Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Fareastdriver
and Danny
In 1962 I was with 99 Sqn (Britannias) and my logbook shows we flew two flights from Sharjah to Delhi on 24th and 25th November 1962. On both flights we were fully loaded with boxed .303 rifles and ammunution.
One amusing anecdote, on the first flight to Delhi the AQM (Loadmaster) was asked by the Indian reception party whether there was anything the crew wanted, probably thinking he'd ask for some tea or whatever. The AQM was more adventurous and suggested a copy of the "Kama Sutra" would go down well! So when we arrived the next day at Delhi on the second flight the Indian reception party proudly presented each member of the crew with a copy of the Kama Sutra!
ISTR that our arrival to deliver supplies was covered by the Indian press and we proudly posed to reporters and cameramen as the saviours of the Indian nation brandishing the Kama Sutra!
Fighting between India and China stopped about then so I assume our arms deliveries worked.
...and FWIW I still have my copy of the Kama Sutra as a souvenier of my RAF service way back in 1962.
...“The Chinese and Indian governments are in dispute over their border in the Himalayas. This has given rise to fisticuffs and now they are beating bigger drums. The Indian Air Force has no all-weather fighter capability so the government, as a sign of support, are detaching 23 Squadron to India until the dispute is settled.”...
Why, in the name of all that's good and holy, were we putting our noses into that hornet's nest ? India, Pakistan (who would have a dog in the fight) and China were all big boys then (and, I think, all nuclear armed). Let them settle their own differences ! Hadn't we all the trouble we wanted in Europe with the Cold War and all that ?
Bit late in putting this comment in, but as I have some old, small knowledge of those parts, I have been researching the history and material available on Google (until I lost the will to live). It is a good thing that the "fisticuffs" mentioned were mainly just high altitude artillery duels and not something far more serious. Interesting, though.
Bit late in putting this comment in, but as I have some old, small knowledge of those parts, I have been researching the history and material available on Google (until I lost the will to live). It is a good thing that the "fisticuffs" mentioned were mainly just high altitude artillery duels and not something far more serious. Interesting, though.
In 1962 I was with 99 Sqn (Britannias) and my logbook shows we flew two flights from Sharjah to Delhi on 24th and 25th November 1962. On both flights we were fully loaded with boxed .303 rifles and ammunution.
One amusing anecdote, on the first flight to Delhi the AQM (Loadmaster) was asked by the Indian reception party whether there was anything the crew wanted, probably thinking he'd ask for some tea or whatever. The AQM was more adventurous and suggested a copy of the "Kama Sutra" would go down well! So when we arrived the next day at Delhi on the second flight the Indian reception party proudly presented each member of the crew with a copy of the Kama Sutra!
ISTR that our arrival to deliver supplies was covered by the Indian press and we proudly posed to reporters and cameramen as the saviours of the Indian nation brandishing the Kama Sutra!
Fighting between India and China stopped about then so I assume our arms deliveries worked.
...and FWIW I still have my copy of the Kama Sutra as a souvenier of my RAF service way back in 1962.
. .. . . . the picture conjured up of you and your crew . . . . pondering the screw. . as depicted in the book. . .. .were there any realisation of the couplings therein .. . you could be holed up in the sickbay for ages recovering from bouts of excessive contortion. . . .. a chiropractor's nightmare..
p.s. not many puns or lighter touches in that there manual . . .. . you won't find e.g. . . .. 'your kama ran over my dogma'.
p.s. not many puns or lighter touches in that there manual . . .. . you won't find e.g. . . .. 'your kama ran over my dogma'.
Last edited by Fantome; 27th Feb 2016 at 20:06.
Even though there was a war to be fought the vital need of entertainment for the troops was always recognised. There were shows. There were the very best of singers and musicians flown in over vast distances sometimes.
There were books catering for every taste. The Australian military magazine SALT went out fortnightly in a circulation approaching 200,000 copies.
Many a wartime song or poetic piece of some import was composed by talents inspired by an education that included Shakespeare, the great poets, and a study of the classics. (Had not Richard Hilary enjoyed that exposure at Oxford he could never have written the supreme example of true literature he did recounting the horrors of war, but also its camaraderie .'The Last Enemy'.)
