Save The Red Arrows - Sign the Petition
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Money
Just out of interest, what do the airshows themselves pay towards the cost of the Reds appearing?
Whilst I fully understand the debate of "if we scrap them, we could spend the money on X", I suspect if they went the
man in No 11 would not allow the money to be used where it is really needed, it would simply be diverted elsewhere and would just go looking for the next thing to scrap, BBMF maybe?
Whilst I fully understand the debate of "if we scrap them, we could spend the money on X", I suspect if they went the
man in No 11 would not allow the money to be used where it is really needed, it would simply be diverted elsewhere and would just go looking for the next thing to scrap, BBMF maybe?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Age: 82
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rudekid
You certainly picked an appropriate title. Your rudeness and childishness is matched by your ignorance.
But what the hell. Have it your way. Bin the Reds. They are after all just a load of idle, posing, pampered, shirkers avoiding operations to wallow in self-glorifying publicity. And the rest of the RAF, who do a proper job and of whom you are a shining example, would be glad to see the wasters go.
And you of course would know, wouldn't you?
The Labour government want to give the vote to 17 year olds! Roll on armageddon!
You certainly picked an appropriate title. Your rudeness and childishness is matched by your ignorance.
But what the hell. Have it your way. Bin the Reds. They are after all just a load of idle, posing, pampered, shirkers avoiding operations to wallow in self-glorifying publicity. And the rest of the RAF, who do a proper job and of whom you are a shining example, would be glad to see the wasters go.
And you of course would know, wouldn't you?
The Labour government want to give the vote to 17 year olds! Roll on armageddon!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clockwork Mouse
Maybe you should read my earlier posts chap.
Just to clarify for those too idle to read the full thread:
1. The Reds are arguably the best display team in the world. I love watching them.
2. I will be sorry to see them go.
3. I'm sure they work hard, but other people trying to justify their existence by spouting rubbish such as:
a: They've all done Ops, so they're all proven operational pilots with lots of op tours.
b: They justify their 'kudos' by having a disrupted home and social life.
c: They fly six to eight sorties a day.
If any of this is correct, I'd be glad to have my ignorance confirmed! Now you may see this as me picking holes in arguments, but I don't believe you win an argument by refusing to see fact. Not sure the present Govt believes that but....
If you can be bothered to look at the Red Arrows website you will see an awful lot of very qualified guys and capable operators who could be contributing to the front line more effectively, both Air and Groundcrew.
An awful lot of the RAF couldn't give a flying toss whether the Reds stay or go. Neither would an awful lot of the Army or Navy. If we have to make some cuts (and I appreciate this argument is more debatable vis-a-vis presentation) in order to ensure some additional front line capability, then I would see the Reds stop flying tomorrow.
When people are dying due to lack of equipment, it seems a little redundant to be arguing about the existence of an air display team. In an ideal world, everything would be affordable and be presented as having a value. However, in the real world of competing priorities, something has to give. The Reds have got to be at the lower end of that give list.
Whichever way you look at it it, the writing IS on the wall.
Rude, ignorant and childish...Did you write my AR?
Maybe you should read my earlier posts chap.
Just to clarify for those too idle to read the full thread:
1. The Reds are arguably the best display team in the world. I love watching them.
2. I will be sorry to see them go.
3. I'm sure they work hard, but other people trying to justify their existence by spouting rubbish such as:
a: They've all done Ops, so they're all proven operational pilots with lots of op tours.
b: They justify their 'kudos' by having a disrupted home and social life.
c: They fly six to eight sorties a day.
If any of this is correct, I'd be glad to have my ignorance confirmed! Now you may see this as me picking holes in arguments, but I don't believe you win an argument by refusing to see fact. Not sure the present Govt believes that but....
If you can be bothered to look at the Red Arrows website you will see an awful lot of very qualified guys and capable operators who could be contributing to the front line more effectively, both Air and Groundcrew.
An awful lot of the RAF couldn't give a flying toss whether the Reds stay or go. Neither would an awful lot of the Army or Navy. If we have to make some cuts (and I appreciate this argument is more debatable vis-a-vis presentation) in order to ensure some additional front line capability, then I would see the Reds stop flying tomorrow.
