Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?

[electric.sheep]

Whirling Wizardry (notice no need to resort to naming insults),

Congratulations on your first post.

You will be familiar with the phrase read the f'#~$g question - well, I didn't say that the Merlin was bigger than the SK, I said

listing it as medium lift, alongside helos the size of SK and Puma, while in reality it is Chinook sized

in simpler terms, its as big as a Chinook, has 3 engines, but only competes in the medium lift class.

I'm well aware of its current work in Iraq, the lads on 28 are doing a great job, but only because the CH47 had to be withdrawn as it was the only helo capable of delivering lift in Afghanistan.

[PTT]

My point is that even with their sooper dooper upgrade the Puma does not have the capacity or range to do the job of LSH, whereas the Chinook and Merlin fulfill the role between them.

If this is your point I must disagree. Merlin/Chinook simply cannot fit into places the Puma can (see NI as an example as well as other places), certainly not without destroying the surrounding area or anything they are hovering over. The flexibility to do this is one of the important things you need from LSH - otherwise what's the point of a mixed fleet? If we accept that FLynx is too small for the job then Puma upgrade/Cougar fits the bill nicely.

[Whirling Wizardry]

electric.sheep

Many thanks for your congratulations on my first post, they are gratefully received. (note the lack of naming insults, wouldn't want to intentionally offend and hurt any feelings).

If you want to get pedantic, I believe that the Puma/Merlin/Chinook sim facility is called MSHATF, not the Puma/Merlin MSHATF and Chinook HSHATF. Basic physics tells us that the most effective way of acheiving helicopter lift is through the tandem rotor design, as all of the required power to drive any rotors goes downwards, there is no debating that it offers more lift capability over the Merlin/Puma/Seaking. However, there are some roles that the Merlin is more suitable to than the Chinook, any unbiased SH operator will admit this.

Fact of the matter is that the Merlin, along with the Apache, have both suffered a lot of unwarranted slander and gossip since their introduction into service from third parties that have absolutely no experience of operating them. e.g "the Merlin can't even fly on 2 engines", It can easily hover on two. I'm glad to say that both have given a huge 2 fingers up to all of them. You only have to look at some of the drivel that was being banded about before their deployments to Iraq and Helmand respectively, you will be hard pushed to find anyone coming out with the same comments now.

I'm not saying that Merlin is the be-all and end-all to the UKs future SH requirements but it is a damn fine helicopter that offers far more than the uneducated know.

[Tiger_mate]

Fact of the matter is that the Merlin, along with the Apache, have both suffered a lot of unwarranted slander and gossip since their introduction into service from third parties that have absolutely no experience of operating them.

So did the Puma, especially when the rear cowlings had a habit of falling off causing at least one fatal accident.

So did the Chinook in the early 80's. 'Boeing death ship' and 'Aluminium body bag' amongst others. Until a new helicopter has proved its worth,(safety) it will be subject to this form of criticism, it goes with the immortal mentality of aircrew.

It really is about time both Apache and Merlin were given a break on this one. If we got a new type be it small (a la Puma ish: NH90 please) or large CH53, it to would be subject to the cods being discussed.

[NURSE]

Agreed if we were to get a new type. But i think that is highly unlikley.
I would agree that the Merlin and Apache have earn't their spurs, the Army Air Corps has proved it can successfully field a technologically advanced attack helecopter and members of the Chinook community who worked with them have acknowledged this.
The next target for slagging will be the new lynx. So with the sugestion that Future Lynx be replaced with cougar we're back to cougar again why not NH90 or AW139? And if we did change from FLynx as the LUH the next argument would be of it has to be given RAF as the AAC couldn't possibly support it?
If the Flynx was to be abandoned in the LUH role then do we replace lynx in maritime role with Merlin?

[electric.sheep]

If you want to get pedantic the MSHATF was named when the project consisted of Chinook/Merlin sims only, the Puma was added later as a spend-to-save measure.

The basic laws of physics are correct and there are some roles that the Merlin is more suitable for; the 3 engine design was intended to allow hover in the sonar dip, while shutting down one engine whould allow longer loiter time over the sea.

[PTT]

The next target for slagging will be the new lynx. So with the sugestion that Future Lynx be replaced with cougar we're back to cougar again why not NH90 or AW139?

They're two different aircraft with different capabilities. Cougar and the others are medium in terms of size and lift capability. FLynx is light in those terms in the same way that Chinook is heavy, i.e. the top end of what we have. As I understand it FLynx will be great at battlefield recce and anti-sub/ship warfare, but if you want to get just 8-16 troops (oddly useful numbers, those) into a small space then something Puma/Cougar-sized is the dog's knob. We already have a pool of Puma trained and experienced people, so choosing Cougar/Puma "Gold" reduces training costs and time to FOC over the other types.

As for Puma/Cougar vs Sea King, one word: speed. I fly Puma and have flown in formation with a Sea King in Iraq: having to slow down that much made me feel particularly vulnerable.

