MoD fury as Brown wields axe

[Jackonicko]

I do wish someone would publish the statistics showing the strength in personnel, aerodromes and aircraft of the RAF on 1 Apr 1968, 78, 88, 98 and 2008......

Then we might really see how bad things are nowadays.

And by squadron, divided into categories -

AD, OS, Strike/Attack, Strike/Attack/Recce, Tac Recce, Strat Recce, Sigint, AEW, MR/ASW, tactical transport, strategic transport, tanker, VIP/liaison, SH, etc.

[BEagle]

Sounds like a job for a journo, eh Jacko?

BTW - did you ever produce the article for which you borrowed my slides last year?

[Phil_R]

I'm not sure I'd expect to see the same level of capability maintained now that was in 1988. If a very large threat has diminished to a much smaller one, one would expect the cash thus freed up to go to avoiding people dying of cancer, and that would seem reasonable.

While we don't live in that world, however, I would be quite interested to see
what the cost-to-capability ratio has been doing over that period.

P

[chappie]

people mentioned a petition, there is now a petition and now there is moaning. fine, you don't have to sign it. i have only tried to show support that's all. if you want to accept the situation as it is then fine, it's you that it affects.

tablet eraser, i did put the spiel out onto pprune for people to read, no one commented so i did make the effort.

to answer the query about being outside of the no10 remit and no notice taken then all i can say is the last petition that i did which was handed in with just under 3000 signatures calling for increased hercules safety was not a no10 one and along with putting the issue out into the public eye and alot of other work changes were made. a petition could be on a piece of scrap paper as long as the signatures are there and people support the cause then that's what you need.

this is going to be hard work and i am prepared for hard work and to spread the word and all the other work that is needed to do but if it's not wanted then fine i will not do it. the last thing i want to do is upset anyone...well you guys..the government and bean counters i really have no regard for. it would seem that i have upset more of you than actually managed to lend my support to you. if it's not wanted then consider it removed.



sorry for any offence i caused you. it was not my intention.
i shall sign off this thread and leave you be...

[Lima Juliet]

Jacko

Here are the figures that I got from a library book on the RAF...

Year /Personnel /Combat /Trg /Total Aircraft
1939 /174,000 /2600 /? /2600+?
1944 /1,186,000 /9035 /? /9035+?
1945 /1,079,000 /9200 /? /9200+?
1949 /219,000 /1251 /3000 /4251
1954 /261,000 /2127 /3086 /5213
1959 /175,000 /1051 /1790 /2841
1964 /138,000 /949 /1377 /2326
1969 /112,000 /723 /1015 /1738
1974 /99,000 /655 /750 /1405
1979 /85,500 /627 /776 /1403
1984 /93,500 /632 /839 /1471
1989 /93,000 /995 /622 /2874
1994 /70,000 /660 /440 /1100
1995 /70,000 /Options for Change/
1999 /52,000 /Front Line First/
2002 /48,000 /Strategic Defence Review/
2006 /42,000 /430 /430 /860
2008 /??,??? /??? /??? /???

??? = 2008 planning round not yet officially announced but there are strong rumours that there are to be aircrew establishment cuts (to match the actual aircrew figures - we can't train to fill the gaps left by those leaving!) and the mothballing of a number of several types. Should be announced in the next month or so...

I hope this helps

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

By the way the biggest cut in our combat capability has been Fast Jets we now have 1/2 as many Fast Jet Squadrons than we did in 1990 (something like 36 Sqns to now just 16!). The only increase in the past few years have been ISTAR and Support Helo - this is after all the war that we are presently fighting...

What we need is a modern day Lady Lucy Houston who, in 1931 donated £100,000 (about £5m today) to Supermarine, allowing them to win the Schneider Trophy in that year (which lead to the devlopment of the RR Merlin and the Spitfire). The Royal Air Force's entry for the 1931 race for the trophy was hindered by political opposition. On January 15, 1931, the Air Ministry refused a last minute request by the Royal Aero Club for funds for an entry. The Ministry also forbade the use of the aircraft that competed in the 1929 race; forbade RAF pilots who were trained to fly these seaplanes, to take part; and said that it would not police the race course in 1931 in the busy shipping lanes in the Solent.

In 1932 she offered to give £200,000 to strengthen the British army and navy. The National Government refused.

She put a large illuminated sign on her yacht saying: "DOWN WITH MACDONALD THE TRAITOR!". In a telegram to the Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald she said:

"I alone have dared to point out the dire need for air defence of London. You have muzzled others who have deplored this shameful neglect. You have treated my patriotic gesture with a contempt such as no other government would have been guilty of toward a patriot."



What an outstanding visionary and she may have saved the country in providing the ability to defend against the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain.

Now where did I put my "Down with Nu-Labour" illuminated sign

LJ

[RAF_SARGE]

Just signed Chappie's petition. Guess how many signatures so far, lots?