When people are dying due to lack of equipment, it seems a little redundant to be arguing about the existence of an air display team. In an ideal world, everything would be affordable and be presented as having a value. However, in the real world of competing priorities, something has to give. The Reds have got to be at the lower end of that give list.
Whichever way you look at it it, the writing IS on the wall.
Rude, ignorant and childish...Did you write my AR?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rudekid,
I hate to say this, but you are talking utter tripe!
1. I invite you to come to Scampton, on ANY day of the week and watch to 6 or 8 slots flown by the Red Arrows above the base. Clearly your knowledge of aviation is somewhat lacking, as if you knew anything about them, you would see that 'their' slots are clearly promulgated in Danger Area 313 (the big chunk of airspace over Scampton if you didn't know) I am not going to sit here and argue with you about it, you are wrong - endex.
2. Thanks for your comments about being over qualified for the Reds - but if only! Again, if you knew anything about the selection system, you will see that there is a distinct lack of AWACS aircrew in the Arrows! Indeed, you might have noticed that there is a bit of a lack of any 'heavy aircraft' pilots. Why do you think that is? Do you think its perhaps a 'fast jet' club eh? Or maybe its 'who you know' type of thing? Sadly not. It is a fact that the 'best' pilots go to fast jets (soory fellow heavy drivers) Now I would say that its all the ugly ones that go fast jet, and the suave, sophisticated, good-looking and debonair ones (such as myself) go to heavies! But it isn't true. They are there because they are the best - endex
3. The comments by 3.14 are absolutely spot-on 100%, and I would just point out that you are only proving to the rest of us that you know pretty much 'diddly squat' about military avaition, the RAF and aircraft and aircrew in general.
As I have tried to explain to you, they have ALL completed operational tours, that is a fact, and yet you seem to isbelieve that for some obscure reason - why? The current Boss has just finished an 'OPERATIONAL TOUR' on the GR4 Tornado. What is your problem?
If you don't like them, then fine. But please don't spout rubbish on here displaying your ignorance and lack of understanding.
Clockwork Mouse - guess Rudechild will be voting soon then eh?
Kind regards
TSM
I hate to say this, but you are talking utter tripe!
1. I invite you to come to Scampton, on ANY day of the week and watch to 6 or 8 slots flown by the Red Arrows above the base. Clearly your knowledge of aviation is somewhat lacking, as if you knew anything about them, you would see that 'their' slots are clearly promulgated in Danger Area 313 (the big chunk of airspace over Scampton if you didn't know) I am not going to sit here and argue with you about it, you are wrong - endex.
2. Thanks for your comments about being over qualified for the Reds - but if only! Again, if you knew anything about the selection system, you will see that there is a distinct lack of AWACS aircrew in the Arrows! Indeed, you might have noticed that there is a bit of a lack of any 'heavy aircraft' pilots. Why do you think that is? Do you think its perhaps a 'fast jet' club eh? Or maybe its 'who you know' type of thing? Sadly not. It is a fact that the 'best' pilots go to fast jets (soory fellow heavy drivers) Now I would say that its all the ugly ones that go fast jet, and the suave, sophisticated, good-looking and debonair ones (such as myself) go to heavies! But it isn't true. They are there because they are the best - endex
3. The comments by 3.14 are absolutely spot-on 100%, and I would just point out that you are only proving to the rest of us that you know pretty much 'diddly squat' about military avaition, the RAF and aircraft and aircrew in general.
As I have tried to explain to you, they have ALL completed operational tours, that is a fact, and yet you seem to isbelieve that for some obscure reason - why? The current Boss has just finished an 'OPERATIONAL TOUR' on the GR4 Tornado. What is your problem?
If you don't like them, then fine. But please don't spout rubbish on here displaying your ignorance and lack of understanding.
Clockwork Mouse - guess Rudechild will be voting soon then eh?
Kind regards
TSM
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSM
The original point, which I repeat considering your obvious inability to read the earlier parts of the thread, was this:
Point: The Reds have all done "Ops", made by 3.14.
Answer: Er. No they haven't.
Now, I'm not arguing that they haven't all done a tour on a FJ Sqn, but then that's because, THAT WASN'T THE ARGUMENT.
I believe you posted the following:
Now, unless I'm missing something, that appears to be your emphasis on the ALL. You're wrong.
