Nimrod Information
Guest
Posts: n/a
"The point is, you never know when you are going to need FDA. Give me the choice and I would take it every time. Suggesting to UOR FDA after service entry just serves to underline the inability of the RAF to demand proper funding to achieve decent aircraft protection."
Yep 100% agree in this ideal world these systems should be in place, i too have sat flying into Basrah with fully body armour on (the days before armour fits,glaring at the wescam screen in hope that you never see a flash from the ground). I guess the bottom line is to have permanaent fixtures in place costs money , with the MR2 fleet on a rundown and they are doing there best to provide these kind of makeshift protection features that is feasably possible (a balance of cost with practicality). I would like to think the MR4 will have permanant fixtures in place,wether or not the MR4 will do the same as the MR2 we will never know.
I think the basic line is things like this are expensive to modify and fit , do you think the user at present has this funds available to do it , we all think not, its down to goverment providing the best for the guys fighting and this government will not do that. They are the sole ones responsible for all and they have that duty of care, but when it comes to budgets and funding ... i need say no more
Yep 100% agree in this ideal world these systems should be in place, i too have sat flying into Basrah with fully body armour on (the days before armour fits,glaring at the wescam screen in hope that you never see a flash from the ground). I guess the bottom line is to have permanaent fixtures in place costs money , with the MR2 fleet on a rundown and they are doing there best to provide these kind of makeshift protection features that is feasably possible (a balance of cost with practicality). I would like to think the MR4 will have permanant fixtures in place,wether or not the MR4 will do the same as the MR2 we will never know.
I think the basic line is things like this are expensive to modify and fit , do you think the user at present has this funds available to do it , we all think not, its down to goverment providing the best for the guys fighting and this government will not do that. They are the sole ones responsible for all and they have that duty of care, but when it comes to budgets and funding ... i need say no more
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Somewhere between hope and despair
Age: 62
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PN,
Thanks for your informed thoughts. You confirmed my suspicion that the BOI could use any recent info considered relevant from the alleged incident of earlier this week. And if this did extend the BOI publication, one hopes that it would be accepted by all as beneficial (while recognising the need for urgency for the families) because new info could be pertinent in the absence of detailed info from the XV230 crash site, should there be any common themes between the 2 aircraft. I trust my text is suitably non-speculatory.
Thanks for your informed thoughts. You confirmed my suspicion that the BOI could use any recent info considered relevant from the alleged incident of earlier this week. And if this did extend the BOI publication, one hopes that it would be accepted by all as beneficial (while recognising the need for urgency for the families) because new info could be pertinent in the absence of detailed info from the XV230 crash site, should there be any common themes between the 2 aircraft. I trust my text is suitably non-speculatory.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hats off to crew of XV235
I have read the Incident report of XV235 Mayday on monday that performed an emergency landing and ground evacuation at Kandahar airfield.
There has been much criticism of the RAF CoC and Procedure in recent weeks. I just wanted to take this opportunity to publically acknowledge the cool professionalism of crew XV235, in a very scary situation. We should never lose sight of real bravery being performed on a daily basis in Iraq and Afg.
Well done fellas, for getting everyone on the ground in one piece, I hope you had a cool beer in hand, quick time.
There has been much criticism of the RAF CoC and Procedure in recent weeks. I just wanted to take this opportunity to publically acknowledge the cool professionalism of crew XV235, in a very scary situation. We should never lose sight of real bravery being performed on a daily basis in Iraq and Afg.
Well done fellas, for getting everyone on the ground in one piece, I hope you had a cool beer in hand, quick time.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Henley, Oxfordshire
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monday's Air Incident Report
A report on the incident, including the difficulties in raising a response to the Mayday call, is now on the TimesOnline website, along with the air incident report itself.
News report here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2839484.ece
air incident report here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2839607.ece
News report here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2839484.ece
air incident report here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2839607.ece
S_H
If incident reports are classified restricted or above then yes, it should be removed IMHO.
At least The Times, this time, has not published the names, ranks and telephone numbers of those involved this time.
If incident reports are classified restricted or above then yes, it should be removed IMHO.
At least The Times, this time, has not published the names, ranks and telephone numbers of those involved this time.
I thoroughly and unreservedly endorse Nigegilb's sentiments. Well done each and every one of XV235's crew. You obviously had no illusions about the risks involved in the duty for which you were tasked. With the courage and professionalism shown by all our Armed Forces in theatre you planned in detail how you would deal with what you hoped wouldn't happen. It did, and your response as a crew saved the day. What happens elsewhere as a result of mercifully only an incident rather than an accident is for the RAF higher command and the MOD. If they do not take this as a very belated wake up call then their negligence knows no bounds. As for yourselves I trust that you are now recovered to a place of cool beers that can be enjoyed with well earned fervour!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Henley, Oxfordshire
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIR online
Just an add to the TimesOnline link to the air incident report. As a result of a technical issue the second page wasn't there until 1230 so if you read it before then you might want to revisit.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: .
