Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
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WIWOWessex,
So you agree with Wokkameister, can you remember why we didn't want it? Just because we have it now doesn't justify the decision taken over 10 years ago. WM agrees with you when he says
, so your tirade towards him was uneccessary.
I guess WM has seen the real world, have you?
Time to go back to snooze mode at SY, you'll be safer there.
No we didn't want the Merlin
it is useful for Telic bus runs
Grow up and see the world as it really is!!
Time to go back to snooze mode at SY, you'll be safer there.
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Whoa there!
I Knew my post would inflame a bit of passion but.....
Compstall- Have operated in both theatres several times and take your point regards the crews mate. As for the blackhawks being tired....and the puma isn't? (not a dig at the puma guys, I have a lot of respect for what they do....before I make any more enemies)
WIWO- I won't take your remarks in the spirit in which they were intended, but I do respect you for fighting your corner.
None of us are CDS/CAS or the procurement minister, and so anything we offer up on here is opinion, nothing more. I stated what my opinion is, and if you don't agree, well fair enough. Called democracy apparently.
WM
Ps: Merlins still crap!
I Knew my post would inflame a bit of passion but.....
Compstall- Have operated in both theatres several times and take your point regards the crews mate. As for the blackhawks being tired....and the puma isn't? (not a dig at the puma guys, I have a lot of respect for what they do....before I make any more enemies)
WIWO- I won't take your remarks in the spirit in which they were intended, but I do respect you for fighting your corner.
None of us are CDS/CAS or the procurement minister, and so anything we offer up on here is opinion, nothing more. I stated what my opinion is, and if you don't agree, well fair enough. Called democracy apparently.
WM
Ps: Merlins still crap!
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WM good of you to reply. You do suffer from a little bit of Chinook bias - Merlin has some very valid roles eg when you want to get somewhere quietly and quickly. The Chinook is doing well at high altitude and if you want something big and heavy flying and then being told about how you carried 10 tonnes - over and over.
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So, a comparison of the CH 47/EH101 in metric:
Overall length 30.1m/22.8M
Fuselage length 15.87m/19.53m
Fuselage width 4.87m/4.61m
Fuselage Ht 5.59m/6.62m
Wheel base 7.87m/7.00m
Rotor Diameter 19.4m/18.6m
EH101 Empty 10.5 T maum 14.5 T
CH 47 Empty 12.5 T MAUM 24.5 T
Mmmm, so which one is big and heavy????????? Only when its doing its job!
Last edited by electric.sheep; 10th Jun 2007 at 19:55.
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OMG, how stupid of me! There was me thinking I was illustrating the relative sizes and weights of the EH101 and the CH47, and the only observation made is of the line drawing I used.
A bit like service writing, don't read the content, just check the spaces after the dot. Any other relevant points?
A bit like service writing, don't read the content, just check the spaces after the dot. Any other relevant points?
You only left one space between "dot." and "Any".
Perhaps Compressorstall did read the content, and read it thoroughly, realised you had used the wrong picture for the comparison you were making, and just wanted to be sure that you had used the weight and dimensions figures for the correct Merlin variant, otherwise your argument would be bol1ocks?
Not saying it is actually bol1ocks, looks about right to me, but it can get a bit pedantic in here sometimes.
Perhaps Compressorstall did read the content, and read it thoroughly, realised you had used the wrong picture for the comparison you were making, and just wanted to be sure that you had used the weight and dimensions figures for the correct Merlin variant, otherwise your argument would be bol1ocks?
Not saying it is actually bol1ocks, looks about right to me, but it can get a bit pedantic in here sometimes.
Thread Starter
How heavy would a Chinook be if you built it to modern standards of crashworthiness and H&S?
And the point isn't that Chinook doesn't offer some vital capabilities (triple hooks, etc.) it clearly does, and is clearly a useful (if vulnerable and noisy) asset. The point is just that Merlin's availability, speed and quietness make it every bit as useful - just in different ways, and for different things.