There were books catering for every taste. The Australian military magazine SALT went out fortnightly in a circulation approaching 200,000 copies.
Many a wartime song or poetic piece of some import was composed by talents inspired by an education that included Shakespeare, the great poets, and a study of the classics. (Had not Richard Hilary enjoyed that exposure at Oxford he could never have written the supreme example of true literature he did recounting the horrors of war, but also its camaraderie .'The Last Enemy'.)
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MPN11 (your #8229),
Thank you for the picture of the Wound Stripes worn by your Great-Uncle Jack. But what about that marvellous old Captain seated in front of them - an absolute dead-ringer for Captain Square of "Dad's Army" - do we know anything about him ?
Looks like a "dug-out" from the Boer War (or earlier) ?
Danny.
Thank you for the picture of the Wound Stripes worn by your Great-Uncle Jack. But what about that marvellous old Captain seated in front of them - an absolute dead-ringer for Captain Square of "Dad's Army" - do we know anything about him ?
Looks like a "dug-out" from the Boer War (or earlier) ?
Danny.
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Far away places with queer sounding names.....
Nugget90 (your #8228),
My only contact with the Liberators was with 159 Squadron at Salbani ( not far from Digri in W. Bengal). Only thing I remember is being told that, if the brakes failed on landing, the thing would roll for eleven miles (on a level, smooth surface) before stopping. For some reason that statistic has taken root in my memory ever since. Don't know Dhubalia.
Now:
... to fly Dakotas (C47s) in support of the Army 'over the Hump' due to the pressing need to keep supplies flowing to where they were needed. They flew mainly to Indawgyi Lake, Imphal and Mogaung...
Danny.
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Despatched Under Plain Cover.
Warmtoast (your #8242),
Why so ? The gunsmiths in any town on the old NW Frontier would supply you with any quantity of SMLEs and ammo you wanted - a lot cheaper, too (home-made, but servicable - or nicked from us - and could soon whip-up a few more). [oh dear, oh dear, I forgot: they're all in Pakistan now, aren't they ?] But surely by '62, wasn't everybody involved using the AK-47, or some local rip-off (Chinese Type 56, Indian Trichy assault rifle, etc ?)
All I can remember were the problems of the Elephant Woman and the Rabbit Man - but we'd better not go into that ! 
Danny.
...In 1962 I was with 99 Sqn (Britannias) and my logbook shows we flew: two flights from Sharjah to Delhi on 24th and 25th November 1962. On both flights we were fully loaded with boxed .303 rifles and ammunution...
...ISTR that our arrival to deliver supplies was covered by the Indian press and we proudly posed to reporters and cameramen as the saviours of the Indian nation brandishing the Kama Sutra!...
Danny.
If not straying too far off topic . . .. Old Mate just dug out from his files a Chris Wren ODDENTIFICATION of the Australian stop-gap fighter the CAC Boomerang. That got me thinking about the time Chris was passing through Australia from New Zealand, on his way home.
in 1974 . . .when working for Connair (formerly Connellan Airways) out of Alice Springs , early one morning Joe Blow , our commercial manager, appeared in the briefing office, as it transpired, about to relate details of a VIP passenger, bound by company Queenair for Victoria River Downs so as to make a Darwin connection... thence to London. But as Joe approached, before he could utter a word, I noted in his hand an A4 sheet of paper with a sketched caricature , unmistakenly of himself, but also without a doubt, by an artist and journalist well known to me by his work.
So when Joe said good morning .. I've a special passenger for you this morning. . . . I could not but respond . . .. oh good. . I'm a great admirer of Chris Wren. . . if that's your man.
Joe was mildly flabbergasted at what he thought was miraculous intuition.
We proceeded to the terminal where Joe did the introductions . .. . then loadsheet in hand walked out to our plane, Joe still escorting Chris. There was one of those huge USAF Lockheed C141 Starlifters parked nearby. Chris asked what was it . .. . to which I unthinkingly said commonly called the shirtlifter by the blokes in the tower here, forgetting for the moment that Joe was qualified in that department. Did I blush? Probably not.
