MoD fury as Brown wields axe
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The power of peaceful protest is well proven, which is why dictatorships are so afraid of the interweb, but may I offer a word of warning?
I laud the sentiment and intent which I share fully, and I acknowledge humbly the pain and anger of those who have lost relatives and friends as well as colleagues, but we must be extarordinarily careful that this does not backfire. May I draw our attention to the Principles of War? The undeniable success of the Arrse NIMBY campaign relied on a single, clear, achievable aim. The Coppers' cry was not open to misinterpretation. What exactly is this protest saying?
What is the desired outcome in terms of influencing the opposing forces? Who, in fact, are they? If the politicians are guilty of failing to provide the resources and taking our professionalism, can do attitude and sacrifice for granted, then our senior officers are guilty of complicity in admiring the Emperor's New Clothes. Please do not forget that the politicians and the politicised seniors are not capable of feeling guilt or remorse (only embarrassment). Before we undermine the credibility of those rare few who actually do care more about their people than their Knighthoods or future directorships, let us be absolutely sure of avoiding unintended consequences.
We will need planning, leadership, and careful co-ordination between all the disparate supporters and we need the message to be clear, simple and unassailable. I know, Chappie, that you are well aware of all this, but it needs to be said.
I suggest that the elephant is too big to eat all at once. Over a decade of neglect cannot be reversed overnight. The politicians could ignore us as they did the very large Liberty and Livelihood marches. A good turnout is, in itself, not enough. Please do not forget that there are those within politics and the media who will twist this for their own ends.
Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA whose professed aim is
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner.
Good Luck!
I laud the sentiment and intent which I share fully, and I acknowledge humbly the pain and anger of those who have lost relatives and friends as well as colleagues, but we must be extarordinarily careful that this does not backfire. May I draw our attention to the Principles of War? The undeniable success of the Arrse NIMBY campaign relied on a single, clear, achievable aim. The Coppers' cry was not open to misinterpretation. What exactly is this protest saying?
What is the desired outcome in terms of influencing the opposing forces? Who, in fact, are they? If the politicians are guilty of failing to provide the resources and taking our professionalism, can do attitude and sacrifice for granted, then our senior officers are guilty of complicity in admiring the Emperor's New Clothes. Please do not forget that the politicians and the politicised seniors are not capable of feeling guilt or remorse (only embarrassment). Before we undermine the credibility of those rare few who actually do care more about their people than their Knighthoods or future directorships, let us be absolutely sure of avoiding unintended consequences.
We will need planning, leadership, and careful co-ordination between all the disparate supporters and we need the message to be clear, simple and unassailable. I know, Chappie, that you are well aware of all this, but it needs to be said.
I suggest that the elephant is too big to eat all at once. Over a decade of neglect cannot be reversed overnight. The politicians could ignore us as they did the very large Liberty and Livelihood marches. A good turnout is, in itself, not enough. Please do not forget that there are those within politics and the media who will twist this for their own ends.
Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA whose professed aim is
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner.
Good Luck!
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"What have the Romans ever done for us..."
fawkes,
That may be so, but what have they actually done since they're formation. If they were taking a pro-active approach and achieving results, I suggest that this thread would not have been started in the first place.
I'm all for UKNDA taking this under they're wing and organising it, but untill they stop just sitting around talking about it in a Monty Python fashion, it has been taken on by people like chappie who are in the position, and kindly willing, to organise it.
Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA... ...They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner.
I'm all for UKNDA taking this under they're wing and organising it, but untill they stop just sitting around talking about it in a Monty Python fashion, it has been taken on by people like chappie who are in the position, and kindly willing, to organise it.
fawkes wrote:
Sounds cushtie, but the input of their "RAF Advisor" at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307123
left me underwhelmed I'm afraid. Of course one swallow etc etc, but as I understand it UKNDA sees itself as a pro MOD lobby to oppose and/or restore defence cuts. The title of this thread is "MOD fury as Brown wields axe", but the mood of the thread seems to be one of fury at the MOD as much as at Brown. As has been said we need a clear aim for the campaign, and one along the lines of the supposed UKNDA philosophy above would fit neatly. Too neatly perhaps, for stuffing more money into the maw of the MOD beast would do little to help the Armed Forces IMHO, but "Reform the MOD and restore the cuts" neither trips off the tongue nor would be easily understood. A dilemma, or am I missing the big picture?