As to why people "Didn't want it" at the start, perhaps too many people had listened to narrow minded and indoctrinated Chinook operators? Perhaps people hadn't got a clue about what it could really do? Perhaps people judged it on the basis of the expensive and troubled (in their early days) grey ones?
But they want it now.
And the point isn't that Chinook doesn't offer some vital capabilities (triple hooks, etc.) it clearly does, and is clearly a useful (if vulnerable and noisy) asset. The point is just that Merlin's availability, speed and quietness make it every bit as useful - just in different ways, and for different things.
As to why people "Didn't want it" at the start, perhaps too many people had listened to narrow minded and indoctrinated Chinook operators? Perhaps people hadn't got a clue about what it could really do? Perhaps people judged it on the basis of the expensive and troubled (in their early days) grey ones?
But they want it now.
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Jacko,
Why pose a question, and then get all pre-menstrual when you don't get the answer you want?
You ask the rotary guys what they need, and you will get as many answers as there are types. If you can't extrapolate an answer from the egotistical crap then youre not a great journo, really?
Accusing the Chinook fraternity of bias and closed minds is spot on. So ask yourselves, why are the whole fleet so 100% convinced that we have the answer to the MOD's problems.
Is it:
A. We are all insane and you are the only sane person?
B. We might actually have the ideal cab for pretty much every task barring the niche that the Puma guys are filling very effectively.
Any aircraft with seats could effectively fulfill the Merlins role in Iraq. I know because we did it for 2 years. I've heard some absolute tosh quoted on here about the tactical advantage of a 'quieter' aircraft. BOŁ$^X.
Unless it has whisper mode, the enemy are always going to here a helicopter operating. Its just as dependant on terrain and wind direction as type.
The banter aside, I have a healthy respect for 28 Sqn, but it doesn't mean their aircraft is any good. I am a little bit more au fait with the contemporary battlefield, and if a Merlin can't make an IRT shout 60 miles away at 10000 feet on a +55C day....You look the widow in the eye and tell her why jobs in the SW of England were more important.
I'm a touche tired of all the snivelling armchair napoleans on this particular thread talking ill informed crap. Only one thing matters in todays battlespace, and that is what the troop on the ground wants or needs at any given time. I'm afraid if you are not a rotary mate with recent desert experience in either theatre, you will never grasp this concept and may as well try another thread.
Apologies if this offends anyone on 28, its not intended to. If it offends anyone else....get over it.
WM
Why pose a question, and then get all pre-menstrual when you don't get the answer you want?
You ask the rotary guys what they need, and you will get as many answers as there are types. If you can't extrapolate an answer from the egotistical crap then youre not a great journo, really?
Accusing the Chinook fraternity of bias and closed minds is spot on. So ask yourselves, why are the whole fleet so 100% convinced that we have the answer to the MOD's problems.
Is it:
A. We are all insane and you are the only sane person?
B. We might actually have the ideal cab for pretty much every task barring the niche that the Puma guys are filling very effectively.
Any aircraft with seats could effectively fulfill the Merlins role in Iraq. I know because we did it for 2 years. I've heard some absolute tosh quoted on here about the tactical advantage of a 'quieter' aircraft. BOŁ$^X.
Unless it has whisper mode, the enemy are always going to here a helicopter operating. Its just as dependant on terrain and wind direction as type.
The banter aside, I have a healthy respect for 28 Sqn, but it doesn't mean their aircraft is any good. I am a little bit more au fait with the contemporary battlefield, and if a Merlin can't make an IRT shout 60 miles away at 10000 feet on a +55C day....You look the widow in the eye and tell her why jobs in the SW of England were more important.
I'm a touche tired of all the snivelling armchair napoleans on this particular thread talking ill informed crap. Only one thing matters in todays battlespace, and that is what the troop on the ground wants or needs at any given time. I'm afraid if you are not a rotary mate with recent desert experience in either theatre, you will never grasp this concept and may as well try another thread.
Apologies if this offends anyone on 28, its not intended to. If it offends anyone else....get over it.