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It needs to be to determined if the law has been broken with regard to the release of information in this manner.
If it has, find the person(s) responsible, prosecute them, punish them and throw them out of the RAF.
At least the Times online had the common decency to remove the names this time.
If it has, find the person(s) responsible, prosecute them, punish them and throw them out of the RAF.
At least the Times online had the common decency to remove the names this time.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I too would wish to offer my sincere congratulations and relief to the crew involved in this latest incident. One can only guess at how they must have felt when this occurred and they have my utmost admiration for their professionalism in safely getting the aircraft on the ground.
On a different note, many of you will be aware of some of the stick I took earlier in this thread regarding my comments concerning the safety of modern airliners, and in particular my concerns about safety matters relating to the MRA4 aircraft.
In light of this latest incident, would those of you responsible care to re consider your opinions? After all, if the incident report is to be believed (and why shouldn't it be?) then this particular aircraft had been fitted recently with a new coupling, and this was the first occasion for AAR post fitting. How could it have gone so wrong??
So, MightyHunterAge, the wee short chap (MRA4 test pilot?) and all the others, who have been somewhat quiet since the incident, what do you think now? Would you honestly still be happy to fly in a Nimrod????
On a wider issue, the MR2 incidents add even further weight to the need for Bomb Bay and fuel tank protection, both on the existing MR2s but especially in MRA4 which will replace them. Has the RAF not learned anything from the tragedy of 230 and the very close calls of the other incidents? It seems to me, to be criminally negligent to simply ignore what has happened, and what is clearly still happening!
CAS.
Glenn, it is time for you to do the honourable thing Sir, and resign! You are a very nice chap, and you and I have met on several occasions, but the time has come for you to throw in your towel. But before you do that, there is one thing that you could do to retrieve some of your credibility and leave the RAF on 'a high'........GROUND ALL NIMRODS!
Yes, ground the entire fleet, then go along to Mr brown at No 10 and tell him what you have done, and why you have done it (because they are now unsafe) make a public statement to that effect, and then announce your resignation. That will be the bravest thing you could possibly do Sir, and would make you a true leader.
To all Nimrod crews, keep safe guys and girls and above all else, put yourselves first. Even as a retired Wg Cdr, I am thoroughly ashamed at the way the whole Nimrod fiasco is being handled, it is appalling. AOC 2 Gp should be hanging his head in shame, and be thanking God that this latest incident didn't end in another disaster. He too should consider his position.
I and my fellow Civilian Pilots salute your courage and commitment, I only wish that the hierarchy of this pathetic Air Force did so also.
The Winco
On a different note, many of you will be aware of some of the stick I took earlier in this thread regarding my comments concerning the safety of modern airliners, and in particular my concerns about safety matters relating to the MRA4 aircraft.
In light of this latest incident, would those of you responsible care to re consider your opinions? After all, if the incident report is to be believed (and why shouldn't it be?) then this particular aircraft had been fitted recently with a new coupling, and this was the first occasion for AAR post fitting. How could it have gone so wrong??
So, MightyHunterAge, the wee short chap (MRA4 test pilot?) and all the others, who have been somewhat quiet since the incident, what do you think now? Would you honestly still be happy to fly in a Nimrod????
On a wider issue, the MR2 incidents add even further weight to the need for Bomb Bay and fuel tank protection, both on the existing MR2s but especially in MRA4 which will replace them. Has the RAF not learned anything from the tragedy of 230 and the very close calls of the other incidents? It seems to me, to be criminally negligent to simply ignore what has happened, and what is clearly still happening!
CAS.
Glenn, it is time for you to do the honourable thing Sir, and resign! You are a very nice chap, and you and I have met on several occasions, but the time has come for you to throw in your towel. But before you do that, there is one thing that you could do to retrieve some of your credibility and leave the RAF on 'a high'........GROUND ALL NIMRODS!
Yes, ground the entire fleet, then go along to Mr brown at No 10 and tell him what you have done, and why you have done it (because they are now unsafe) make a public statement to that effect, and then announce your resignation. That will be the bravest thing you could possibly do Sir, and would make you a true leader.
To all Nimrod crews, keep safe guys and girls and above all else, put yourselves first. Even as a retired Wg Cdr, I am thoroughly ashamed at the way the whole Nimrod fiasco is being handled, it is appalling. AOC 2 Gp should be hanging his head in shame, and be thanking God that this latest incident didn't end in another disaster. He too should consider his position.
I and my fellow Civilian Pilots salute your courage and commitment, I only wish that the hierarchy of this pathetic Air Force did so also.