Please can I urge you to get in touch with the UKNDA whose professed aim is
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner
the non political highlighting of the pressing need for proper resources to be put into the Defence of the Realm. They have a committee structure and existing dialogue with Government and the MoD, together with media savvy and a sufficient standing to be able to unite veterans, families, industry, and serving personnel under the one banner
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=307123
left me underwhelmed I'm afraid. Of course one swallow etc etc, but as I understand it UKNDA sees itself as a pro MOD lobby to oppose and/or restore defence cuts. The title of this thread is "MOD fury as Brown wields axe", but the mood of the thread seems to be one of fury at the MOD as much as at Brown. As has been said we need a clear aim for the campaign, and one along the lines of the supposed UKNDA philosophy above would fit neatly. Too neatly perhaps, for stuffing more money into the maw of the MOD beast would do little to help the Armed Forces IMHO, but "Reform the MOD and restore the cuts" neither trips off the tongue nor would be easily understood. A dilemma, or am I missing the big picture?
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UKNDA
I suggest a few of you look at the UKNDA link. They are doing a good job of putting the Armed Forces point of view across.
http://www.uknda.org/
http://www.uknda.org/
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WHAT DOES THE UKNDA PROPOSE?
We urge politicians of all parties and persuasions to support an immediate and sustained real increase in the percentage of GDP allocated annually for ”Defence and the Armed Forces” to at least 3%; this would represent an increase of 35-40% over present levels of funding.
We urge politicians of all parties and persuasions to support an immediate and sustained real increase in the percentage of GDP allocated annually for ”Defence and the Armed Forces” to at least 3%; this would represent an increase of 35-40% over present levels of funding.
Whats next, a strongly worded letter? Admittedly, I have only had a quick look through the site, but all I can see is a list of the RAF's qualities and importance in the world signed by a list of high ranking ex-brass. I tried my best to find a 'Here's what we achieved so far' section, but unfortunately it was to no avail.
Respect where respect is due to the chaps who have set this is up as I'm sure it plays an important political role and they have spoken out for something the feel passionately about, but I still feel they are not addressing the problems outlined in this thread.
And their statement above reminds me of some of the management bull
talk that, it has been suggested here, may be the cause of many of the problems.Join Date: Jun 2000
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Military Unions
This is the closest anything comes to being a military union and whilst I don't agree with the politics behind most unions, being far right of Ghengis Khan myself, I do agree with the principle of them. They are the ONLY unified voice that we have at the moment. How many people have contributed to this thread and how many members do the UKNDA have? We all support the same ideal, lets not have dispute amongst the ranks already and keep the common aim in view! (Sorry to slip into management speak there, never know one day I may get promoted!)
Most civvies would pay at least £5 per month to be part of one. With annual membership of only £12 it is a bargain. Albeit they are a fledgling organisation with out any teeth yet and I am not sure how far they would go to support you in any dispute with the MOD.
To quote the website:
It is still a bargain though, lets face it we aren't poor people...
Most civvies would pay at least £5 per month to be part of one. With annual membership of only £12 it is a bargain. Albeit they are a fledgling organisation with out any teeth yet and I am not sure how far they would go to support you in any dispute with the MOD.
To quote the website:
Ten Commandments for the UKNDA:
1. Maintain the AIM. A tried and tested military maxim meaning that, in all that you do, never forget what is your main aim – what it is you seek to achieve. For the UKNDA our purpose is:
2. Work as a Team. Working together is far more effective than individuals working alone.
3. The Task, the Team, the Individual. This is the ideal arrangement. Always remember the task in hand. Work together – but remember always that the Individual is important.
4. Co-operate. No inter-service squabbling – it is entirely counter productive.
5. Be Positive. Onwards and upwards.
6. Be Inventive. Observe the masses and do the opposite.
7. Be Pro-active. Seize the initiative. Don’t wait for things to happen – MAKE them happen.
8. Be Persistent. When bashing your head against a seemingly unbreakable brick wall, persevere. At least you’ll loosen a few bricks, and, with perseverance, the wall will fall down (though you may acquire a headache on the way). (With apologies to the late Admiral of the Fleet Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope – then better known as “ABC” whose saying I have plagiarised)
9. LISTEN to others – take wise counsel.
And finally – and above all – as Sir Winston Churchill said when asked what was the secret of success:
10. “NEVER GIVE UP!”