WM
Thread Starter
The Chinook is the only other UK platform that can do what the Merlins have been doing in Iraq BUT they could not do it so quietly, they could not do it with the same availability, they could not do it without being comprehensively dicked from take off to landing, and they are more prone to nastiness in brown out.
And many users now swear by the Merlin.
Moreover, if you think that the Chinook isn't FAR LOUDER than Merlin, with a unique acoustic signature that is more directional, then you've been flying them much too long, or you've never heard the difference between the noise and 'thump' you experience on the ground when one flies over at a distance at which you wouldn't even hear a Merlin.
I may be a "snivelling armchair napoleon" and I certainly am not a "rotary mate with recent desert experience", but I don't need to be one to spot your exaggerated and arrogant boasting and ignorant dismissal of an aircraft that's proving to be as useful as your own.
And many users now swear by the Merlin.
Moreover, if you think that the Chinook isn't FAR LOUDER than Merlin, with a unique acoustic signature that is more directional, then you've been flying them much too long, or you've never heard the difference between the noise and 'thump' you experience on the ground when one flies over at a distance at which you wouldn't even hear a Merlin.
I may be a "snivelling armchair napoleon" and I certainly am not a "rotary mate with recent desert experience", but I don't need to be one to spot your exaggerated and arrogant boasting and ignorant dismissal of an aircraft that's proving to be as useful as your own.
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BUT they could not do it so quietly, they could not do it with the same availability, they could not do it without being comprehensively dicked from take off to landing, and they are more prone to nastiness in brown out.
Hansard - Defence
6 Nov 2006:
Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what percentage of (a) the overall military helicopter fleet and (b) the helicopter fleet deployed in (i) Iraq and (ii) Afghanistan are considered (A) fit for service and (B) battle-worthy, broken down by helicopter type. [98556]
Mr. Ingram: The MOD does not use the terms fit for service and battle-worthy in describing helicopters. We use the term “fit for purpose”, which means those that are available, reliable, airworthy and capable of carrying out their planned missions on a given date.
6 Nov 2006 : Column 808W
Helicopter type Fit for purpose (Percentage)
A109 77
Apache 60
Chinook 61
Gazelle AH1 76
Lynx MK 3 and 8 57
Lynx MK 7 and 9 59
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
Sea King MK 3/3A 53
Sea King MK4/6C 51
Sea King MK 5 53
Sea King MK 7 56
The percentages shown in the table indicate the proportion of the helicopter fleet available to front-line commands, which are considered “fit for purpose”. These numbers will vary; the figures shown are the average for the period from 1 June to 30 September 2006.
All UK helicopters deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan are considered fit for purpose, but not all will be available for operational flying each day due to routine maintenance requirements. However, these factors are taken into consideration, and sufficient helicopters are provided to meet current operational requirements. We continue to review these operational requirements and adjust as necessary.
6 Nov 2006:
Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what percentage of (a) the overall military helicopter fleet and (b) the helicopter fleet deployed in (i) Iraq and (ii) Afghanistan are considered (A) fit for service and (B) battle-worthy, broken down by helicopter type. [98556]
Mr. Ingram: The MOD does not use the terms fit for service and battle-worthy in describing helicopters. We use the term “fit for purpose”, which means those that are available, reliable, airworthy and capable of carrying out their planned missions on a given date.
6 Nov 2006 : Column 808W
Helicopter type Fit for purpose (Percentage)
A109 77
Apache 60
Chinook 61
Gazelle AH1 76
Lynx MK 3 and 8 57
Lynx MK 7 and 9 59
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
Sea King MK 3/3A 53
Sea King MK4/6C 51
Sea King MK 5 53
Sea King MK 7 56
The percentages shown in the table indicate the proportion of the helicopter fleet available to front-line commands, which are considered “fit for purpose”. These numbers will vary; the figures shown are the average for the period from 1 June to 30 September 2006.
All UK helicopters deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan are considered fit for purpose, but not all will be available for operational flying each day due to routine maintenance requirements. However, these factors are taken into consideration, and sufficient helicopters are provided to meet current operational requirements. We continue to review these operational requirements and adjust as necessary.