3.14, with whom you agree 100%, believes the following:
Interesting statement that don't you think? Wonder how the SH fleet feels about that comment, or the C130 fleet, or TCW, the Nimrod Fleet, TACATC, RAF Regt, 16 AAB or 42 Cdo just to name a few.
I remain interested as to how many sorties a day the pilots fly. As an AWACS guy, you may realise that 8 slots booked into R313, doesn't necessarily equal eight sorties flown.
Nonetheless, none of this is really that relevant. The Reds will be chopped, along with lots of other good things in life. I won't be signing any petition to keep them, because just maybe, if they're binned we might be able to justify keeping other vital programmes that may save lives. In case you hadn't noticed we're fighting two wars.
Thanks for the update on Red Arrows selection... I must work harder on my irony skillset.
The original point, which I repeat considering your obvious inability to read the earlier parts of the thread, was this:
Point: The Reds have all done "Ops", made by 3.14.
Answer: Er. No they haven't.
Now, I'm not arguing that they haven't all done a tour on a FJ Sqn, but then that's because, THAT WASN'T THE ARGUMENT.
I believe you posted the following:
I think that you will find that most, if not all the Arrows' pilots have been on 'ops' many times, and I can assure you that they have ALL most definately done several 'ops' tours
3.14, with whom you agree 100%, believes the following:
The fact is, the Reds pay for the kudos with a packed schedule (resulting in a sporadic social and family life), unforgiving professionalism and constant public demands at airshows worldwide.
I remain interested as to how many sorties a day the pilots fly. As an AWACS guy, you may realise that 8 slots booked into R313, doesn't necessarily equal eight sorties flown.
Nonetheless, none of this is really that relevant. The Reds will be chopped, along with lots of other good things in life. I won't be signing any petition to keep them, because just maybe, if they're binned we might be able to justify keeping other vital programmes that may save lives. In case you hadn't noticed we're fighting two wars.
Thanks for the update on Red Arrows selection... I must work harder on my irony skillset.
World At One (BBC Radio 4) today ended with a piece on No 10 petitions - and at about 1325 they started a list of petitions to be taken "less than seriously" with the Reds petition, despite mentioning that it had more than 25000 signatures. I dashed off a quick email asking why they were treating it as not serious - hoping they might fit a mention in before the end of the programme.
They didn't - but I did get a nice personal reply from Shaun Ley, the presenter. he said they weren't intending to suggest it wasn't serious - but went on to say "it's good to be kept on our toes".
As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.
airsound
They didn't - but I did get a nice personal reply from Shaun Ley, the presenter. he said they weren't intending to suggest it wasn't serious - but went on to say "it's good to be kept on our toes".
As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.
airsound
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rudeboy
Obviously we are all wasting our time trying to educate you. I can see that you are someone who knows more about the Red Arrows, flying, the RAF in fact probably life in general more than anyone else.
OK, endex, you win. You are right and we are all wrong. AR$e.
TSM
Obviously we are all wasting our time trying to educate you. I can see that you are someone who knows more about the Red Arrows, flying, the RAF in fact probably life in general more than anyone else.
OK, endex, you win. You are right and we are all wrong. AR$e.
TSM
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSM, come on now,
As Rude kid said,
You have to admit that the Harrier pilot who does 2 'frontline' tours before joining the Reds, spending a whole 3 years ponsing about and then going back to the 'frontline' as a Flt Cdr ever gets any credibility! Harrier loser. 
As Rude kid said,
Wonder how the SH fleet feels about that comment, or the C130 fleet, or TCW, the Nimrod Fleet, TACATC, RAF Regt, 16 AAB or 42 Cdo just to name a few.
I can hardly see a government as obsessed with spin as this one (or Gordon Brown's administration, since it'll have the same array of media advisers) getting rid of the Red Arrows.
Stop and think for a moment about which parts of the RAF the average voter - who constantly claims pride in all three services when polled - is aware of. The answer is, in no particular order - the Red Arrows, the Dambusters [extra point for them if they can give the squadron number] and the BBMF.
The likely scenario would be -
1. recommendation to disband Red Arrows reaches minister.
2. Minister confirms his suspicion that this would be very bad PR with his press team because polling suggests that the public have positive views on the Red Arrows.
3. Minister tells CAS to chop something else (adding 'and don't even think about saying 'the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight', Air Chief Marshal').
