little seems to be documented about this era so ..... hopefully, not too wide a scope for the mods!
Regards
Pete
OK, this is difficult. I fully understand where Danny and Smudge are coming from but, with respect, I have to differ. Cliff started this thread on a very exact premiss, which was to explain the WW2 pilot training system. This got expanded into aircrew training generally and of subsequent operational experience in WW2. That in turn led to post war flying, both within and without military aviation. The starting point was however always per the OP, ie WW2.
I think that is crucial, as most if not all are in awe of that long close run struggle that gave us the freedoms that we enjoy today. That for me is the crux of this thread, how were civilians prepared (in this case to fly) to conduct war on a global scale and to prevail? Nothing since equates to it and thus pales into insignificance in comparison. How long would a thread entitled 'Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in the Cold War" last on its own? Cold War Warriors are derided on this Forum and no doubt Expeditionary Warfarers will be too in their turn. We are still revising our ideas about WW1 let alone about the Cold War. These things take time, and so does writing up one's own history. I certainly haven't done it yet and I doubt if many have yet of my age. Danny and the others who told us of their training in WW2 had, and we are all in their debt for sharing it with us.
If the day comes when I have finally researched and written up my memoirs, minor as they will be in comparison, then it might be acceptable to post them on this forum, but if so they will take their chances on another thread, for they will not qualify for this one IMHO. Anecdotes are one thing, and I have posted my fair share here along with others, but the story of one's training and subsequent career are another and should match the OP. Danny does and I, for one, don't.
Sorry Danny and Smudge. Not what you want to hear, I know.
I think that is crucial, as most if not all are in awe of that long close run struggle that gave us the freedoms that we enjoy today. That for me is the crux of this thread, how were civilians prepared (in this case to fly) to conduct war on a global scale and to prevail? Nothing since equates to it and thus pales into insignificance in comparison. How long would a thread entitled 'Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in the Cold War" last on its own? Cold War Warriors are derided on this Forum and no doubt Expeditionary Warfarers will be too in their turn. We are still revising our ideas about WW1 let alone about the Cold War. These things take time, and so does writing up one's own history. I certainly haven't done it yet and I doubt if many have yet of my age. Danny and the others who told us of their training in WW2 had, and we are all in their debt for sharing it with us.
If the day comes when I have finally researched and written up my memoirs, minor as they will be in comparison, then it might be acceptable to post them on this forum, but if so they will take their chances on another thread, for they will not qualify for this one IMHO. Anecdotes are one thing, and I have posted my fair share here along with others, but the story of one's training and subsequent career are another and should match the OP. Danny does and I, for one, don't.
Sorry Danny and Smudge. Not what you want to hear, I know.
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Future of the thread
"Not what you want to hear."
Perhaps, and there again perhaps not. I would surmise that if Cliff could see how his thread has progressed he would have no objection to Danny's suggestion of letting the conversation flow, as in Crewrooms of yore and to the present day I have no doubt. My vote is with Danny and Smudge.
Perhaps, and there again perhaps not. I would surmise that if Cliff could see how his thread has progressed he would have no objection to Danny's suggestion of letting the conversation flow, as in Crewrooms of yore and to the present day I have no doubt. My vote is with Danny and Smudge.
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Subject to the Mods not disagreeing I think it perfectly acceptable and even necessary that we move onto the 50's. This does not preclude any newcomer (or existing contributor) from the original era adding to the sum of our knowledge.
As someone who trained in the early 60's and who was a cold war warrior I think our turn has yet to come.
ACW
As someone who trained in the early 60's and who was a cold war warrior I think our turn has yet to come.
ACW
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Danny puts in an Addendum (Part I).
We'd had our last Christmas in Thirsk, and now it was the New Year of '73. It seems that the ever-solicitous RAF was still concerned with Mr D's welfare. For many years he'd lived in Mess without a care in the world about mundane things like fixing the plumbing and touching-up the paintwork. And even in later years, married, when they were living in Quarters, or Hirings, or privately rented houses, the infrastructure had been taken care of by the triumvirate of the Station Engineer, the Clerk of Works and the Barrack Warden (in the first instance) and the Landlord (in the last two).