I accept there were probably some in the RAF who “didn’t want” their Merlin.
But in the early 80s, the RN was certainly looking forward to the dawn of a new decade (90s!) with their 103 ASW EH101s. At the 5/8 ratio (i.e. 5 Merlins could provide the capability of 8 SK HAS Mk5/6) their ASW capability would effectively be more than doubled. And orders for new ASW SKs were still being placed years later, so both were planned to be in service together for a long time.
And the Junglies’ dissent lasted a microsecond when they discovered all 103 would have a secondary Commando role, to supplement (not replace) SK4, which weren’t all delivered at the time. Another huge increase in capability, to meet the perceived threats of the day, and beyond. The only perceived difficulty was the SK4 had, and still has, a far better DAS, ILS, Comms etc.
The events of 1989 changed things entirely. I did not envy the decision makers at the time – the “procurement cycle” meant that most development, and many production, contracts for Merlin had been let, and completed, years before. The recent Nimrod AEW fiasco was eating up “air” funding. Concurrently, FRS2 and Lynx 8, and various RAF programmes, were well advanced. Even simple things, like the change in comms channel spacing, were hugely expensive. (We tend to forget these things aren’t dreamt up by MoD, but imposed upon them). Remember that, in a design sense, many Merlin avionic systems pre-date those of the SK6. I saw fully functional rigs in 1985. (Perhaps this is one of the problems undermining Merlin. Many avionic systems required a mid-life update before they were ever fitted to airframes, but didn’t get it. When the assembled aircraft arrived, many operators who had converted were immediately aware of some backward steps). It was definitely a case of, having committed so much money, we needed to adapt what we were getting, not start afresh. Yes, I believe politics were involved regarding Westland (and others) but I think most involved would blame the complexities of the international collaboration, rather than Westland. (I am an unashamed supporter of Westland. They have never let me down, or tried to stiff me; not once. Not many I can say that about).
Having gone through all that, it would take a very brave man to select other than Merlin for the RAF.
But in the early 80s, the RN was certainly looking forward to the dawn of a new decade (90s!) with their 103 ASW EH101s. At the 5/8 ratio (i.e. 5 Merlins could provide the capability of 8 SK HAS Mk5/6) their ASW capability would effectively be more than doubled. And orders for new ASW SKs were still being placed years later, so both were planned to be in service together for a long time.
And the Junglies’ dissent lasted a microsecond when they discovered all 103 would have a secondary Commando role, to supplement (not replace) SK4, which weren’t all delivered at the time. Another huge increase in capability, to meet the perceived threats of the day, and beyond. The only perceived difficulty was the SK4 had, and still has, a far better DAS, ILS, Comms etc.
The events of 1989 changed things entirely. I did not envy the decision makers at the time – the “procurement cycle” meant that most development, and many production, contracts for Merlin had been let, and completed, years before. The recent Nimrod AEW fiasco was eating up “air” funding. Concurrently, FRS2 and Lynx 8, and various RAF programmes, were well advanced. Even simple things, like the change in comms channel spacing, were hugely expensive. (We tend to forget these things aren’t dreamt up by MoD, but imposed upon them). Remember that, in a design sense, many Merlin avionic systems pre-date those of the SK6. I saw fully functional rigs in 1985. (Perhaps this is one of the problems undermining Merlin. Many avionic systems required a mid-life update before they were ever fitted to airframes, but didn’t get it. When the assembled aircraft arrived, many operators who had converted were immediately aware of some backward steps). It was definitely a case of, having committed so much money, we needed to adapt what we were getting, not start afresh. Yes, I believe politics were involved regarding Westland (and others) but I think most involved would blame the complexities of the international collaboration, rather than Westland. (I am an unashamed supporter of Westland. They have never let me down, or tried to stiff me; not once. Not many I can say that about).
Having gone through all that, it would take a very brave man to select other than Merlin for the RAF.
