Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
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Jacko.
You are rude and not very bright sir. I suggest you apologise to the Helpful Stacker forthwith. I cannot describe how low you sit in my eyes. If you cannot deal with humour, maybe you should be off chasing Royals through Paris tunnels.
If we ever meet, best you be a fast runner as your notebook and camera will swiftly be inserted and hammered home up to the fourth lacing of my boot.
Warm regards from Odiham
WM
You are rude and not very bright sir. I suggest you apologise to the Helpful Stacker forthwith. I cannot describe how low you sit in my eyes. If you cannot deal with humour, maybe you should be off chasing Royals through Paris tunnels.
If we ever meet, best you be a fast runner as your notebook and camera will swiftly be inserted and hammered home up to the fourth lacing of my boot.
Warm regards from Odiham
WM
Thread Starter
Has Odiham really become a banter free zone, WM?
It always used to be the sort of place where a robust response to abuse was expected.
If that blunt twit didn't want to be teased, then perhaps he should have avoided the 'opinionated hack' stuff, though it's heartening to see you leap to his defence.
And if you're really so dim that you class any journo as being the same as Tabloid scum or paparazzi, then you deserve my sympathy. (And perhaps a little help in removing that ramrod from your back passage).
I'm not the only person here (only the least qualified) telling you that your anti-Merlin prejudice is tired, silly and ill-informed
It always used to be the sort of place where a robust response to abuse was expected.
If that blunt twit didn't want to be teased, then perhaps he should have avoided the 'opinionated hack' stuff, though it's heartening to see you leap to his defence.
And if you're really so dim that you class any journo as being the same as Tabloid scum or paparazzi, then you deserve my sympathy. (And perhaps a little help in removing that ramrod from your back passage).
I'm not the only person here (only the least qualified) telling you that your anti-Merlin prejudice is tired, silly and ill-informed
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I have no problem with being called a bluntie by someone who has operational service in the military but from a hack who has pretensions of his own importance and influence....
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Defending members of the team that is Odiham from ill informed abuse by an opinionated hack is not just my duty, it is a pleasure.
Odiham is a little low on morale, being exceptionally busy. Perhaps this is a reflection of the success of the Chinook.
Helpful- suggest we leave this second rate stringer to his own devices and go back to chatting to the grown ups. After all, he probably has tommorrows horoscopes to write anyway.
WM
Odiham is a little low on morale, being exceptionally busy. Perhaps this is a reflection of the success of the Chinook.
Helpful- suggest we leave this second rate stringer to his own devices and go back to chatting to the grown ups. After all, he probably has tommorrows horoscopes to write anyway.
WM
Thread Starter
WM
Immediate banter lessons obviously required for you WM. Is that really the best you can do? Odiham's mess must be a barrel of fun nowadays, no wonder morale's not what it should be.
What have we had so far? Empty posturing and threats to kick my ar.se (what's next, are you going to get your Dad on me? Perhaps you could tell teacher?). And I shouldn't forget your pathetic stereotypes about the kind of journos who have nothing to do with what I do.
THS
No pretensions, no importance. All I do is try to assess, analyse and reflect what people tell me. They're the people who know, I don't pretend to be anything more than the conduit. Respect to you as a serving member of HM Forces, of course, (I know that my own VR service doesn't compare) but there'd be more respect from me if you'd actually flown as P1 in one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes.
Remember chaps, it's not just the inky fingered journo scum who is saying that while Chinook has its undoubted capabilities and usefulness, so too does the Merlin. It's other frontline aircrew who fly the Merlin, and the users, too.
Immediate banter lessons obviously required for you WM. Is that really the best you can do? Odiham's mess must be a barrel of fun nowadays, no wonder morale's not what it should be.
What have we had so far? Empty posturing and threats to kick my ar.se (what's next, are you going to get your Dad on me? Perhaps you could tell teacher?). And I shouldn't forget your pathetic stereotypes about the kind of journos who have nothing to do with what I do.
THS
No pretensions, no importance. All I do is try to assess, analyse and reflect what people tell me. They're the people who know, I don't pretend to be anything more than the conduit. Respect to you as a serving member of HM Forces, of course, (I know that my own VR service doesn't compare) but there'd be more respect from me if you'd actually flown as P1 in one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes.
Remember chaps, it's not just the inky fingered journo scum who is saying that while Chinook has its undoubted capabilities and usefulness, so too does the Merlin. It's other frontline aircrew who fly the Merlin, and the users, too.