The flight to VRD was a rare treat , with Chris in the right seat relating fascinating yarns the whole way. (Joe, needless to say, was not Joe)
in 1974 . . .when working for Connair (formerly Connellan Airways) out of Alice Springs , early one morning Joe Blow , our commercial manager, appeared in the briefing office, as it transpired, about to relate details of a VIP passenger, bound by company Queenair for Victoria River Downs so as to make a Darwin connection... thence to London. But as Joe approached, before he could utter a word, I noted in his hand an A4 sheet of paper with a sketched caricature , unmistakenly of himself, but also without a doubt, by an artist and journalist well known to me by his work.
So when Joe said good morning .. I've a special passenger for you this morning. . . . I could not but respond . . .. oh good. . I'm a great admirer of Chris Wren. . . if that's your man.
Joe was mildly flabbergasted at what he thought was miraculous intuition.
We proceeded to the terminal where Joe did the introductions . .. . then loadsheet in hand walked out to our plane, Joe still escorting Chris. There was one of those huge USAF Lockheed C141 Starlifters parked nearby. Chris asked what was it . .. . to which I unthinkingly said commonly called the shirtlifter by the blokes in the tower here, forgetting for the moment that Joe was qualified in that department. Did I blush? Probably not.
The flight to VRD was a rare treat , with Chris in the right seat relating fascinating yarns the whole way. (Joe, needless to say, was not Joe)
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Yeah, you're pretty close, Fareastdriver.
We had no real fighters at the time, but were producing the Wirraway advanced trainer (a development of the NA16)
and somebody had a bright idea..
What if we cobble together some Wirraway bits and nail a P&W1830 on the front...?
Thus came into being, within a matter of a few months, the "Boomerang" stop-gap fighter.
As an aircraft, it turned out surprisingly well but the arrival of capable American fighters (eg, P40 Kittyhawks) in country, saw it relegated
to Army co-operation and ground-attack roles.
Its armament was two 20mm cannon. (Edit: and 4 X .303s).
BTW, Chris Wren's caricature is spot on.
.
We had no real fighters at the time, but were producing the Wirraway advanced trainer (a development of the NA16)
and somebody had a bright idea..
What if we cobble together some Wirraway bits and nail a P&W1830 on the front...?
Thus came into being, within a matter of a few months, the "Boomerang" stop-gap fighter.
As an aircraft, it turned out surprisingly well but the arrival of capable American fighters (eg, P40 Kittyhawks) in country, saw it relegated
to Army co-operation and ground-attack roles.
Its armament was two 20mm cannon. (Edit: and 4 X .303s).
BTW, Chris Wren's caricature is spot on.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 28th Feb 2016 at 14:33. Reason: add edit.
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Originally Posted by Danny42C
Thank you for the picture of the Wound Stripes worn by your Great-Uncle Jack. But what about that marvellous old Captain seated in front of them - an absolute dead-ringer for Captain Square of "Dad's Army" - do we know anything about him ?
Looks like a "dug-out" from the Boer War (or earlier) ?
Looks like a "dug-out" from the Boer War (or earlier) ?
Dug-out indeed, and serving well before the Boer War[s] ... b. 1855, d. 1924.
* Originally Scots Gds, Egypt Medal 1882 with Tel el Kebir bar as C/Sgt [Regtl No. 2972], later to 4th Bn. Royal Fusiliers as RQMS and Sergeant Major [1889]. In 1903 commissioned QM (Hon Capt) 4th (V) Bn Royal Fusiliers, retd 1907. Recalled to colours Aug 1914 as Temp QM & Hon Capt in Carmarthenshire Bn of Welch Army Corps. Dec 1915 transferred to General List. Home Service in various Ordnance Depot appointments and on 19 Oct 1917 transferred to School of Military Aeronautics, Reading, as Equipment Officer 3rd Class, RFC [= Capt]. Subsequently on 1 Apr 1918 transferred to RAF, transferred to Unemployed List 31 Oct 1919 [oooh, my birth date!].
"As at 17 Nov 14 he had 22 years and 4 months previous service in the Regular Army [in non-commissioned ranks]", so I assume he joined somewhere around 1870. The numbers don't quite seem to add up from that statement, though.