And now they would be on their own, and would probably be seeking to buy their own house (if they had not already done so). Perhaps a few tips might not come amiss. Accordingly, Resettlement Courses had been set up in Catterick Camp (an easy daily commute from Thirsk). I do not know how many kinds of Course were on offer, but House Maintenance was one, and I enrolled in it. And, in a fit of quite extraordinary generosity, the RAF would keep you on full (former) pay for the month of the Course ! (but no mileage allowance - but you could hardly expect that ,too).
The posse of bewildered new civilians assembled on the appointed day to learn that a week would be alloted to Bricklaying and Plastering (don't try), a week to Plumbing, a week to Painting and Decorating, and (I think) a few days to Woodworking. I'm not very sure about this, but where else would I have been told to: "Think three times, measure twice, and cut once ?"
Actually, all the joints I ever made were not mortice and tenon (Life's too short), but dowelled (you can drill a new set of holes if you mess it up first time, or saw the dowels off flush if you've glued one end (if you've glued up both ends before finding you've got it wrong, it's not for you, try needlework).
The rest of the time was devoted to Financial Planning (which in practice meant being harangued by sundry Insurance Salesmen, each bent on getting his sticky hands on our Lump Sums), and general FAQs.
With the advantage of hindsight, I should've commuted the max (a half) of my Pension with all my Lump Sum, and bought a shed-load of Krugerrand, and we would be sitting very pretty indeed now. But Hindsight is much like many MOD purchases in that it arrives too late to be of any use when it does.
It was hilarious. We were in pairs for the bricklaying: My "hod-carrier" for the first part of the week had been a Signals colonel. then we swapped over. Naturally, they could not afford new bricks for each Course, so we mixed our mortar with double the proper proportion of water; when we'd finished it was easy to knock our constructions down and chip the weak mortar off the bricks for re-use. Like Balbus in ancient Rome ("Balbus aedificat murum" = "Balbus built a Wall": nobody knows who Balbus was or why or when he built it: it is surmised that it was the Roman equivalent of the "Queen Anne's dead" of our schooldays), we built a wall, too.
Our was a corner wall: it got to about four feet at the corner, it looked nice, it fell down of its own accord (perhaps somebody sneezed), which at least saved them the trouble of knocking it down. We tried plastering, but our efforts fell off the wall (so did everyone else's, come to that).
Next Monday our Painter took centre stage. All I can remember is the importance of Keeping a Wet Edge, and that professional painters always dilute the paint (for which you pay full whack) with white spirit before use, which allows them to stash away a tin or two, and that you can overnight brushes loaded with gloss paint in cold water. But he was interested not so much in providing instruction as in demonstrating his skill in "scumble" work, in which he was a past master, able to provide a stunningly convincing sheet of veined marble out of a piece of 3-ply.
The Pièce de Résistance came in the Wallpapering session in an afternoon of Wallpapering a Ceiling. To those who may be thinking of embarking on such an enterprise, I can only advise: "Don't !". Up stepladders, we struggled manfully with the wet, pasted paper, but to no avail ("You're not supposed to wear it like a hat !") If ever tempted, lie down until the feeling wears off, then emulsion it like everybody else.
That leaves the Plumbing. Although Britain had gone over to ½in copper long ago, we were still with the Romans in the Lead ages, at Catterick. We were introduced to the Blow Lamp. Those few of us with experience of the kerosene Pressure Lamp during our Indian years had no trouble in firing these up, an added bonus being that now we had meths instead of the local (alleged) Brandies or Whiskies (which might have explosive properties). We only suffered minor burns ourselves, and did not burn the place down (but I've heard rumour that a later Class managed it, but then you hear all sorts of things).
I cannot recall that I learnt anything of value, but remember something to do with Wiped Joints (whatever they may be). And for practice all that comes to mind was that we each had to solder (braze?) up an open end of a pipe. But I had vivid memories of some results (I think they kept a museum of the better efforts, which were extremely suggestive).
And then it was all over. January, '73 had been an entertaining, if not very instructive, month. And then the pay stopped. The Pension came in on time on the 15th prox, and has done so every month for 42 years now.
This has been a bit long, but it is all of a piece.
Goodnight, Danny.
Those who can - do. Those who can't - Instruct !