[NURSE]

PTT
Yes am aware of where FLynx falls but am worried some of its other roles like laison and reconisance will be forgoten by some posters in the debate its another of those comprimises were it will preform a multitude of tasks but not all of them well.
I can under stand the sea king being slow verses puma being faster sea King was of course designed as an ASW platform. Then was put into the transport role for commonality in the Fleet air arm. Have worked with Puma in Belize and Northern Ireland.
given the puma's listed speed as 147kts and merlins of 167kts (source RAF website) would that make you feel safer? even though its a bigger helecopter?

[PTT]

given the puma's listed speed as 147kts and merlins of 167kts (source RAF website) would that make you feel safer? even though its a bigger helecopter?

Without going into details which it would be imprudent to publish on open source, no.

Also, it's a matter of needing something the size of a Puma to do jobs that a Merlin simply cannot do due to being too big or having too much downwash. From a purely military SH point of view, a Puma/Chinook mix would work nicely (a la US Army CH-47/UH-60 basic mix, with other specialised aircraft in appropriate roles). From the UKPLC point of view we need the Merlin too. There is a job for it, but that job is one where the Chinook is unnecessary/needed elsewhere and the Puma is too small. Don't misunderstand, I think the Merlin is a great aircraft and it and the crews are doing the job in Iraq brilliantly; I merely do not see a need for a third, middle-sized SH where logistic and support chains need to be replicated when we can do the job with more Chinooks and Pumas (where the Chinook is too big/better used elsewhere/inappropriate) and only 2 support chains to feed. In fact, the reduction in support could fund an increase in front line capability - going out on a limb, you could then argue that the Merlin is in fact hindering UK SH capability! (not that I'd go so far as to say that)

[electric.sheep]

(not that I'd go so far as to say that)

Someone already did:

The politically driven purchase of the Merlin Mk 3 has in fact reduced the overall number of SH available to the Army for a number of reasons:

- The unit cost of purchasing bespoke airframes instead of the economy of numbers.
- Duplicated supply and support chains.
- Duplicated aircrew and engineering training systems including simulators, all requiring dedicated instructors.

[NURSE]

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...orcesvideo.htm

so 6 more melins and a reannouncemect on chinook hc3

[kinelliQ]

chin up

we take carson to the US this month. Can't be long now.

[wokkameister]

With the ADF shedding their Blackhawks, stand by for a new squadron as Nu Labour buys up anything cheap to answer the headlines of lack of rotary.
Short term measure to cover the fact we have screwed up by getting the Merlin in the first place. Whatever the political implications for SW England, it is useful for Telic bus runs, but any aircraft could manage that. The Stan will test the aircraft to the limit and I fear it will be left very wanting.
Buying more may keep the Daily Mail of the MOD's back, but achieves very little.
Just my opinion mind you! And a reflection of the quality of the aircraft, and not the crews that fly them. (Still Freaks though)

WM

[Mr-AEO]

'Black Hawk' - Interesting though probably not affordable, and certainly not good for mixed fleet issues. But on it's capability alone, I remember reading a recent report that demontrated how much better it would be in the Stan than the forthcoming BRH.

[Jackonicko]

Because Chinook HC2A and Chinook HC3 were such an astonishingly sensible use of resources, Wokkameister?

[Mr-AEO]

Jacko - what's your inference? That Chinook 2b is a better use of resources than Chinook Mk3?

[lightningmate]

Mr-AEO,

Now why are you asking that question

lm

[Jackonicko]

Just trying to counter the ridiculous claim that "we have screwed up by getting the Merlin in the first place."

[Compressorstall]

Wokkameister - are you inferring that the Merlin is on its way to the 'Stan? If so, it would probably be a welcome relief for the Op TELIC crews who are tired of the so-called 'bus runs'. It may be that the Merlin was slightly foisted upon us, but it is has grown into an impressive aircraft. We simply have a more diverse fleet with Chinooks, Merlins and Pumas (not to mention the Commnado SK4s). The crews would probably welcome the chance to try it somewhere different, but it might require some mind broadening.
As for the ADF Blackhawks, they are tired and the Blackhawk doesn't perform startlingly well in theatre. Don't you think the ADF would have deployed them if they did?
It would be nice if anyone in procurement read these pages, but right now it is nice to know we have some additional SH capability coming rather than muddling on with what we have.

[WIWOWessex]

Wokkameister- Its exactly your kind of single minded "Chinook is the best aircraft in the world and anything else is c**p" thought processes that signify all thats bad about this forum.

Wake up!!! No we didn't want the Merlin!! Yes we got it!!! And now after more than two years in Iraq it has proved itself to be a very able, versatile platform which, according to a shed load of squaddies, they much prefer over Chinook!!!

If it goes to 'stan it will no doubt prove to be just as effective (in its own way) as the mighty wokka.

Grow up and see the world as it really is!!


Live long and prosper