* The above from Army Records, letter dated 10 Oct 1988. As you can see, I instigated some research on the family after coming into possession of that photo [and their medals] after my father died.
Last edited by MPN11; 28th Feb 2016 at 14:47. Reason: Format
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Just to expand a bit on the Boomerang...
As mentioned by Fareastdriver, it did indeed share the same bloodline as the Texan/Harvard trainers so well remembered by Danny and others.
What I didn't know until a little earlier this evening was that the Boomerang was designed by an Austrian Jew by the name of Fred David.
He'd arrived in Australia as a refugee from Europe and on the outbreak of war, was promptly interned as an enemy alien.
Somehow, he came to the notice of Lawrence Wackett, the head of CAC (Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) which had been manufacturing the Wirraway.
He'd apparently previously worked for Heinkel in pre-war Germany as well as Mitsubishi and Aichi in Japan.
Two aircraft, in particular, that he'd been involved with were the Heinkel 112 fighter (said by many, including the late Eric 'Winkle' Brown, to have been superior to the Me109).
The other one of note was the Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero'.
Thus, he had a pretty fair understanding of advanced fighter design.
Now, at that stage of the war, Australia had nothing capable of air defence except the Wirraway trainer, armed with two forward-firing (plus one cupola mounted) .303s.
Naturally, this was causing not a little anxiety as, in 1941, it was becoming increasingly apparent that Japan was shortly to enter the war in a big way.
We needed something - and quick!
So, Lawrie (Wackett), Fred (Davis) and the boys had a bit of a rummage around in the shed.
Well, we could turn out NA16 parts and General Motors-Holdens were by then producing P&W 1830s for the Beaufort program, so...
Fred Davis took his pencil from behind his ear, sat down and came up with his concept for a small, fast and highly manoeuvrable fighter that would stand a chance against the Zero.
As an aside, to show how desperate things were down here, on the subject of armament for it, at the time we had, suitable for aircraft,
only .303 machine guns.
However... an airman returning from the North Africa campaign had brought home a souvenir - a British Hispano-Suiza 20mm cannon.
This was grabbed, locally reverse engineered and... Voila! - something nice to fit into the wings.
What turned out to be the CA12 Boomerang was deemed to be pretty good by the standards of the day, except...
It wasn't quite fast enough and wouldn't perform adequately at altitudes much over 15,000ft.
Much midnight oil was being burned to improve these aspects of its performance, when...
Along came the Cavalry!! - the Yanks had arrived, with all their goodies!
So, the muscly and powerfully-armed little Boomerang went on to perform very creditably in other roles - and the rest, as they say...
Oh dear, Danny, we got side-tracked once again.
.
As mentioned by Fareastdriver, it did indeed share the same bloodline as the Texan/Harvard trainers so well remembered by Danny and others.
What I didn't know until a little earlier this evening was that the Boomerang was designed by an Austrian Jew by the name of Fred David.
He'd arrived in Australia as a refugee from Europe and on the outbreak of war, was promptly interned as an enemy alien.
Somehow, he came to the notice of Lawrence Wackett, the head of CAC (Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) which had been manufacturing the Wirraway.
He'd apparently previously worked for Heinkel in pre-war Germany as well as Mitsubishi and Aichi in Japan.
Two aircraft, in particular, that he'd been involved with were the Heinkel 112 fighter (said by many, including the late Eric 'Winkle' Brown, to have been superior to the Me109).
The other one of note was the Mitsubishi A6M 'Zero'.
Thus, he had a pretty fair understanding of advanced fighter design.
Now, at that stage of the war, Australia had nothing capable of air defence except the Wirraway trainer, armed with two forward-firing (plus one cupola mounted) .303s.
Naturally, this was causing not a little anxiety as, in 1941, it was becoming increasingly apparent that Japan was shortly to enter the war in a big way.
We needed something - and quick!
So, Lawrie (Wackett), Fred (Davis) and the boys had a bit of a rummage around in the shed.
Well, we could turn out NA16 parts and General Motors-Holdens were by then producing P&W 1830s for the Beaufort program, so...
Fred Davis took his pencil from behind his ear, sat down and came up with his concept for a small, fast and highly manoeuvrable fighter that would stand a chance against the Zero.