Brown and Browne may know little about defence, but they have sufficient imagination to realise how scrapping the Red Arrows would play in the tabloids.
Can you seriously imagine them being prepared to contemplate the front page of the Sun screaming out 'Brown Scraps Red Arrows: RAF Heroes chopped through lack of money' - particularly at a point when the Chancellor is endeavouring to cast a positive image of himself with the public? It may make operational sense, it may mean that the funds saved (if not clawed back by the Treasury) would be better used on the front line, etc, etc - but whether or not this is the case, it matters not a jot if that would negative publicity for the government.
Stop and think for a moment about which parts of the RAF the average voter - who constantly claims pride in all three services when polled - is aware of. The answer is, in no particular order - the Red Arrows, the Dambusters [extra point for them if they can give the squadron number] and the BBMF.
The likely scenario would be -
1. recommendation to disband Red Arrows reaches minister.
2. Minister confirms his suspicion that this would be very bad PR with his press team because polling suggests that the public have positive views on the Red Arrows.
3. Minister tells CAS to chop something else (adding 'and don't even think about saying 'the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight', Air Chief Marshal').
Brown and Browne may know little about defence, but they have sufficient imagination to realise how scrapping the Red Arrows would play in the tabloids.
Can you seriously imagine them being prepared to contemplate the front page of the Sun screaming out 'Brown Scraps Red Arrows: RAF Heroes chopped through lack of money' - particularly at a point when the Chancellor is endeavouring to cast a positive image of himself with the public? It may make operational sense, it may mean that the funds saved (if not clawed back by the Treasury) would be better used on the front line, etc, etc - but whether or not this is the case, it matters not a jot if that would negative publicity for the government.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSM,
You don't appear to be educating, just being insulting.
All seems to be an adjective you're having issues with using. You're not all trying to educate me or indeed, all wrong. Just like the all red Arrows pilots haven't all, most definately (sic) done several op tours.
Interesting discussion technique BTW. I note you haven't actually answered any of the points raised.
3.14
I agree, someone as you describe would have an immense amount of credibility. But you appear to have changed your position somewhat, following your earlier statements regarding the composition of the Reds.
Nonetheless your statement regarding the disruption to family life and social life has nothing to do with credibility.
You could argue that a Harrier Flt Cdr may have gained more credibility by remaining on the frontline.
I really don't wish to get into personal specifics, but the criteria you selectively argue don't appear to have been met on some occasions. Now you may have a greater insight of the specific requirements for Reds application/selection, but if you're assigning criteria based on supposition, then don't be surprised if someone questions those. Especially when your criteria are factually inaccurate.
It doesn't matter really whether all the Reds have done (what I would refer to) as Ops. What matters is their increasing irrelevance to the modern RAF. Now, I don't for one moment think that they are alone in their irrelevance, whether that be in Brown, Dark Blue or Light Blue. However, they are a highly visible element of the RAF, not performing their operational duties. This is always going to spotlight them and bring into question their role.
I don't believe this role is justifiable in the current climate. Especially not on the back of their 'operational' credentials.
I guess we'll be disagreeing!
You don't appear to be educating, just being insulting.
All seems to be an adjective you're having issues with using. You're not all trying to educate me or indeed, all wrong. Just like the all red Arrows pilots haven't all, most definately (sic) done several op tours.
Interesting discussion technique BTW. I note you haven't actually answered any of the points raised.
3.14
I agree, someone as you describe would have an immense amount of credibility. But you appear to have changed your position somewhat, following your earlier statements regarding the composition of the Reds.
Nonetheless your statement regarding the disruption to family life and social life has nothing to do with credibility.
You could argue that a Harrier Flt Cdr may have gained more credibility by remaining on the frontline.
I really don't wish to get into personal specifics, but the criteria you selectively argue don't appear to have been met on some occasions. Now you may have a greater insight of the specific requirements for Reds application/selection, but if you're assigning criteria based on supposition, then don't be surprised if someone questions those. Especially when your criteria are factually inaccurate.
It doesn't matter really whether all the Reds have done (what I would refer to) as Ops. What matters is their increasing irrelevance to the modern RAF. Now, I don't for one moment think that they are alone in their irrelevance, whether that be in Brown, Dark Blue or Light Blue. However, they are a highly visible element of the RAF, not performing their operational duties. This is always going to spotlight them and bring into question their role.