And now they would be on their own, and would probably be seeking to buy their own house (if they had not already done so). Perhaps a few tips might not come amiss. Accordingly, Resettlement Courses had been set up in Catterick Camp (an easy daily commute from Thirsk). I do not know how many kinds of Course were on offer, but House Maintenance was one, and I enrolled in it. And, in a fit of quite extraordinary generosity, the RAF would keep you on full (former) pay for the month of the Course ! (but no mileage allowance - but you could hardly expect that ,too).
The posse of bewildered new civilians assembled on the appointed day to learn that a week would be alloted to Bricklaying and Plastering (don't try), a week to Plumbing, a week to Painting and Decorating, and (I think) a few days to Woodworking. I'm not very sure about this, but where else would I have been told to: "Think three times, measure twice, and cut once ?"
Actually, all the joints I ever made were not mortice and tenon (Life's too short), but dowelled (you can drill a new set of holes if you mess it up first time, or saw the dowels off flush if you've glued one end (if you've glued up both ends before finding you've got it wrong, it's not for you, try needlework).
The rest of the time was devoted to Financial Planning (which in practice meant being harangued by sundry Insurance Salesmen, each bent on getting his sticky hands on our Lump Sums), and general FAQs.
With the advantage of hindsight, I should've commuted the max (a half) of my Pension with all my Lump Sum, and bought a shed-load of Krugerrand, and we would be sitting very pretty indeed now. But Hindsight is much like many MOD purchases in that it arrives too late to be of any use when it does.
It was hilarious. We were in pairs for the bricklaying: My "hod-carrier" for the first part of the week had been a Signals colonel. then we swapped over. Naturally, they could not afford new bricks for each Course, so we mixed our mortar with double the proper proportion of water; when we'd finished it was easy to knock our constructions down and chip the weak mortar off the bricks for re-use. Like Balbus in ancient Rome ("Balbus aedificat murum" = "Balbus built a Wall": nobody knows who Balbus was or why or when he built it: it is surmised that it was the Roman equivalent of the "Queen Anne's dead" of our schooldays), we built a wall, too.
Our was a corner wall: it got to about four feet at the corner, it looked nice, it fell down of its own accord (perhaps somebody sneezed), which at least saved them the trouble of knocking it down. We tried plastering, but our efforts fell off the wall (so did everyone else's, come to that).
Next Monday our Painter took centre stage. All I can remember is the importance of Keeping a Wet Edge, and that professional painters always dilute the paint (for which you pay full whack) with white spirit before use, which allows them to stash away a tin or two, and that you can overnight brushes loaded with gloss paint in cold water. But he was interested not so much in providing instruction as in demonstrating his skill in "scumble" work, in which he was a past master, able to provide a stunningly convincing sheet of veined marble out of a piece of 3-ply.
The Pièce de Résistance came in the Wallpapering session in an afternoon of Wallpapering a Ceiling. To those who may be thinking of embarking on such an enterprise, I can only advise: "Don't !". Up stepladders, we struggled manfully with the wet, pasted paper, but to no avail ("You're not supposed to wear it like a hat !") If ever tempted, lie down until the feeling wears off, then emulsion it like everybody else.
That leaves the Plumbing. Although Britain had gone over to ½in copper long ago, we were still with the Romans in the Lead ages, at Catterick. We were introduced to the Blow Lamp. Those few of us with experience of the kerosene Pressure Lamp during our Indian years had no trouble in firing these up, an added bonus being that now we had meths instead of the local (alleged) Brandies or Whiskies (which might have explosive properties). We only suffered minor burns ourselves, and did not burn the place down (but I've heard rumour that a later Class managed it, but then you hear all sorts of things).
I cannot recall that I learnt anything of value, but remember something to do with Wiped Joints (whatever they may be). And for practice all that comes to mind was that we each had to solder (braze?) up an open end of a pipe. But I had vivid memories of some results (I think they kept a museum of the better efforts, which were extremely suggestive).
And then it was all over. January, '73 had been an entertaining, if not very instructive, month. And then the pay stopped. The Pension came in on time on the 15th prox, and has done so every month for 42 years now.
This has been a bit long, but it is all of a piece.
Goodnight, Danny.
Those who can - do. Those who can't - Instruct !