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HiLife - What's the purpose of you post? Are you pointing out that Merlin has a lower % that Chinny? If you are, seeing as the figures are Nov 06, so take into account the period during which Merlin is still recovering from its Tail Rotor issues and now Tail cone corrosion issues. Given both of those, I beleive Merlins hours doubled last year as long lead time spares to solve the TR crisis come through in useable numbers. If that trend continues, and IMOS performs, then Merlins availability will reach the intended target in due course. This is not a slight on the Chinook at 60%, stats are stats, but being an older airframe, you cannot expect it to keep up with a newer aircraft (once that one has finished teething).
Ps - Hasn't it gone quiet about replacing the Light Utility capability, seems SK4 will continue being 'mis-used' with Broadsword for some time to come.
Ps - Hasn't it gone quiet about replacing the Light Utility capability, seems SK4 will continue being 'mis-used' with Broadsword for some time to come.
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Intuition vs evidence...
Originally posted by Mr-AEO
Originally posted by Hilife
The evidence seems to suggest precisely the opposite, Mr-AEO. 
stats are stats, but being an older airframe, you cannot expect it to keep up with a newer aircraft
Helicopter type Fit for purpose (Percentage)
...
Chinook 61
...
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
...
Chinook 61
...
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
Helicopter type Fit for purpose (Percentage)
A109 77
Apache 60
Chinook 61
Gazelle AH1 76
Lynx MK 3 and 8 57
Lynx MK 7 and 9 59
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
Sea King MK 3/3A 53
Sea King MK4/6C 51
Sea King MK 5 53
Sea King MK 7 56
The percentages shown in the table indicate the proportion of the helicopter fleet available to front-line commands, which are considered “fit for purpose”.
Doesn't the overall FFP rate (average v low sixties if you go by nos of airframes) just show how little investment in terms of support is being put into some of the hardest-worked bits of HMAF. Particularly when there are two full-scale combat ops on top of the normal burden. ISTR NATO readiness requirements were in the mid 70s not so many years ago - though this lot would probably go pedantry overdrive on the different definitions. When the overall force is in this state, isn't "my cabs better than your cab" missing the point somewhat?
A109 77
Apache 60
Chinook 61
Gazelle AH1 76
Lynx MK 3 and 8 57
Lynx MK 7 and 9 59
Merlin MK 1 48
Merlin MK 3 53
Puma 73
Sea King MK 3/3A 53
Sea King MK4/6C 51
Sea King MK 5 53
Sea King MK 7 56
The percentages shown in the table indicate the proportion of the helicopter fleet available to front-line commands, which are considered “fit for purpose”.
Doesn't the overall FFP rate (average v low sixties if you go by nos of airframes) just show how little investment in terms of support is being put into some of the hardest-worked bits of HMAF. Particularly when there are two full-scale combat ops on top of the normal burden. ISTR NATO readiness requirements were in the mid 70s not so many years ago - though this lot would probably go pedantry overdrive on the different definitions. When the overall force is in this state, isn't "my cabs better than your cab" missing the point somewhat?
AEO
Having spent 9-years on Chinooks at Odiham back in the early years, yes I am more than a little biased. However, even though a mature platform when she entered into service with the RAF we had some dark days in the 1980’s, but she was a bloody good helicopter non the less.
Regarding my point. With the possible exception of the WAH64, the Merlin’s are surely our most modern helicopter, yet the Hansard response suggests that serviceability rates are the worst in the JHC fleet. Why is that and before lack of funding is quoted, surely this problem should role out across the rotary fleet?
I don’t doubt that things are improving and that in time the Merlin may well end up being a very good platform. However, if there is something else out there that would do the task more effectively and at less cost, then lets not buy from Finmeccanica just because it offers security for British jobs. There must be well over a 250,000 people in the UK aviation industry and AW represents only a mere fraction of our UK skills base.
Much as I am very patriotic, the cars on my drive are built in Scandinavia and Germany, the white goods in my kitchen are all German and my Hi-Fi originates from the Far East. Why, because for me they offer excellent quality, reliability at a competitive price.
For those that think we should buy AW because if secures British job, I would ask what car do you drive? We laid-off 30,000 miners because the numbers didn’t make sense, so let’s not stick with a home grown product IF it’s not what JHC wants.