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TheWizard
Yes, I do know what both fits are, and I am well aware of their relative merits and weaknesses. I'd happily chat to you about the definition of "capability" over a beer: as you correctly say, this is not the place. I personally am happier with one fit than with another.
Jacko - this is not an us vs them thing, it's a matter of fitting capability to requirement (effects-based procurement?), and the requirement does not include a third type to carry out what can be very (and I do mean very) simplistically be broken down into two tasks: move lots of stuff into big places and move lots of (although usually less) stuff into small places.
An opinion based on what? Do you actually know what the DAS fit is on both?(obviously not for publication on here) If you do then you need to have another look at the definition of capability. If not then your statement has no credibility and comes across as just another anti-Merlin rant
Jacko - this is not an us vs them thing, it's a matter of fitting capability to requirement (effects-based procurement?), and the requirement does not include a third type to carry out what can be very (and I do mean very) simplistically be broken down into two tasks: move lots of stuff into big places and move lots of (although usually less) stuff into small places.
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Jacko,
"but there'd be more respect from me if you'd actually flown as P1 in one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes."
The implication of that rather insulting throwaway is that only pilots have credibility and are therefore believable whilst crewman are simply to be ignored cos they know **** all
Some have questioned your "actual" service knowledge and it's my impression from that rather insulting inference that your finger is quite a long way from any informed military pulse, but in your line of work why does that not come as a surprise
"but there'd be more respect from me if you'd actually flown as P1 in one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes."
The implication of that rather insulting throwaway is that only pilots have credibility and are therefore believable whilst crewman are simply to be ignored cos they know **** all
Some have questioned your "actual" service knowledge and it's my impression from that rather insulting inference that your finger is quite a long way from any informed military pulse, but in your line of work why does that not come as a surprise
Thread Starter
Seldomffp,
Wrong inference, I'm afraid.
The inference was that I had done. A modest achievement, and not to be compared with anyone who wears any form of flying brevet (whether crewman, WSO, Signaller or whatever), but one which I'm proud of...... (I have the arrogance, you see, just not the ability....)
PTT
Except that that really is too simplistic, isn't it? There are plenty of tasks that a Merlin does rather better than either a Puma or a Chinook (and vice versa, to a degree). As Iraq has shown pretty conclusively. If it were up to me, I'd want a mix of sizes of SH (Chinook/Merlin/NH90 perhaps, or even AW149), but if constrained to just the two types, then Chinook/Merlin makes more sense to me than the other options - not least (but not only) because that's what we already have.
The idea that we should throw Merlin away and buy Cougars is risible, and (in many people's view) would result in a force mix that was less available and less capable.
WM,
At last! (I don't believe I've agreed with Tourist).
Wrong inference, I'm afraid.
The inference was that I had done. A modest achievement, and not to be compared with anyone who wears any form of flying brevet (whether crewman, WSO, Signaller or whatever), but one which I'm proud of...... (I have the arrogance, you see, just not the ability....)
PTT
Except that that really is too simplistic, isn't it? There are plenty of tasks that a Merlin does rather better than either a Puma or a Chinook (and vice versa, to a degree). As Iraq has shown pretty conclusively. If it were up to me, I'd want a mix of sizes of SH (Chinook/Merlin/NH90 perhaps, or even AW149), but if constrained to just the two types, then Chinook/Merlin makes more sense to me than the other options - not least (but not only) because that's what we already have.
The idea that we should throw Merlin away and buy Cougars is risible, and (in many people's view) would result in a force mix that was less available and less capable.
WM,
At last! (I don't believe I've agreed with Tourist).
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Looking from outside IMHO we have to many types of support helecopter in service and as many people here have banged on about duplication of support and logistics. Is it not a little bit expensive and time consuming to have 4 Helecopters doing Broadly similar jobs with seperate training and spares holdings etc?
Puma is useful at the lighter end and chinook for the heavy stuff that leaves Merlin and sea king in the middle. Now refurbishing seaking will just keep the system as complicated as it is. now Fleet and 3 Cdo Bde still need Support helecopter as do the army and the RAF would a logical position not be to replace Seaking with Merlins which are already in service with royal navy and a maritime transport variant is available with the RAF running a fleet of land optimised aircraft. I know people will jump up and bang on about maritimising the Chinook but am reliably informed that is a non-starter both technically and financially.
Eventually Puma will have to be replaced and NH90 may be an option. UKPLC do need a mix of airframes and there isn't a 1 size fits all type at present. What does appear to be missing is some longer term thinking instead of the sticking plaster approach we appear to be taking at present.
