Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
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The RAF (infact the whole Armed Force's) role is not to provide Westlands with a nice stream of orders over a suitable timescale to keep the shareholders happy, we are here to carry out the will of government through military force and we should be equipped to a standard that allows us to carry out that task in the most efficient and safest manner. If Westlands can't stay competitive with the rest of the helicopter producing market then the Armed Forces shouldn't have to dip into its limited budget to bail them out, that money should come from central government coffers.
I'm sure that many troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that worked supporting them and to do that (among other things) requires logistical back-up, something the US manufacturers seem ever so slightly better at than Westlands.
I'm sure that many troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that worked supporting them and to do that (among other things) requires logistical back-up, something the US manufacturers seem ever so slightly better at than Westlands.
well if the rumours re Danish/Portusese Merlins and Portugese Pumas are untrue what about the rumours of the Sea Kings in store being converted to HC 6's?
There's certainly enough of them. Look under UK and then Gosport for the ones at Sultan (soon to be semi-superfluous you might think)....
http://www.demobbed.org.uk/
http://www.demobbed.org.uk/
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The politically driven purchase of the Merlin Mk 3 has in fact reduced the overall number of SH available to the Army for a number of reasons:
- The unit cost of purchasing bespoke airframes instead of the economy of numbers.
- Duplicated supply and support chains.
- Duplicated aircrew and engineering training systems including simulators, all requiring dedicated instructors.
Which is money, men and effort that should have been put into the most effective SH we have. So how can it be claimed that the Merlin is cost-effective? Aircrew and engineers have to be retrained as they move between the types.
On what possible basis is it out performing its rivals?
If you want more availablity, more of the time, buy more of the same type and invest in improving it rather than dividing your resources on less capability.
- The unit cost of purchasing bespoke airframes instead of the economy of numbers.
- Duplicated supply and support chains.
- Duplicated aircrew and engineering training systems including simulators, all requiring dedicated instructors.
Which is money, men and effort that should have been put into the most effective SH we have. So how can it be claimed that the Merlin is cost-effective? Aircrew and engineers have to be retrained as they move between the types.
On what possible basis is it out performing its rivals?
If you want more availablity, more of the time, buy more of the same type and invest in improving it rather than dividing your resources on less capability.
Last edited by electric.sheep; 5th Feb 2007 at 20:08.
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Now now 'Electric Sheep', that sounds a little too reasoned for Pprune. I suggest you take it elsewhere.
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WHL Seeking new roles.
Mr AEO,
Glad to hear that WHL are seeking to move into effective operational support.
They have certainly mastered ineffective operational support.
Glad to hear that WHL are seeking to move into effective operational support.
They have certainly mastered ineffective operational support.
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ATE: 30/01/07 SOURCE:Flight International
UK nears a decision on interim helicopter deal
By Craig Hoyle
The UK Ministry of Defence could be just weeks from determining how to best fill the critical shortfall in its battlefield helicopter capability, with life extension, lease, new-build and secondhand acquisition options still under consideration.
Flight International has meanwhile learned of a Eurocopter proposal to supply the UK with eight ex-Portuguese air force SA330 Puma transports. The offer emerged following Lisbon's rejection of a request to sell several of its new AgustaWestland EH101s to bolster the Royal Air Force's EH101 Merlin HC3 fleet.
An industry source close to the Eurocopter proposal says the secondhand aircraft would be "ideally suited for the hot-and-high demands of Afghanistan", and represent "an appealing package operationally".
Portugal's SA330s were delivered between 1969 and 1974, according to Flight's MiliCAS database, and have Turbomeca Makila engines more powerful than the Turmo systems used by the RAF's current Puma HC1s.
Eurocopter approached the MoD last October to offer the aircraft under a 10-year deal, to also include the provision of spares and a comprehensive logistics support package in conjunction with FR Aviation/Bristow Helicopters joint venture FB Heliservices.
This would be in addition to a five-year contract worth up to £100 million ($197 million) to support the UK's current Puma and Eurocopter Gazelle fleets
Eurocopter in mid-January submitted its final response for the latter requirement, with a contract award expected around June. MoD personnel are meanwhile understood to have flown to Portugal to inspect the secondhand Pumas, which an industry source says could be modified and delivered to the RAF within 12 months of contract signature.