...
John Muxworthy
Cdr, RN CEO UKNDA Ltd
1. Maintain the AIM. A tried and tested military maxim meaning that, in all that you do, never forget what is your main aim – what it is you seek to achieve. For the UKNDA our purpose is:
To campaign for sufficient appropriate and fully funded Armed Forces that the Nation needs to defend effectively this country, its people, their security and
vital interests wherever they may be.2. Work as a Team. Working together is far more effective than individuals working alone.
3. The Task, the Team, the Individual. This is the ideal arrangement. Always remember the task in hand. Work together – but remember always that the Individual is important.
4. Co-operate. No inter-service squabbling – it is entirely counter productive.
5. Be Positive. Onwards and upwards.
6. Be Inventive. Observe the masses and do the opposite.
7. Be Pro-active. Seize the initiative. Don’t wait for things to happen – MAKE them happen.
8. Be Persistent. When bashing your head against a seemingly unbreakable brick wall, persevere. At least you’ll loosen a few bricks, and, with perseverance, the wall will fall down (though you may acquire a headache on the way). (With apologies to the late Admiral of the Fleet Viscount Cunningham of Hyndhope – then better known as “ABC” whose saying I have plagiarised)
9. LISTEN to others – take wise counsel.
And finally – and above all – as Sir Winston Churchill said when asked what was the secret of success:
10. “NEVER GIVE UP!”
...
John Muxworthy
Cdr, RN CEO UKNDA Ltd
Last edited by nav attacking; 20th Feb 2008 at 19:33. Reason: Extra Info
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One bit of bother I see is that without a very specific (and possibly simply stated) definition of a goal, any such march will be insiduously misrepresented by the salacious media as a forces "anti-war" outing.
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In theory I have no problem with the UKNDA, their principles are sound. And you are correct, £12 is a small amount to pay to be supoorted in a time of need, or indeed to know that others around me may be supported at such a time.
However I still fail to see what support they are offering. They're ten commandments, whilst at first glance appear to be exactly the qualities one would expect from a military 'union', on closer inspection they appear to be providing a, very detailed I must admit, account of the short-falls within HM Armed Forces along with a list of management/leadership 'buzz' words.
The day the UKNDA are
and
enough to make me sit up and say, 'well-done lads' for the first time, is the day I will quite gladly sign a cheque.
Untill then, I will watch with mixed feelings of admiration and scepticism.
However I still fail to see what support they are offering. They're ten commandments, whilst at first glance appear to be exactly the qualities one would expect from a military 'union', on closer inspection they appear to be providing a, very detailed I must admit, account of the short-falls within HM Armed Forces along with a list of management/leadership 'buzz' words.
The day the UKNDA are
5. Positive
6. Inventive
7. Pro-active
Untill then, I will watch with mixed feelings of admiration and scepticism.
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Much as I hate them, the only way of success in something like this is to court the press into whipping up a frenzy of public support.
The UKNDA look to be a singularly unimpressive lot. I know there aren't serving officers in there for good reason, but the retired lot of 'front line' advisors are hardly world beaters. It looks Navy centric (read the mission statement first line) has no RAF players with any track record and Bob Stewart is the only army guy with a profile and a good reputation. Take away the 'patrons' who are clearly letterhead names, then you don't have a lot of clout left. As for the security advisor, Professor Medhurst, didn't we just jail a Flt Lt for being a walt....Read into this guys CV and his credibility collapses-full professor you must be having a laugh!
A real life Jack Ryan!
So, good luck all, 100% behind you with the ideas, just think the reality will be very difficult to achieve.
The UKNDA look to be a singularly unimpressive lot. I know there aren't serving officers in there for good reason, but the retired lot of 'front line' advisors are hardly world beaters. It looks Navy centric (read the mission statement first line) has no RAF players with any track record and Bob Stewart is the only army guy with a profile and a good reputation. Take away the 'patrons' who are clearly letterhead names, then you don't have a lot of clout left. As for the security advisor, Professor Medhurst, didn't we just jail a Flt Lt for being a walt....Read into this guys CV and his credibility collapses-full professor you must be having a laugh!