I don't believe this role is justifiable in the current climate. Especially not on the back of their 'operational' credentials.
I guess we'll be disagreeing!
For or against the Reds, it makes little difference. The RAF will continue to be hacked at until it can't even put together a decent 5-a-side team. I am not so sure, however, that the Public will be that aghast at the demise of the team, should it happen. Look at the figures.
1,750,000 signed the petition against road charges.
25,000 so far have signed the petition to save the Reds.
That is less than one third of crowd that watched the last England Rugby 6 Nations game.
More people voted on last Saturday's Dancing On Ice Skate Off (so I've been told!
).
Methinks the Public have more pressing concerns these days.
Sad, but true.
1,750,000 signed the petition against road charges.
25,000 so far have signed the petition to save the Reds.
That is less than one third of crowd that watched the last England Rugby 6 Nations game.
More people voted on last Saturday's Dancing On Ice Skate Off (so I've been told!
).Methinks the Public have more pressing concerns these days.
Sad, but true.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Age: 82
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foregive the input from a former Pongo into yet another internal crab cat fight, but I really cannot let so much ill-informed and silly drivel go without comment.
I fail to see why the justification for the continuing existence of the World's finest and best known aerobatic team, which just happens to be British, should degrade into a personal attack on the operational record, credibility and quality of life of the pilots involved. I can only conclude that envy, petty jealousy and ignorance play a large part in pursuading idiots like Rudekid to keep venting their spleen in print.
Credibility? The Reds are selected from the ranks of FJ pilots. As we have not had to fight for air superiority with the Iraqis or Taliban, it is not surprising that they have less time in a combat environment than, for example, SH crews. So how does that effect their credibility? Credibility for what?
As for family and social life, the Reds spend a large proportion of each year away from their families. The 10 weeks training in Greece and Cyprus followed by an overseas display trip, just about every week-end for the rest of the display season, further overseas display trips, many week-ends outside the season keeping the many sponsors happy. I'm surprised their kids recognise them. It may look glamorous to the outsider, but in reality it is an unrelenting grind. The stress of close formation flying to such a level of perfection is also considerable. They are not being shot at, but neither are they sitting in comfort drinking coffee.
These guys are the cream of the cream of flying and, amazingly, are also a thoroughly nice, balanced, team-playing, unegotistical bunch of fellows. If they were not, they would not be what they are: the best.
If the likes of Rudekid want to get rid of them in the naive assumption that the minute resultant financial savings will make any noticeable difference to the price of fish, OK. They are entitled to their opinion. However, lay off the petty attacks on the quality, integrity and dedication of the people involved.
I fail to see why the justification for the continuing existence of the World's finest and best known aerobatic team, which just happens to be British, should degrade into a personal attack on the operational record, credibility and quality of life of the pilots involved. I can only conclude that envy, petty jealousy and ignorance play a large part in pursuading idiots like Rudekid to keep venting their spleen in print.
Credibility? The Reds are selected from the ranks of FJ pilots. As we have not had to fight for air superiority with the Iraqis or Taliban, it is not surprising that they have less time in a combat environment than, for example, SH crews. So how does that effect their credibility? Credibility for what?
As for family and social life, the Reds spend a large proportion of each year away from their families. The 10 weeks training in Greece and Cyprus followed by an overseas display trip, just about every week-end for the rest of the display season, further overseas display trips, many week-ends outside the season keeping the many sponsors happy. I'm surprised their kids recognise them. It may look glamorous to the outsider, but in reality it is an unrelenting grind. The stress of close formation flying to such a level of perfection is also considerable. They are not being shot at, but neither are they sitting in comfort drinking coffee.
These guys are the cream of the cream of flying and, amazingly, are also a thoroughly nice, balanced, team-playing, unegotistical bunch of fellows. If they were not, they would not be what they are: the best.
If the likes of Rudekid want to get rid of them in the naive assumption that the minute resultant financial savings will make any noticeable difference to the price of fish, OK. They are entitled to their opinion. However, lay off the petty attacks on the quality, integrity and dedication of the people involved.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Dear, Rude Child,
I had decided to bow to your superior knowledge and experience, but just to satisfy you, please outline your questions on here once again, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
I will answer them as honestly as I possibly can, but do try to remember that I am but a humble E-3 driver, not a fast pointy-thingy whizz-bang driver. I have given you the benefit of my mere 33 years experience and several million flying hours!, which you seem to have ignored, but hey, so what.