The UK has previously acquired several secondhand Pumas from South Africa to boost its operational inventory of the type, which is currently in use in southern Iraq.
Other solutions being considered by the MoD include purchasing EH101 tactical transports from Denmark returning stored Westland Sea Kings to service and accelerating the acquisition of new medium-lift aircraft. Funding a "fix-to-field" package to bring the RAF's non-operational Boeing CH-47 Chinook HC3s into service, and a potential 10-year commercial lease deal are also options.
An MoD source confirms that a decision on a possible interim helicopter deal could be made within the coming weeks, but declines to provide further details.
UK nears a decision on interim helicopter deal
By Craig Hoyle
The UK Ministry of Defence could be just weeks from determining how to best fill the critical shortfall in its battlefield helicopter capability, with life extension, lease, new-build and secondhand acquisition options still under consideration.
Flight International has meanwhile learned of a Eurocopter proposal to supply the UK with eight ex-Portuguese air force SA330 Puma transports. The offer emerged following Lisbon's rejection of a request to sell several of its new AgustaWestland EH101s to bolster the Royal Air Force's EH101 Merlin HC3 fleet.
An industry source close to the Eurocopter proposal says the secondhand aircraft would be "ideally suited for the hot-and-high demands of Afghanistan", and represent "an appealing package operationally".
Portugal's SA330s were delivered between 1969 and 1974, according to Flight's MiliCAS database, and have Turbomeca Makila engines more powerful than the Turmo systems used by the RAF's current Puma HC1s.
Eurocopter approached the MoD last October to offer the aircraft under a 10-year deal, to also include the provision of spares and a comprehensive logistics support package in conjunction with FR Aviation/Bristow Helicopters joint venture FB Heliservices.
This would be in addition to a five-year contract worth up to £100 million ($197 million) to support the UK's current Puma and Eurocopter Gazelle fleets
Eurocopter in mid-January submitted its final response for the latter requirement, with a contract award expected around June. MoD personnel are meanwhile understood to have flown to Portugal to inspect the secondhand Pumas, which an industry source says could be modified and delivered to the RAF within 12 months of contract signature.
The UK has previously acquired several secondhand Pumas from South Africa to boost its operational inventory of the type, which is currently in use in southern Iraq.
Other solutions being considered by the MoD include purchasing EH101 tactical transports from Denmark returning stored Westland Sea Kings to service and accelerating the acquisition of new medium-lift aircraft. Funding a "fix-to-field" package to bring the RAF's non-operational Boeing CH-47 Chinook HC3s into service, and a potential 10-year commercial lease deal are also options.
An MoD source confirms that a decision on a possible interim helicopter deal could be made within the coming weeks, but declines to provide further details.
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electric sheep you make the most logical argument for what the RAF should have been doing over the last few years. ORDERING MORE MERLINs and not this campaign to discredit a very versitile aircraft.
The other thing is hasn't the RAF operated more than 3 types of helecopter at once I do seam to remember Wessex used to be in service to.
The other thing is hasn't the RAF operated more than 3 types of helecopter at once I do seam to remember Wessex used to be in service to.
Last edited by NURSE; 8th Feb 2007 at 21:46.
I've nothing per se against the Merlin, and I applaud the efforts of many on this forum to back British industry. However, we cannot escape the fact that the critical shortfall theatre for us is Afghanistan. The Merlin simply does not have the disposable payload to provide the same service to the troops in that theatre in that level of kinetic threat as the CH47.
It is doing sterling work in Iraq, hats off to OC28 and his boys (& girls) who have worked hard to provide a valued capability to the commanders on the ground. BUT if the Merlin fleet was grounded (again) tomorrow then we could, at a push, back fill it with Puma / Sea King & Lynx. We simply couldn't replace the Chinooks in the 'Stan due to the DA / threat / nature of tasking involved. We would probably have to radically change the SoM of the troops if we tried to replace CH47 in theatre.
The greatest dis-service anyone can do to the Merlin is compare it to a Chinook. It isn't. It's a Merlin, and it has its own strengths and weaknesses.
The combination of the AH64 / CH47 works a treat in theatre, largely due to the efforts of the Westland staff in doing a good job on the Apaches. Agusta are looking at building F models for Italy, can't we have some as well?