A real life Jack Ryan!So, good luck all, 100% behind you with the ideas, just think the reality will be very difficult to achieve.
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The NDA have an interesting and focussed role, they seem to be trying to establish themselves in a think-tank and lobbying role. Certainly a key stakeholder in this sort of thing.
Remember the British Armed Forces Federation as well. www.baff.org.uk BAFF has the intricate task of gaining acceptability as a representative organisation - "not a union!" - in some ways similar to the Police Federation. In my view - from what I have heard - much progress has been made, but not a bridge-burning organisation! Having said that, I would hope that BAFF would support the principle of a profile-raising march that seeks to tackle key defence welfare issues. Likewise for the RBL although the "Broken Covenant" campaign is a radical departure from the past.
Any march would need to have clear, concise but comprehensive aims. The aims would need to be as simple as possible, attainable and acceptable to all opinions - traditionalist as well as modern. Easier said than done, but there are plenty of brains around here!
I would suggest 4 key messages or aims, possibly along the following lines:
1. Accountability. Time for a Royal Commission to take apart and study defence, and to have proper Parliamentary scrutiny (RUSI have made a similar point). Personnel need representation as well ie. the BAFF initiative, which should be formally acknowledged.
2. Proper Funding and Equipment. Defence spending to be matched to commitments: no "just in time", no more "jam tomorrow": kit to be supplied when it is needed, not when enough bad headlines accrue.
3. Welfare Provision. Suitable affordable FMQs, appropriate compensation for the wounded, military wards for the wounded, a fair deal for dependents from local authorities, access to affordable housing and schools, medical and dental etc.
4. Veterans' Care. No arguing - priority medical treatment (NHS or private) for long-term effect of Service injuries.
This march CAN happen! It WILL raise the profile of the issues we care about! It MAY change something! What is for certain is that doing NOTHING will achieve NOTHING!
Remember the British Armed Forces Federation as well. www.baff.org.uk BAFF has the intricate task of gaining acceptability as a representative organisation - "not a union!" - in some ways similar to the Police Federation. In my view - from what I have heard - much progress has been made, but not a bridge-burning organisation! Having said that, I would hope that BAFF would support the principle of a profile-raising march that seeks to tackle key defence welfare issues. Likewise for the RBL although the "Broken Covenant" campaign is a radical departure from the past.
Any march would need to have clear, concise but comprehensive aims. The aims would need to be as simple as possible, attainable and acceptable to all opinions - traditionalist as well as modern. Easier said than done, but there are plenty of brains around here!
I would suggest 4 key messages or aims, possibly along the following lines:
1. Accountability. Time for a Royal Commission to take apart and study defence, and to have proper Parliamentary scrutiny (RUSI have made a similar point). Personnel need representation as well ie. the BAFF initiative, which should be formally acknowledged.
2. Proper Funding and Equipment. Defence spending to be matched to commitments: no "just in time", no more "jam tomorrow": kit to be supplied when it is needed, not when enough bad headlines accrue.
3. Welfare Provision. Suitable affordable FMQs, appropriate compensation for the wounded, military wards for the wounded, a fair deal for dependents from local authorities, access to affordable housing and schools, medical and dental etc.
4. Veterans' Care. No arguing - priority medical treatment (NHS or private) for long-term effect of Service injuries.
This march CAN happen! It WILL raise the profile of the issues we care about! It MAY change something! What is for certain is that doing NOTHING will achieve NOTHING!
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Rudekid: spot on, both about whipping up the press (as I mentioned previously) and about how unimpressive the UKNDA lot really look. Great perhaps for political lobbying but I can't see any of them condoning, let alone taking part in, a march to whip up said press support.
JessTheDog:
1. Accountability - yes, great point!
2. Proper funding and equipment vs 'just not in time' - totally agree!
3. Welfare provision - a given in many other countries so why not in ours?
4. Priority care for veterans - sorry but not necessarily. Perhaps this aim needs rewording??
My take on this may be unpopular here but ... I think the same priority as everyone else, yes, but no one person should be given priority over any other one person when being treated on the NHS, simply on the basis of their work history.