Puma is useful at the lighter end and chinook for the heavy stuff that leaves Merlin and sea king in the middle. Now refurbishing seaking will just keep the system as complicated as it is. now Fleet and 3 Cdo Bde still need Support helecopter as do the army and the RAF would a logical position not be to replace Seaking with Merlins which are already in service with royal navy and a maritime transport variant is available with the RAF running a fleet of land optimised aircraft. I know people will jump up and bang on about maritimising the Chinook but am reliably informed that is a non-starter both technically and financially.
Eventually Puma will have to be replaced and NH90 may be an option. UKPLC do need a mix of airframes and there isn't a 1 size fits all type at present. What does appear to be missing is some longer term thinking instead of the sticking plaster approach we appear to be taking at present.
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"What does appear to be missing is some longer term thinking instead of the sticking plaster approach we appear to be taking at present."
NURSE, not really true. There are lots of people 'thinking' about long term procurement and availability. However, you can think as much as you like but if Gordon Brown is not willing to put some cash in the coffers not much is going to change.
I do agree that across the entire military fleet we do have too many types. The Puma is not dying on its arse quite yet and is still doing a very valuable job, the Sea King is in a similar position but without these two fleets Merlin and Chinook could not do what they are doing plus the extra work-load. 'Sticking Plasters' in the short to medium term is the only option unfortunately. The Merlin is a capable a/c and is doing a good job, the crews want to broaden there the Merlins portfolio so its not just MNDSE but we are not going to get rid of it now. I agree with previous post though that a chinook and Puma sized a/c offers a good degree of mission coverage but that does not mean we should just wipe the other fleets off that map.
NURSE, not really true. There are lots of people 'thinking' about long term procurement and availability. However, you can think as much as you like but if Gordon Brown is not willing to put some cash in the coffers not much is going to change.
I do agree that across the entire military fleet we do have too many types. The Puma is not dying on its arse quite yet and is still doing a very valuable job, the Sea King is in a similar position but without these two fleets Merlin and Chinook could not do what they are doing plus the extra work-load. 'Sticking Plasters' in the short to medium term is the only option unfortunately. The Merlin is a capable a/c and is doing a good job, the crews want to broaden there the Merlins portfolio so its not just MNDSE but we are not going to get rid of it now. I agree with previous post though that a chinook and Puma sized a/c offers a good degree of mission coverage but that does not mean we should just wipe the other fleets off that map.
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Jacko
In an ideal world a mix if sizes would be great, but the fact is that the UK military is too small to be able to pay for such extravagance.
Your justification for the Chinook/Merlin mix is lacking somewhat - we do also already have Puma, and more of those than we have Merlin. An upgrade to Puma 2 will/would increase capability considerably, making it highly viable as the second platform and it would still hold what I see as the trump card in this situation - it's a lot smaller than the Merlin.
Size really does matter, you see, in particular for urban operations. You state that I oversimplified the case, but the truth is that we really are just the drivers of (complicated) trucks. The job of the truck is to get load X from point A to point B safely and efficiently and in a timely manner. In order to carry that out the truck must be fast, serviceable (!), safe and, crucially, able to park at points A and B. Where the Chinook cannot acheive the parking, the Puma slots in nicely - the Merlin is not really much of an improvement in terms of parking space. If the load is too big for the Puma then you use more than one.
In an ideal world a mix if sizes would be great, but the fact is that the UK military is too small to be able to pay for such extravagance.
Your justification for the Chinook/Merlin mix is lacking somewhat - we do also already have Puma, and more of those than we have Merlin. An upgrade to Puma 2 will/would increase capability considerably, making it highly viable as the second platform and it would still hold what I see as the trump card in this situation - it's a lot smaller than the Merlin.
Size really does matter, you see, in particular for urban operations. You state that I oversimplified the case, but the truth is that we really are just the drivers of (complicated) trucks. The job of the truck is to get load X from point A to point B safely and efficiently and in a timely manner. In order to carry that out the truck must be fast, serviceable (!), safe and, crucially, able to park at points A and B. Where the Chinook cannot acheive the parking, the Puma slots in nicely - the Merlin is not really much of an improvement in terms of parking space. If the load is too big for the Puma then you use more than one.
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If we are buying Pumas from the Portugese, why don't we buy Wessex from Uruguay? (they still operate the HC2)
We know they can operate in fairly tough conditions, and we certainly have a lot of experienced crew around!
coat obtained and heading for the taxi
We know they can operate in fairly tough conditions, and we certainly have a lot of experienced crew around!
coat obtained and heading for the taxi
Thread Starter
How long can the existing Puma airframes last, though?