Wiping a joint
A very nearly lost art of joining a lead pipe to copper pipe via a brass insert involving building up layers of solder (to effect the joint) and smoothing out each layer - and fluxing the next I think - with a tallow soaked rag. Demonstrated to me in my callow youth at about the same time as you Danny.
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Oh, hahaha Danny42C.
A masterly summing up (Part 1, I note with pleasure). I avoided the 'Bricklayer's Course' by moving, on retirement, seamlessly from Assistant Secretary of an RAF Sports Association to the post of full/part time Secretary and Treasurer, so my future employ had [to a large extent] been pre-destined. Accordingly, after some 20-odd years on 'T Committtteeeeee, I had the pleasure of another 10 years of that bizarre light blue comradeship that transcends rank/role/whatever in the sporting world.
In theory, 90 days a year. In reality, probably 3 days a week = really about 160, but at least it made the separation after my humble and inconsequential 29 years in light blue slightly more bearable. The disinterested receipt of my Clearance Card and RAF F1250 at SHQ, RAF Uxbridge in 1993 * , summed up one reason I left early. But the continuance of the REAL relationship with RAF comrades in my chosen sport for another 10 years in a voluntary role compensated fully for that experience. (Both I and my wife still have our 'boilerplate' letters from various 'High Personages' which may have some decent phrases but mean virtually nothing, as they run them off by the hundreds with exactly the same wording, it seems).
And so I swept out of the gates of RAF Uxbridge in my [then] Jaguar XJ6 4.0L, mentally raising 2 fingers to the bloody place ** but, at the same time, looking forward to spending another decade with real people in the RAF sporting environment.
* I first entered RAF Uxbridge in 1963, to be kitted out for the International Air Cadet Exchange to the USA (along with 'C4' of some later repute) with my Tropical No 6 uniform. No badges of rank or any sort to be attached, and none of my issue fitted anywhere - the crotch of my trousers was somewhere near my knees, IIRC. Difficult to be a cool young stud, dressed like that, in 1963
** Bloody Uxbridge ... too many years there, one way or another, either working there, or in OMQs or parented. Despite the long and 'distinguished' history, I have mixed emotions about bulldozing the place. Probably 15 of my 29 years on their books ... "Join the RAF and see the World (or West London/MoD)"
A masterly summing up (Part 1, I note with pleasure). I avoided the 'Bricklayer's Course' by moving, on retirement, seamlessly from Assistant Secretary of an RAF Sports Association to the post of full/part time Secretary and Treasurer, so my future employ had [to a large extent] been pre-destined. Accordingly, after some 20-odd years on 'T Committtteeeeee, I had the pleasure of another 10 years of that bizarre light blue comradeship that transcends rank/role/whatever in the sporting world.
In theory, 90 days a year. In reality, probably 3 days a week = really about 160, but at least it made the separation after my humble and inconsequential 29 years in light blue slightly more bearable. The disinterested receipt of my Clearance Card and RAF F1250 at SHQ, RAF Uxbridge in 1993 * , summed up one reason I left early. But the continuance of the REAL relationship with RAF comrades in my chosen sport for another 10 years in a voluntary role compensated fully for that experience. (Both I and my wife still have our 'boilerplate' letters from various 'High Personages' which may have some decent phrases but mean virtually nothing, as they run them off by the hundreds with exactly the same wording, it seems).
And so I swept out of the gates of RAF Uxbridge in my [then] Jaguar XJ6 4.0L, mentally raising 2 fingers to the bloody place ** but, at the same time, looking forward to spending another decade with real people in the RAF sporting environment.
* I first entered RAF Uxbridge in 1963, to be kitted out for the International Air Cadet Exchange to the USA (along with 'C4' of some later repute) with my Tropical No 6 uniform. No badges of rank or any sort to be attached, and none of my issue fitted anywhere - the crotch of my trousers was somewhere near my knees, IIRC. Difficult to be a cool young stud, dressed like that, in 1963
** Bloody Uxbridge ... too many years there, one way or another, either working there, or in OMQs or parented. Despite the long and 'distinguished' history, I have mixed emotions about bulldozing the place. Probably 15 of my 29 years on their books ... "Join the RAF and see the World (or West London/MoD)"