(Why do I take that view? - we all took the Queen's shilling, knowing full well what might happen to us. It's an occupational hazard after all. However, I don't remember anything about it making us more deserving of treatment than those we undertook to defend.
A civvie with a manky arm sustained in a factory accident is just as entitled to prompt, effective and free treatment on the NHS as a squaddie who gets a manky arm from an IED in Iraq. Whether either gets it is of course a different matter.)
Appropriate treatment for people's injuries (e.g. lack of proper swimming pool at Headley Court) is a different matter altogether...
Spot on!
JessTheDog:
1. Accountability - yes, great point!
2. Proper funding and equipment vs 'just not in time' - totally agree!
3. Welfare provision - a given in many other countries so why not in ours?
4. Priority care for veterans - sorry but not necessarily. Perhaps this aim needs rewording??
My take on this may be unpopular here but ... I think the same priority as everyone else, yes, but no one person should be given priority over any other one person when being treated on the NHS, simply on the basis of their work history.
(Why do I take that view? - we all took the Queen's shilling, knowing full well what might happen to us. It's an occupational hazard after all. However, I don't remember anything about it making us more deserving of treatment than those we undertook to defend.
A civvie with a manky arm sustained in a factory accident is just as entitled to prompt, effective and free treatment on the NHS as a squaddie who gets a manky arm from an IED in Iraq. Whether either gets it is of course a different matter.)
Appropriate treatment for people's injuries (e.g. lack of proper swimming pool at Headley Court) is a different matter altogether...
This march CAN happen! It WILL raise the profile of the issues we care about! It MAY change something! What is for certain is that doing NOTHING will achieve NOTHING!
Jess the Dog, well said that man! I quite agree; keep the UKNDA, BAFF, MFATW and anyone else's agendas out of this. Your shopping list says it all for me, although the overall message needs to be soundbite clear, especially on the noisy, in the street, surrounded by participants displaying placards, outfits, petitions etc, piece to camera that is de rigeur on the tele news these days. Forces against the cuts, perhaps? The broken arrow seems a good symbol (sorry, can't remember whose suggestion). All this will achieve is to put defence, or the increasing lack of it, into the public eye. But that will be a big start for an ongoing campaign, in which visible presence is important. Given the embargo on serving personnel being in the march (well, officially) it is up to the veterans and NoK to turn out en masse. I just knew when Gordo invented us and that tin badge that he would rue the day. That day is nigh!
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I am sure that it will not take long to arrive at a consensus non-political message. There would be no bar in personnel participating in this non-political march, just as there is no barrier to participating in other marches or - as acknowledged by ministers - from joining the British Armed Forces Federation.
I was on the Save The Scottish Regiments march and noticed quite a few serving types. I was also (briefly) on the Stop the War march in 2003 whilst serving, largely by coincidence as I had to meet my missus who was participating!
I was on the Save The Scottish Regiments march and noticed quite a few serving types. I was also (briefly) on the Stop the War march in 2003 whilst serving, largely by coincidence as I had to meet my missus who was participating!
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I don't think anything to do with 'Covenants' should be used, there will be too many Indiana Jones quotes in the papers.
How about the famous Lord Kitchener poster with a meaningfull slogan underneath. Something like
"Britain
The armed forces needs your support
God save the armed forces, cause the Govt wont"
Or something a lot better than that effort
How about the famous Lord Kitchener poster with a meaningfull slogan underneath. Something like
"Britain
The armed forces needs your support
God save the armed forces, cause the Govt wont"
Or something a lot better than that effort
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Hi guys and gals, Im new to this forum but have been a member of Arrse for some time, we have also been talking about the need for a march, and it seems I have been volunteered to organise it, however from reading this thread it seems other people have had the same idea,
I don't want to be covering the same ground that has already been covered so perhaps we could pull resources, ideas etc, I was wondering how far your organising has gone??? if anyone has been doing some organising and wants to contact me then I'll be happy to give my private email or mob number
Thanks
Duncan
I don't want to be covering the same ground that has already been covered so perhaps we could pull resources, ideas etc, I was wondering how far your organising has gone??? if anyone has been doing some organising and wants to contact me then I'll be happy to give my private email or mob number
Thanks
Duncan