Which would it make more sense to retire - ageing Pumas or near-new Merlins (the latter sharing considerable commonality with Navy Merlins, some engine commonality with the AH, etc.)?
Facing the decision of which do you buy more of, Pumas or Merlins - the right answer must be Merlin - though it should be a Merlin like the Italian Mk 413, navalised with folding tailboom and rotors. Then the Sea King 4 could perhaps be taken out of service and its logistics chain removed.
And if there really is a need for a smaller platform, then augment the Chinooks and Merlins with AW139 or NH90.
I'm not anti-Puma by any means - I have stick time in the Puma, and I spent some very, very happy times with 33 and 1563 Flight and have a real soft spot for the old girl, and for the blokes who operate it. I'm aware of some of the extraordinary missions and roles that have been flown by the Puma in Iraq, and of the kit used, and I am profoundly sad (but accepting of the fact) that the likes of me can't write about them - the Puma boys deserve great credit for what they've achieved. I'm surprised that you haven't laboured the advantage of the big doors on BOTH sides.
The Wessex was a great aircraft, too, but that does not mean that it should still be in use, nor that we should be buying a new production Super Wessex were it still in production.
Which would it make more sense to retire - ageing Pumas or near-new Merlins (the latter sharing considerable commonality with Navy Merlins, some engine commonality with the AH, etc.)?
Facing the decision of which do you buy more of, Pumas or Merlins - the right answer must be Merlin - though it should be a Merlin like the Italian Mk 413, navalised with folding tailboom and rotors. Then the Sea King 4 could perhaps be taken out of service and its logistics chain removed.
And if there really is a need for a smaller platform, then augment the Chinooks and Merlins with AW139 or NH90.
I'm not anti-Puma by any means - I have stick time in the Puma, and I spent some very, very happy times with 33 and 1563 Flight and have a real soft spot for the old girl, and for the blokes who operate it. I'm aware of some of the extraordinary missions and roles that have been flown by the Puma in Iraq, and of the kit used, and I am profoundly sad (but accepting of the fact) that the likes of me can't write about them - the Puma boys deserve great credit for what they've achieved. I'm surprised that you haven't laboured the advantage of the big doors on BOTH sides.
The Wessex was a great aircraft, too, but that does not mean that it should still be in use, nor that we should be buying a new production Super Wessex were it still in production.
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"but there'd be more respect from me if you'd actually flown as P1 in one of Her Majesty's aeroplanes."
and
"I'm not anti-Puma by any means - I have stick time in the Puma,"
Jacko,
Can you just humour me and expand on your credentials for me?
and
"I'm not anti-Puma by any means - I have stick time in the Puma,"
Jacko,
Can you just humour me and expand on your credentials for me?
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How long can the existing Puma airframes last, though?
cing the decision of which do you buy more of, Pumas or Merlins - the right answer must be Merlin
And if there really is a need for a smaller platform, then augment the Chinooks and Merlins with AW139 or NH90
(1) No money
(2) No money
(3) No money
Oh and yes they're really is a need - it's not for discussion here
able to park at points A and B
In an ideal world we'd all have brand spanking new aircraft. There'd be more servicable Chinooks than we'd know what to do with. The Merlin would have seperate hangar dedicated to storing spares for when they're needed. And the Puma would have been upgraded in the 70's . That my friends is fantasy land.
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Sorry to jump in on the discussion, but I have flown Pumas and I am now flying the Merlin. Not in the RAF, but in the PAF - Portuguese Air Force.
I operated Pumas for 4 years in 711 Squadron in the Azores islands, and 2 weeks before we completed the phase out, we actually received a group of engineers and pilots from the RAF (both pilots were Squadron Commanders I think), to survery our a/c, and we were glad to see that everyone from the RAF liked the look and feel of our Pumas. Portugal ordered the first production aircraft from Sud-Aviation in the late 60's, but we upgraded them during their operational life, and we didn't use them as much as you do. I believe normal total time for our airframes were around the 6000/7000 hrs (in 38 years of service). In the early 90's we upgraded the engines to the Makila 1A1, and we gained a lot of available power (the MGB was not upgraded, so MTOW remained 7400Kg). Your pilots told us that in Iraq or Afghanistan that extra-power would be most welcome. I have to say that I never saw NR droop while flying our Puma, not even taking off at high AUW or landing at 7000 ft, which we did sometimes.