Note all your questions down for me and I will reply to them all. If I can't answer them myself, I will even give Scampton a ring and get it straight from the horses mouth for you.
Hows that? Will that be good enough for you or would you like some blood letting chucked in for good measure? What about a public flogging or hanging?
Regards
TSM
I had decided to bow to your superior knowledge and experience, but just to satisfy you, please outline your questions on here once again, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
I will answer them as honestly as I possibly can, but do try to remember that I am but a humble E-3 driver, not a fast pointy-thingy whizz-bang driver. I have given you the benefit of my mere 33 years experience and several million flying hours!, which you seem to have ignored, but hey, so what.
Note all your questions down for me and I will reply to them all. If I can't answer them myself, I will even give Scampton a ring and get it straight from the horses mouth for you.
Hows that? Will that be good enough for you or would you like some blood letting chucked in for good measure? What about a public flogging or hanging?
Regards
TSM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I was a cunning CAS wanting to make a very big political point I would pull the rug from under the Arrows. And then sit back and watch the political fallout. Joe public might even stand back and go "hang on, what is happening to the Air Force?" The RAF is rapidly becoming a busted flush, what better way of showing it? You can always re-establish the Arrows under a Cameron Govt, when the Tories ramp up defence spending!!
Nah, in the real world when they are gone they are gone, Cameron is covered in snake oil and my other mistake was mentioning cunning and CAS in the same breath.
Nah, in the real world when they are gone they are gone, Cameron is covered in snake oil and my other mistake was mentioning cunning and CAS in the same breath.
Surely, there are other ways of saving a litle MoD cash for the front line and for the Reds. For instance, does Betty still need to take three Nimrods and a Tristar with her when she goes on her holidays??
Do we really need so many horses in the Army? Do todays kids really decide to join up to stand around outside Buck house in a bearskin? Come to think of it, do the computer games manufacturers market an action game entitles "standing around on guard and marching". No, it probably wouldn't appeal to the yoof of today, but the reds always will.
Having read all the reports about Blue on Blue engagements in the sandpit, I find it quite unbelievable that in this day and age, we are still relying on orange markers on vheicles rather than a decent IFF system. Road haulage companies and even dodgy minicab companies are are able to monitor their fleets to within metres with off the shelf GPS satelite tracking systems.
Someone in MoD spendng really needs to get their act together.
Effective reliable IFF systems in the battlefield, more support helicopters and then look at the Reds as a very important second priority.
How about a windfall tax on the city bonuses and oil industry profits to fund Typhoons for the arrows.
Do we really need so many horses in the Army? Do todays kids really decide to join up to stand around outside Buck house in a bearskin? Come to think of it, do the computer games manufacturers market an action game entitles "standing around on guard and marching". No, it probably wouldn't appeal to the yoof of today, but the reds always will. Having read all the reports about Blue on Blue engagements in the sandpit, I find it quite unbelievable that in this day and age, we are still relying on orange markers on vheicles rather than a decent IFF system. Road haulage companies and even dodgy minicab companies are are able to monitor their fleets to within metres with off the shelf GPS satelite tracking systems.
Someone in MoD spendng really needs to get their act together.
Effective reliable IFF systems in the battlefield, more support helicopters and then look at the Reds as a very important second priority.
How about a windfall tax on the city bonuses and oil industry profits to fund Typhoons for the arrows.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: A bit of a gypsy of late!
Age: 55
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Save them all!!
1.8 million signed the anti new road pricing petition. Mr Bliar says it won't change anything. Demorcray - what democracy?
Shouldn't we be signing petitions (not that they will work) for both - save the red arrows and give us the right equipment. Oh, silly me. Its cheaper to pay out compensation when a poor soul loses ones life than to shell out the cash to upgrade our equipment to the required standard or in fact, buy the bl**dy stuff! Heaven knows what it will be like when Gordon the Granite Gopher takes the reins.
And still waiting for news on the pay review........OUCH!
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
Shouldn't we be signing petitions (not that they will work) for both - save the red arrows and give us the right equipment. Oh, silly me. Its cheaper to pay out compensation when a poor soul loses ones life than to shell out the cash to upgrade our equipment to the required standard or in fact, buy the bl**dy stuff! Heaven knows what it will be like when Gordon the Granite Gopher takes the reins.