The Winco
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recognise the quiet bravery and professionalism that has been an enduring quality in the Royal Air Force over the years. Prior to the flight, the first since an FRS coupling change, the Captain and crew member had taken the time to locate the new coupling and obviously made a mental note of the possibility of its failure in flight. This cool, methodical approach in the planning of this mission gives a clue to the way Nimrod crews must be thinking.
The refuel was carried out IAW the revised procedure reducing the possibility of a pressure spike. The Carter pump was turned on after contact and fuel pressure did not exceed 35 psi. The fuel spray was spotted almost immediately. Almost as though the crew were expecting it. The breakaway and VFR descent carried out with speed but I can't help but imagine what the crew were going through in that descent. On landing the TAC crew smelled fuel and a ground evacuation was ordered.
20 minutes later an inspection was carried out, revealing that the bomb bay heating mixing chamber cladding was soaked with fuel, the fuel had even reached the roof of the bomb bay.
Of course the fuel ground testing procedures could not replicate the environmental conditions. It has never been able to.
We have reached a new low in the modern Royal Air Force. AoC 2Gp, CAS, send Nimrod crews up on a Wing and a Prayer. Our crews carry out missions expecting things to go wrong. How on earth did we get to this situation?
Please don't shoot the messenger. They must be very brave and very desperate to get the word out from the front line.
I salute you.
The refuel was carried out IAW the revised procedure reducing the possibility of a pressure spike. The Carter pump was turned on after contact and fuel pressure did not exceed 35 psi. The fuel spray was spotted almost immediately. Almost as though the crew were expecting it. The breakaway and VFR descent carried out with speed but I can't help but imagine what the crew were going through in that descent. On landing the TAC crew smelled fuel and a ground evacuation was ordered.
20 minutes later an inspection was carried out, revealing that the bomb bay heating mixing chamber cladding was soaked with fuel, the fuel had even reached the roof of the bomb bay.
Of course the fuel ground testing procedures could not replicate the environmental conditions. It has never been able to.
We have reached a new low in the modern Royal Air Force. AoC 2Gp, CAS, send Nimrod crews up on a Wing and a Prayer. Our crews carry out missions expecting things to go wrong. How on earth did we get to this situation?
Please don't shoot the messenger. They must be very brave and very desperate to get the word out from the front line.
I salute you.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: West of the UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XV235
Fattor Gator you certainly have a point ref the leak (IR) however, that is for the future, lets focus on the crews in theatre and at home and most importantly the fact that another crew could have just been lost!
Save your highly passionate words for making sure this does not happen again.
Save your highly passionate words for making sure this does not happen again.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: -
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2 arses need to be kicked very soundly here.
1. CAS
2. The w
nker behind this..
"The crew's log, leaked to the BBC, reported the bomb bay doors "to be wet with fuel".
I am as sick and tired of this constant stream of seditious whining, as I am the criminal incompetence of those in charge.
1. CAS
2. The w
nker behind this.."The crew's log, leaked to the BBC, reported the bomb bay doors "to be wet with fuel".
I am as sick and tired of this constant stream of seditious whining, as I am the criminal incompetence of those in charge.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Back in civilisation
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How can the CAS, AOC 2Gp and Stn Cdr seriously continue this path of wanton neglect. They must really not give a dam anymore, are they all apethetic and coasting along until they get their fat pension?
If that aircraft had been destroyed, god forbid, what do you think the response would be? Would they ground the fleet or would they just carry on as usual making all the same promises as they did before. How many aircraft have to be lost before something is done. I realy do not want to attend any more funerals of my friends.
If that aircraft had been destroyed, god forbid, what do you think the response would be? Would they ground the fleet or would they just carry on as usual making all the same promises as they did before. How many aircraft have to be lost before something is done. I realy do not want to attend any more funerals of my friends.
2 arses need to be kicked very soundly here.
1. The CAS should go before he is pushed. His position is untenable.
2. The fleet should be grounded, its job done as best it can be by others, at the very least until the BoI report is published and acted upon.
3. An independent inquiry be instituted immediately to urgently investigate Military Airworthiness Regulation in the UK, with a view to a total and fundamental reform of the system.
As to kicking the arses of those who have allowed this into the open, I can only say that I wish I was equipped with such moral courage. At the very least they may have saved the next crew detailed for AR, more likely they would have set in chain the means of turning around the destruction of the provision of RAF Flight Safety by the bean counters, uniformed and civilian, who have starved it of money. The Times which broke this story has a long record of revealing such logistical scandals, for it was they, was it not, who shone light on the ineptitude of supplying kit unfit for purpose to another British Expeditionary Force, in the Crimea? No doubt Victorian voices were raised then against them, though perhaps in a rather more genteel way!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 9th Nov 2007 at 17:53.