Then we bought the Merlin, and it is a great aircraft. That is, when it is outside the hangar, because as soon as it enters the hangar, they don't want to get out. There are no spares, period. And this is hurting a lot, we are having a lot of problems qualifying new pilots because there are no available hours. A lot of this problem is our fault, but the Canadians have the same issues with spares.
The Merlin brought an improved capability to us, doubling our SAR coverage from 200 NM to almost 400 NM, but curiously, we don't have a single heliport certified for 15600 Kg in mainland Portugal, which means that we stopped doing EMS service for the civilians, which we sometimes did in the Puma. It is a very good a/c, but the lack of spares and cost of flight hours has us now wandering why we didn't buy the Cougar...
I don't have knowledge about the specific situation of the British Armed Forces to give an opinion about what you should buy, but just thought you'd like to know what our experience has been.
Best wishes
Pinho
I operated Pumas for 4 years in 711 Squadron in the Azores islands, and 2 weeks before we completed the phase out, we actually received a group of engineers and pilots from the RAF (both pilots were Squadron Commanders I think), to survery our a/c, and we were glad to see that everyone from the RAF liked the look and feel of our Pumas. Portugal ordered the first production aircraft from Sud-Aviation in the late 60's, but we upgraded them during their operational life, and we didn't use them as much as you do. I believe normal total time for our airframes were around the 6000/7000 hrs (in 38 years of service). In the early 90's we upgraded the engines to the Makila 1A1, and we gained a lot of available power (the MGB was not upgraded, so MTOW remained 7400Kg). Your pilots told us that in Iraq or Afghanistan that extra-power would be most welcome. I have to say that I never saw NR droop while flying our Puma, not even taking off at high AUW or landing at 7000 ft, which we did sometimes.
Then we bought the Merlin, and it is a great aircraft. That is, when it is outside the hangar, because as soon as it enters the hangar, they don't want to get out. There are no spares, period. And this is hurting a lot, we are having a lot of problems qualifying new pilots because there are no available hours. A lot of this problem is our fault, but the Canadians have the same issues with spares.
The Merlin brought an improved capability to us, doubling our SAR coverage from 200 NM to almost 400 NM, but curiously, we don't have a single heliport certified for 15600 Kg in mainland Portugal, which means that we stopped doing EMS service for the civilians, which we sometimes did in the Puma. It is a very good a/c, but the lack of spares and cost of flight hours has us now wandering why we didn't buy the Cougar...
I don't have knowledge about the specific situation of the British Armed Forces to give an opinion about what you should buy, but just thought you'd like to know what our experience has been.
Best wishes
Pinho
Pinho,
Thanks for some enlightening comments which appear, succinctly, to precis the previous arguements ie:
1. The Merlin is a great pilot's ac, when it works.
2. AW Customer support can be awful.
3. It's too bl***y big to be a Puma/Wessex replacement.
4. It's too bl***y expensive to fly given its' pretty pathetic disposable load.
Ergo, back to basics: Dream world = CH47 capability & Puma size ac both marinised with good H&H performance.
Real World= Pork barrel politics, Service infighting & not enough cabs for AFG.
I know many an individual who was kicking around MoD in the mid 1990s. To a man they say that the Merlin was NOT the choice of the RAF or the Customer. The case for extra CH47s was repeatedly vetoed by the then Govt for purely political reasons. In no way does this take away from 28 the respect they've earned in SE Iraq, well done. But, the most important contribution has been to free up CH47s for AFG. If we'd bought the 35-odd CH47s that were on the table in 1995 we'd have plenty to go round..
Thanks for some enlightening comments which appear, succinctly, to precis the previous arguements ie:
1. The Merlin is a great pilot's ac, when it works.
2. AW Customer support can be awful.
3. It's too bl***y big to be a Puma/Wessex replacement.
4. It's too bl***y expensive to fly given its' pretty pathetic disposable load.
Ergo, back to basics: Dream world = CH47 capability & Puma size ac both marinised with good H&H performance.
Real World= Pork barrel politics, Service infighting & not enough cabs for AFG.
I know many an individual who was kicking around MoD in the mid 1990s. To a man they say that the Merlin was NOT the choice of the RAF or the Customer. The case for extra CH47s was repeatedly vetoed by the then Govt for purely political reasons. In no way does this take away from 28 the respect they've earned in SE Iraq, well done. But, the most important contribution has been to free up CH47s for AFG. If we'd bought the 35-odd CH47s that were on the table in 1995 we'd have plenty to go round..