Jacko, one point. Constantly bleating about how noisy a Chinook is compared to a Merlin is not a simple arguement. For covert, say pathfinder, insertions you have a point (unless they want to take a vehicle). Those who do this for a living will tell you that if you approach properly, at LL, where terrain permits, the noise (especially in battle) is irrelevant. Equally, flying over the isotropic beach which is South Iraq your noise will carry, whatever platform. A commander in a fight would rather have 40+ running out of a Chinook (which is a far more survivable platform) than 15-20 sliding down a Merlin ramp playing dodge the tail rotor!
On a serious note, buy a twin-turboprop (C27J / CASA 212 etc), fit it with armour and a good DAS, and offload some of the trivial "bus runs" that are always a feature when SH are in theatre for too long. Husband our scarce helo assets, employ them properly and replace them when they are worn out.
The root of the problem is that helicopters aren't sexy in purist Air Power terms. Ironic really that we've spent 20 years girding our loins for the TypHoon, whilst constantly delaying, or curtailing, RW projects then we get involved in a vicious shooting war where SH, AH & AT are the principle enablers. Might be a book in that...!
It is doing sterling work in Iraq, hats off to OC28 and his boys (& girls) who have worked hard to provide a valued capability to the commanders on the ground. BUT if the Merlin fleet was grounded (again) tomorrow then we could, at a push, back fill it with Puma / Sea King & Lynx. We simply couldn't replace the Chinooks in the 'Stan due to the DA / threat / nature of tasking involved. We would probably have to radically change the SoM of the troops if we tried to replace CH47 in theatre.
The greatest dis-service anyone can do to the Merlin is compare it to a Chinook. It isn't. It's a Merlin, and it has its own strengths and weaknesses.
The combination of the AH64 / CH47 works a treat in theatre, largely due to the efforts of the Westland staff in doing a good job on the Apaches. Agusta are looking at building F models for Italy, can't we have some as well?
Jacko, one point. Constantly bleating about how noisy a Chinook is compared to a Merlin is not a simple arguement. For covert, say pathfinder, insertions you have a point (unless they want to take a vehicle). Those who do this for a living will tell you that if you approach properly, at LL, where terrain permits, the noise (especially in battle) is irrelevant. Equally, flying over the isotropic beach which is South Iraq your noise will carry, whatever platform. A commander in a fight would rather have 40+ running out of a Chinook (which is a far more survivable platform) than 15-20 sliding down a Merlin ramp playing dodge the tail rotor!
On a serious note, buy a twin-turboprop (C27J / CASA 212 etc), fit it with armour and a good DAS, and offload some of the trivial "bus runs" that are always a feature when SH are in theatre for too long. Husband our scarce helo assets, employ them properly and replace them when they are worn out.
The root of the problem is that helicopters aren't sexy in purist Air Power terms. Ironic really that we've spent 20 years girding our loins for the TypHoon, whilst constantly delaying, or curtailing, RW projects then we get involved in a vicious shooting war where SH, AH & AT are the principle enablers. Might be a book in that...!
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So what happens if the chinook fleet is grounded? relying on a single type is not healthy and the chinook isn't always the answer what if you want to put a section of 8 on the ground? We need a mix of types in service and i would sugest merlin/chinook or merlin/ch53 is that mix and maybe the seaking and puma should be pensioned of.
Doesn't merlin have a fairly good integral DAS system already?
If the piece from flight is correct then it isn't more chinooks being procured its more pumas and if puma can carry a useful payload in Afghanistan why hasn't it been deployed there?
I do also seam to remember posters here decrying the deployment of Apache to support ops in Stan who a few months ago very pubically admitted they were wrong.
Lastly if the flight article is correct and we get 6 ex portugese pumas with different engines have we not generated another fleet with in a fleet with all the logistical/engineering problems that entails.
And can chinook be navalised at a sensible price? for the FAA isn't merlin a good comprimise as its already in Naval service there is a marine transport variant already in service with italy.
Doesn't merlin have a fairly good integral DAS system already?
If the piece from flight is correct then it isn't more chinooks being procured its more pumas and if puma can carry a useful payload in Afghanistan why hasn't it been deployed there?