And still waiting for news on the pay review........OUCH!
ISITD
LFOGOOTFW
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clockwork Mouse
You and the Monkey make a good team. You either can't be bothered to read earlier posts or don't understand what has been written.
I wonder if you're related in some way to a member of the Reds? You seem to be concerned about non-existent personal attacks (integrity questioned?) on them and your knowldge on the stress of low level formation flying seems to be quite in depth.
It's a pity that your other aviation knowledge isn't quite upto speed, but nevermind:
But, now at least you've generated some credibility with your depth of knowldege! Luckily for you, I'm the idiot in print...
I have no personal axe to grind with any of the team. I'm not jealous, nor would I meet the skill level if I met the eligibility criteria. I also don't give a toss about whether Red 94 has 2.4 hours on the Jag from his only front line tour or 3500 hrs and a QWI tick from his three tours on the GR7. I'm sure they're all very capable operators who deserve a place on the team. However, none of this was the point.
You (I use the collective) can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience when in reality it isn't the case.
You can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday) according to my friend TSM.
You don't increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time.
On a personal note, I have known many of the Reds over my fifteen years in the military and count some as friends. Apart from these mates, I have met some good lads and some arrogant pr**ks (including a current member), but that's no different to any Sqn crew room.
Your comment:
I think that makes your position clear!
As a mere non-display military pilot, who will see another 4-5 months in the sandpit this year, I feel qualified to comment on my perceptions as to their relevance. I won't repeat those here again, you'll have to scroll up the page.
I will miss the Reds, but I won't be shedding any tears. Especially whilst we've got underfunded ac (FW and RW) in harms way.
TSM- Thanks for sharing the benefits of your vast experience with me. Well done on your millionth hour, now any chance of getting your facts straight?
You and the Monkey make a good team. You either can't be bothered to read earlier posts or don't understand what has been written.
I wonder if you're related in some way to a member of the Reds? You seem to be concerned about non-existent personal attacks (integrity questioned?) on them and your knowldge on the stress of low level formation flying seems to be quite in depth.
It's a pity that your other aviation knowledge isn't quite upto speed, but nevermind:
As we have not had to fight for air superiority with the Iraqis or Taliban, it is not surprising that they have less time in a combat environment than, for example, SH crews.
Luckily for you, I'm the idiot in print...I have no personal axe to grind with any of the team. I'm not jealous, nor would I meet the skill level if I met the eligibility criteria. I also don't give a toss about whether Red 94 has 2.4 hours on the Jag from his only front line tour or 3500 hrs and a QWI tick from his three tours on the GR7. I'm sure they're all very capable operators who deserve a place on the team. However, none of this was the point.
You (I use the collective) can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they all have Ops experience when in reality it isn't the case.
You can't increase the relevance of the Reds by arguing that they work so hard (flying six to eight sorties a day-everyday) according to my friend TSM.
You don't increase the relevance of the Reds, or endear them to the rest of the military, by stating that they put their family and social lives on hold for a period of time.
On a personal note, I have known many of the Reds over my fifteen years in the military and count some as friends. Apart from these mates, I have met some good lads and some arrogant pr**ks (including a current member), but that's no different to any Sqn crew room.
Your comment:
These guys are the cream of the cream of flying and, amazingly, are also a thoroughly nice, balanced, team-playing, unegotistical bunch of fellows. If they were not, they would not be what they are: the best.
As a mere non-display military pilot, who will see another 4-5 months in the sandpit this year, I feel qualified to comment on my perceptions as to their relevance. I won't repeat those here again, you'll have to scroll up the page.
I will miss the Reds, but I won't be shedding any tears. Especially whilst we've got underfunded ac (FW and RW) in harms way.
TSM- Thanks for sharing the benefits of your vast experience with me. Well done on your millionth hour, now any chance of getting your facts straight?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Age: 82
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSM
Go on, you have another go at the brat if you still have the patience. Don't think I can be bothered. I've just had a week-end of squabbling grandchildren and need some adult conversation. Good luck!
Go on, you have another go at the brat if you still have the patience. Don't think I can be bothered. I've just had a week-end of squabbling grandchildren and need some adult conversation. Good luck!