As an aside, to show how desperate things were down here, on the subject of armament for it, at the time we had, suitable for aircraft,
only .303 machine guns.
However... an airman returning from the North Africa campaign had brought home a souvenir - a British Hispano-Suiza 20mm cannon.
This was grabbed, locally reverse engineered and... Voila! - something nice to fit into the wings.
What turned out to be the CA12 Boomerang was deemed to be pretty good by the standards of the day, except...
It wasn't quite fast enough and wouldn't perform adequately at altitudes much over 15,000ft.
Much midnight oil was being burned to improve these aspects of its performance, when...
Along came the Cavalry!! - the Yanks had arrived, with all their goodies!
So, the muscly and powerfully-armed little Boomerang went on to perform very creditably in other roles - and the rest, as they say...
Oh dear, Danny, we got side-tracked once again.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 28th Feb 2016 at 17:53.
....... great account . .. . suppose Matt Denning knows the Fred David story, Matt, the all time Boomer source of lore, legend and how to build one up from many components.
(Took Matt years, starting in his youth . . but in the end he did it and now flies the one Temora acquired from him) In my youth in Canberra, one AIRCDRE Lloyd Davies, RAAF ret'd . .. . gave me some photo prints from his archive. The one of a Boomerang has written on the back .. 'Ground-looping little bastard'.
. . . and a favourite wartime shot . . . .. Alf Clare flying Sinbad 11 .. . .
AWM caption : Mareeba, Qld. 1944-03-15. "White Feller's Boomerang" in flight. An Australian-built CAC Boomerang fighter aircraft coded BF-S (serial no. A46-126) nicknamed "Sinbad II" of No. 5 (Tactical Reconnaissance) Squadron RAAF, piloted by 402769 Flight Lieutenant A. W. B. Clare of Newcastle, NSW.
(Took Matt years, starting in his youth . . but in the end he did it and now flies the one Temora acquired from him) In my youth in Canberra, one AIRCDRE Lloyd Davies, RAAF ret'd . .. . gave me some photo prints from his archive. The one of a Boomerang has written on the back .. 'Ground-looping little bastard'.
. . . and a favourite wartime shot . . . .. Alf Clare flying Sinbad 11 .. . .
AWM caption : Mareeba, Qld. 1944-03-15. "White Feller's Boomerang" in flight. An Australian-built CAC Boomerang fighter aircraft coded BF-S (serial no. A46-126) nicknamed "Sinbad II" of No. 5 (Tactical Reconnaissance) Squadron RAAF, piloted by 402769 Flight Lieutenant A. W. B. Clare of Newcastle, NSW.
Last edited by Fantome; 28th Feb 2016 at 17:30.
written on the back .. 'Ground-looping little bastard'.
I can still recall seeing this one at Chino around 1993 - I got wildly excited, having no idea that there were any (at that time) flying Boomerang restorations, but my three fellow crew members, ALL Australians, were not only bemused by my jumping up and down but didn't know what a Boomerang was!
Lynette Zuccolli generously donated this Boomerang to the Army Aviation Museum at Oakey in 2007.
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Close Relations.
Fantome and Dora-9,
Inherited that from the AT6A/Harvard !
Beautiful ones, too - the first (I presume on takeoff) - why not a bit of flap to help ?
The second: I never saw "faired-in" exhaust pipes like that on any other aircraft. Clearly to reduce drag (and I'd think, as a bonus, some cockpit heating, but that might be unwelcome low level in summer).
Reading the Wiki entry, came across:
and sat up with a jerk ! (never heard of it - YLSNED). Followed-up, and came to:
on which I spent 70 not very happy hours (cf my Post p.119 #2367).
Danny.
...'Ground-looping little bastard'...
...gave me some photo prints from his archive...
The second: I never saw "faired-in" exhaust pipes like that on any other aircraft. Clearly to reduce drag (and I'd think, as a bonus, some cockpit heating, but that might be unwelcome low level in summer).
Reading the Wiki entry, came across:
....Aircraft of comparable role, configuration and era.....Vultee P-66 Vanguard...
...Related development....Vultee BT-13 Valiant...
Danny.
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Things are not always what they seem.