No 12! Just 12! Awful. Still as this is mainly an anonymous Forum, that is what I'd expect, lot's of talk, no balls. And don't bother replying to have a bleat if I've ruffled your poor feathers, do something positive, sign the petition.

Or are you all just like Brown, Blair and the other idiots? Full of hot air?

[Lima Juliet]

Unable due to QR J1012 - sorry. May get wife, family and friends to do it for me though.

[dunc0936]

Hi all, plans for the march are progressing well, and I have over the last few days had offers of help from some people who know what they are talking about ie, PR, Police PR relations etc, so will keep you all informed on that front,

I have suggested that Late July or early August as a good date, we need this to be planned well, get the right message across, so Labour spin doctors cannot pick any holes in it.

This is on Arrse as well as here, does anyone know if any other forums have picked it up??

I have been putting together some ideas for the message, once I have finished it, I'll post it so you can let me know what you think...... Remember all though, this is our money they are spending, without our taxes, there would be no government, so do not give up hope..... we should be able to have some say in how it is spent....


Duncan

[Chugalug2]

Well done Chappie, have just signed your petition. Ignore the knockers, at least you have stood up and done something, in the tradition of Lady Houston, and like her you are a patriot. The bleaters meanwhile will be still be dithering when it is all too late, rather like those who hoped the Nazis were nor really a threat. Idiots!

[tablet_eraser]

chappie,

I was not criticising you for starting a petition at all; far from it, I'm glad you did. I'll PM you with some specifics.

[MReyn24050]

chappie's petition

sorry for any offence i caused you. it was not my intention.
i shall sign off this thread and leave you be...

Please do not do that, I have signed your petition and as Chugalug2 states

Ignore the knockers, at least you have stood up and done something, in the tradition of Lady Houston, and like her you are a patriot

Mel

[Tigs2]

Signed

[S'land]

Signed (as a civvy who thinks our military are the best, but get the worst treatment).

[SirToppamHat]

Leon Jabachjabicz wrote:

2008 planning round not yet officially announced but there are strong rumours that there are to be aircrew establishment cuts (to match the actual aircrew figures - we can't train to fill the gaps left by those leaving!)

Surely this is nothing new?? In most areas of the Service(s), if you have a post gapped for long enough some numb-nuts will come along and say you have managed without so you don't need it! The problem is this is frequently being done with no consideration whatsoever of the actual impact of gapping on those who remain. We are a fighting force and fighting forces need to be slightly over-manned to allow for deployments and the like. We are rapidly approaching the point where our people will disappear for 4-6 mths only to find that their UK posts have been taken for savings!

I know of units that are continually under-manned, but move the gaps round so that they aren't visible to the choppers.

I do wonder what reception a modern day Bader would get to a statement that his Sqn was nonop due lack of spares ... probably find his Sqn stood-down and the guys all sent to the 'stan for 4 mths (after a bollocking for daring to suggest that anything is wrong)!

<<RANT ON>>
The other morning I was 'volunteered' to spend 2 and a half hrs discussing with fellow offrs and WOs whether the RAF is 'Agile, Adaptable and Capable'. One of a series of workships involving all ranks to let our very senior officers (2* and above) know what we need to do to try to make the RAF fit a description that has little to do with making us an effective fighting force, and everything to do with making us fit a description that was probably invented by some focus group because it sounds good. I despair. Whatever happened to flexibility being the key to Air Power?
<<RANT OFF>>

I am getting old!

STH

[RAF_SARGE]

Leon wrote:-

Unable due to QR J1012 - sorry. May get wife, family and friends to do it for me though.

"So why hide behind regs, please enlighten us to these rules and regulations."

[Lima Juliet]

QRJ 1012 covers a multitude of prohibitions regarding Servicemen and involvement in politics. Petitioning the Government is a form of lobbying that this QR prohibits - I guess it's one of the reasons we get X-factor in our pay.

I read the QR recently as someone asked me to stand for membership of the local Town Council - I can't do that either without becoming an Independant and getting permission from HQ Air.

Have a read Sarge, and you might see that we do not have many political rights at all. I guess some of this goes back to the New Model Army and the Civil War?

Bottom line for me is that I am not going to willfully contravene QRs whilst I still have a sense of duty to my country and even more so to my young family.

LJ

[RAF_SARGE]

Perhaps a good call after all Leon. Must do some reading Sunday . Isn't it perverse that we have to cover our arses rather than speak out when our crappy leaders hang our arses out all the time?

[RAF_SARGE]

Oh and yeah Pprune why order a personal title when it's gonna cost me money - get bent!

[tablet_eraser]

_In most areas of the Service(s), if you have a post gapped for long enough some numb-nuts will come along and say you have managed without so you don't need it!_

I understand that Naval 'procurement' has operated in that way for some years.