I do also seam to remember posters here decrying the deployment of Apache to support ops in Stan who a few months ago very pubically admitted they were wrong.
Lastly if the flight article is correct and we get 6 ex portugese pumas with different engines have we not generated another fleet with in a fleet with all the logistical/engineering problems that entails.
And can chinook be navalised at a sensible price? for the FAA isn't merlin a good comprimise as its already in Naval service there is a marine transport variant already in service with italy.
Last edited by NURSE; 9th Feb 2007 at 09:50.
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Evaulu8tor your idea of a STOL fixed wing type actually has merit how many chinook hours are wasted in flying hub spoke type flights that an aircraft could do better but the payload is to small to be practical for a herc and how many herc sorties are there to lift loads just to big for chinook?
A STOL aircraft like C27J or CN295 might be a solution. How common is C130J and C27J in terms of equipment instrument layout proceedures etc?
A STOL aircraft like C27J or CN295 might be a solution. How common is C130J and C27J in terms of equipment instrument layout proceedures etc?
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I've heard there's a Puma HC2 on the way with upgraded enginges (Merkelas), upgraded avionics (two bean tins and some string would be an improvement ) and an extra fuel tank.
Now THAT is a short-term solution that will keep them going to 2022...
20 years too late, mind.
) and an extra fuel tank.Now THAT is a short-term solution that will keep them going to 2022...
20 years too late, mind.
Avoid imitations
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How about Blackhawks to replace Puma? To appease the "buy British" brigade they could be license built by Westlands and re-engined with RTM 322. 
Just like flared trousers, ideas like this come around every so often..... last time was in about 1979. It could possibly still work, IMHO.
Just like flared trousers, ideas like this come around every so often..... last time was in about 1979. It could possibly still work, IMHO.
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You are talking about introducing another helecopter with the training, spares and introduction to service timelines and disruption that would cause. Why not Bell 412 already in service new multi engine pilots already trained on it. AAC 212 crews could be converted to it.
I would sugest the reducton of transport types in service would be a better option. The idea of a puma upgrade is good however is it going to delay its replacement and lead us to another wessex or in the case of USN/USMC Ch46 position. It does fit this govts idea of doing defence on the cheap.Or are they planning on AW149 being delayed?
Where does the CH47 fleet go from here when are we going to need to look at major update. would we not be better returning th 6 HC3 to Beoing for rework to MH47G or at Least CH47F and gradually update the Chinook fleet to a digital aircraft?
I would sugest the reducton of transport types in service would be a better option. The idea of a puma upgrade is good however is it going to delay its replacement and lead us to another wessex or in the case of USN/USMC Ch46 position. It does fit this govts idea of doing defence on the cheap.Or are they planning on AW149 being delayed?
Where does the CH47 fleet go from here when are we going to need to look at major update. would we not be better returning th 6 HC3 to Beoing for rework to MH47G or at Least CH47F and gradually update the Chinook fleet to a digital aircraft?
Last edited by NURSE; 9th Feb 2007 at 22:49.
From MOD Contracts:
9th Feb 2007 Puma HC Mk1 Life extension
The Authority advises it's intention to place a contract to extend the useful lives of it's existing fleet of Puma aircraft to enable them to continue.....
9th Feb 2007 Puma HC Mk1 Life extension
The Authority advises it's intention to place a contract to extend the useful lives of it's existing fleet of Puma aircraft to enable them to continue.....
"The Authority advises it's intention to place a contract to extend the useful lives of it's existing fleet of Puma aircraft to enable them to continue....."
This is appalling!
Two incorrect apostrophes in one sentence?
This is appalling!
Two incorrect apostrophes in one sentence?
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Nurse
This has been the vacuous arguement played out many times - how do the yanks/french/many other forces cope? What if the Merlin is grounded, what happens in Iraq? It would be no different in an all Chinook fleet, except both theatres would be affected.
You probably haven't been to either op theatre, what do you think happens now? The Merlin is as big and is certainly more expensive overall, than the other types, so this question doesn't support your arguement for Chinook/Merlin mix. In fact Chinook/Puma or Chinook/Blackhawk is a more efficient mix.
So what happens if the chinook fleet is grounded?
what if you want to put a section of 8 on the ground?