I fear that AW is waiting for improvements from the VH-71A program to work there way back across the Pond and with this program slipping, should we be asking JHC to continue to wait for a greatly improved 101?
Just my opinion……
Having spent 9-years on Chinooks at Odiham back in the early years, yes I am more than a little biased. However, even though a mature platform when she entered into service with the RAF we had some dark days in the 1980’s, but she was a bloody good helicopter non the less.
Regarding my point. With the possible exception of the WAH64, the Merlin’s are surely our most modern helicopter, yet the Hansard response suggests that serviceability rates are the worst in the JHC fleet. Why is that and before lack of funding is quoted, surely this problem should role out across the rotary fleet?
I don’t doubt that things are improving and that in time the Merlin may well end up being a very good platform. However, if there is something else out there that would do the task more effectively and at less cost, then lets not buy from Finmeccanica just because it offers security for British jobs. There must be well over a 250,000 people in the UK aviation industry and AW represents only a mere fraction of our UK skills base.
Much as I am very patriotic, the cars on my drive are built in Scandinavia and Germany, the white goods in my kitchen are all German and my Hi-Fi originates from the Far East. Why, because for me they offer excellent quality, reliability at a competitive price.
For those that think we should buy AW because if secures British job, I would ask what car do you drive? We laid-off 30,000 miners because the numbers didn’t make sense, so let’s not stick with a home grown product IF it’s not what JHC wants.
I fear that AW is waiting for improvements from the VH-71A program to work there way back across the Pond and with this program slipping, should we be asking JHC to continue to wait for a greatly improved 101?
Just my opinion……
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HiLife,
Firstly a caveat. I'm not current on Merlin so if anyone is, and my comments need updating, please feel free!
In short, the reasons for the low % for Merlin may well be down to the fact that they are still recovering from the well publicised Tail Rotor crisis which hit the fleet in 2005. Because of the long lead time of the items need to replace the faulty components, and the maintenance burden of a restrictive inspection regime, the availability of the Merlin was hit very hard indeed. The fact that they have gone from about 2000 hrs in 2005 to 7000 or so hours in 2006 is a massive improvement. Like I said, I expect this to get better and better under IMOS.
Chinook being supported by TLCS should also improve.
As for buying from AW or WHL. Who else in the UK has the licence/capability to provide us with a Military Medium Lift Helicopter? Who else has the infrasatructure and expertise to design major new modifications (such as HEAT) to that helicopters and maintain the safety clearance? I cannot think of anyone in the UK with that Helo expertise. If you really want to keep UK jobs, it's our only option - plus I live in Yeovil so need a retirement job.
Firstly a caveat. I'm not current on Merlin so if anyone is, and my comments need updating, please feel free!
In short, the reasons for the low % for Merlin may well be down to the fact that they are still recovering from the well publicised Tail Rotor crisis which hit the fleet in 2005. Because of the long lead time of the items need to replace the faulty components, and the maintenance burden of a restrictive inspection regime, the availability of the Merlin was hit very hard indeed. The fact that they have gone from about 2000 hrs in 2005 to 7000 or so hours in 2006 is a massive improvement. Like I said, I expect this to get better and better under IMOS.
Chinook being supported by TLCS should also improve.
As for buying from AW or WHL. Who else in the UK has the licence/capability to provide us with a Military Medium Lift Helicopter? Who else has the infrasatructure and expertise to design major new modifications (such as HEAT) to that helicopters and maintain the safety clearance? I cannot think of anyone in the UK with that Helo expertise. If you really want to keep UK jobs, it's our only option - plus I live in Yeovil so need a retirement job
.
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If you really want to keep UK jobs, it's our only option
I understand that keeping jobs is in itself a noble aim, but at the cost of lives?
EH101 Empty 10.5 T maum 14.5 T
CH 47 Empty 12.5 T MAUM 24.5 T
CH 47 Empty 12.5 T MAUM 24.5 T
The merlin is cleared, when required, to 15.6T.
I know it's trivia but it all counts.