Brian 48nav (your #8237),
For a couple of days I have been mulling over your mild "rant", particularly your:
You were fully entitled to your "rant" ! For this was unfair, unpleasant, uncalled for, and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
It shows that some of our members have no conception of the nature of military service. In war, I've often said that: "we each had to fight the war we were given" - there was no choice. So it is, and always be, in military service, even in peace. It may be that you serve your entire time and never hear a shot fired in anger, while someone five or ten years younger (or older) has heard all too much ! But that is "the luck of the draw", nothing more.
In my own case, on leaving OTU in '42, I might have stayed in the UK, gone into Fighter Command and spent my time on "sweeps" over France and the Low Counties, basically looking for trouble - and usually finding it. Or (more likely), I might have been twin-converted and been switched across into Bomber Command, in which case my survival (with nearly three years of operations ahead) would have been more than doubtful.
Instead I was sent out to India. At the time (mid-'42) the colonial empires in SE Asia were falling like ninepins to the all-conquering Japanese; there was no confidence that lightly defended India would fare any better. We were generally thought to be on a one-way trip, just to be a delaying force, buying time to allow as many of the white civil population to get away as possible. Our fate was to be death or imprisonment in the hands of the Japanese (which in many cases amounted to the same thing).
As we know now, it didn't happen. The line was held (but it was a "damn'd close-run thing"). Then for two years we had the nearest thing to risk-free operations imaginable in the VVs. Why the Japanese Army Commanders in Burma didn't use their "Oscars" to wipe us out (which they could easily have done) we'll never know. Perhaps their book said that they were supplied "for Army Co-operation duties" - and the Generals never raised their eyes to the skies.
"Luck of the draw !"
Danny.
For a couple of days I have been mulling over your mild "rant", particularly your:
...my age was displayed. Then under 'ATC Issues' another poster disagreed with my opinion and called me a coffin-dodger...
It shows that some of our members have no conception of the nature of military service. In war, I've often said that: "we each had to fight the war we were given" - there was no choice. So it is, and always be, in military service, even in peace. It may be that you serve your entire time and never hear a shot fired in anger, while someone five or ten years younger (or older) has heard all too much ! But that is "the luck of the draw", nothing more.
In my own case, on leaving OTU in '42, I might have stayed in the UK, gone into Fighter Command and spent my time on "sweeps" over France and the Low Counties, basically looking for trouble - and usually finding it. Or (more likely), I might have been twin-converted and been switched across into Bomber Command, in which case my survival (with nearly three years of operations ahead) would have been more than doubtful.
Instead I was sent out to India. At the time (mid-'42) the colonial empires in SE Asia were falling like ninepins to the all-conquering Japanese; there was no confidence that lightly defended India would fare any better. We were generally thought to be on a one-way trip, just to be a delaying force, buying time to allow as many of the white civil population to get away as possible. Our fate was to be death or imprisonment in the hands of the Japanese (which in many cases amounted to the same thing).
As we know now, it didn't happen. The line was held (but it was a "damn'd close-run thing"). Then for two years we had the nearest thing to risk-free operations imaginable in the VVs. Why the Japanese Army Commanders in Burma didn't use their "Oscars" to wipe us out (which they could easily have done) we'll never know. Perhaps their book said that they were supplied "for Army Co-operation duties" - and the Generals never raised their eyes to the skies.
"Luck of the draw !"
Danny.
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Is it - or isn't it ?
Just happened to come across a reference to the "Spitfire" Mk.26b, of which I'd never previously heard.
Looked-up:
PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page Spitfire Mk 26 - real or not real?
There are 8 pages of it; look at Page 3, #54 and #55, for some good videos.
Remarkably similar to the real thing !
Danny.
Looked-up:
PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page Spitfire Mk 26 - real or not real?
There are 8 pages of it; look at Page 3, #54 and #55, for some good videos.
Remarkably similar to the real thing !
Danny.
'Luck of the Draw' would make a good title for your memoir Danny.
Also what the late Ted Sly called his great read (92 East India Sqn in North Africa where he and Nevil Duke became lifelong mates)
Also what the late Ted Sly called his great read (92 East India Sqn in North Africa where he and Nevil Duke became lifelong mates)