Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
Thread Starter
Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
OK, so Future Rotorcraft Capability - Attack is being taken care of via Future Lynx and the existing Apache, and FLYNX (plus Merlin CSP) will also address Future Rotorcraft Capability - Find.
But that won't be for ages yet, so what about in the short term?
Is the UOR for an ISTAR Lynx replacement in Iraq/'Stan (Project Stockwell?) likely to be best addressed by a COMR procurement of A109, AW139, or EC135? Or is there no money in the pot, and will the Lynxes have to either soldier on or be replaced by an existing in-service asset - however unsuitable? (Broadsword Sea King, Merlin or P4 Puma, perhaps?)
And with all the money going on FLYNX and Merlin CSP what will (or what should) be done to provide Interim Medium Lift?
A Puma upgrade, together with an influx of second hand Pumas? The ex-Portugese Pumas are rumoured to be coming this way - in Portugal, at least?
Carson blades for the Commandos and Sea King 6CRs? And more Sea King 6CRs? (What is the frame mod that people used to say in the same breath as Carson - Frame 90? Frame 290? Frame 27?)
Or will it be another COMR solution - Super Puma/Cougar or AW139/149, perhaps?
But that won't be for ages yet, so what about in the short term?
Is the UOR for an ISTAR Lynx replacement in Iraq/'Stan (Project Stockwell?) likely to be best addressed by a COMR procurement of A109, AW139, or EC135? Or is there no money in the pot, and will the Lynxes have to either soldier on or be replaced by an existing in-service asset - however unsuitable? (Broadsword Sea King, Merlin or P4 Puma, perhaps?)
And with all the money going on FLYNX and Merlin CSP what will (or what should) be done to provide Interim Medium Lift?
A Puma upgrade, together with an influx of second hand Pumas? The ex-Portugese Pumas are rumoured to be coming this way - in Portugal, at least?
Carson blades for the Commandos and Sea King 6CRs? And more Sea King 6CRs? (What is the frame mod that people used to say in the same breath as Carson - Frame 90? Frame 290? Frame 27?)
Or will it be another COMR solution - Super Puma/Cougar or AW139/149, perhaps?
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Jack,
Haven't you realised yet - no one is listening! To you, to me, to the operators.
Nothing to see here - move along.
An NAO on the significant BH/SH lift shortfall, 2 SH heavy (understatement) operational Theatres and the most telling aspect of all an infantry CO and Brigade Commander doing the rounds saying that the thing they want most is more rotary lift.
What on earth are we doing with Carson blades and Mk6s - on todays battlefield should the UK really allow its troops (sailors (Royal Marines), soldiers and airman) to be operating such antiquated equipment?
If money is that tight - then re-role the Merlin ASWs (must be cheaper than paying off the Danes) - if that new RAF Merlin Sqn ever does get off the ground. Increase the capability in need (SH) and reduce (sorry keep on high readiness (mothball!) that which is not required at the moment (ASW).
But in answer to your question - at the speed of light, nothing is happening and just like body armour,Hercules fires and the Falklands - it takes history to repeat itself or a fatal accident before someone realises that maybe, just maybe that particular risk should not have been taken.
Good luck with your fishing Jack - I think that you will find that it has all stalled.
But don't worry, we have Typhoon - that will be of use.....or answer B!
Haven't you realised yet - no one is listening! To you, to me, to the operators.
Nothing to see here - move along.
An NAO on the significant BH/SH lift shortfall, 2 SH heavy (understatement) operational Theatres and the most telling aspect of all an infantry CO and Brigade Commander doing the rounds saying that the thing they want most is more rotary lift.
What on earth are we doing with Carson blades and Mk6s - on todays battlefield should the UK really allow its troops (sailors (Royal Marines), soldiers and airman) to be operating such antiquated equipment?
If money is that tight - then re-role the Merlin ASWs (must be cheaper than paying off the Danes) - if that new RAF Merlin Sqn ever does get off the ground. Increase the capability in need (SH) and reduce (sorry keep on high readiness (mothball!) that which is not required at the moment (ASW).
But in answer to your question - at the speed of light, nothing is happening and just like body armour,Hercules fires and the Falklands - it takes history to repeat itself or a fatal accident before someone realises that maybe, just maybe that particular risk should not have been taken.
Good luck with your fishing Jack - I think that you will find that it has all stalled.
But don't worry, we have Typhoon - that will be of use.....or answer B!
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If money is that tight - then re-role the Merlin ASWs (must be cheaper than paying off the Danes) - if that new RAF Merlin Sqn ever does get off the ground. Increase the capability in need (SH) and reduce (sorry keep on high readiness (mothball!) that which is not required at the moment (ASW).
But in answer to your question - at the speed of light, nothing is happening
.Overall MM4, you would appear to be a Sun reader.
Thread Starter
Does it need to be either/or?
With the shortfall in helicopter lift identified by the NAO, and with that shortfall having been exacerbated by unforseen demands in Iraq/Afghanistan, surely a multi-pronged attack on the problem is what is needed?
While the SK4/6 may be limited in hot and high conditions, it is better than nothing, and the Carson mod does sound as though it would make a real difference to performance. I just wish someone would put me out of my misery and remind me of the frame mod (and any other mods being proposed as part of the package) and I do wonder how many redundant SK5/6 are sitting around available for conversion to 6CR standards - and for subsequent Carsonisation.
I'd also have thought that DEC UW or whoever is responsible for ASW needs to be simply told that he is going to lose some of his assets - it's a Cold War capability and there are more pressing uses for these helicopters. Surely the ease of converting Royal Navy Merlins was demonstrated during Operation Iraqi Freedom, when four Merlin HM.Mk 1 aircraft were converted from their anti submarine configuration to a fleet protection utility helicopter configuration - achieving the role change at sea, in only 14 hours. The anti submarine warfare suite was completely removed, and stretchers for were installed for the medevac role, with troop seats, a weapons carrier and a light machine gun. It doesn't sound like rocket science, and even without a ramp, a de-ASWed Merlin would surely be a useful tool?
Aren't there surplus aircraft that aren't being CSPed, too? Though these lack the dedicated transport version's rear loading ramp, they could surely be converted to a Commando configuration, and as former ASW aircraft they are already navalised, with blade and tailboom folding. This would presumably make them particularly useful for 'amphibious lift', and wasn't that identified as a particular shortfall in the National Audit Office report on Battlefield Helicopters in April 2004?
Not doing so smacks of the sort of thinking that is delaying putting a Storm Shadow on the Nimrod MRA4 - the DEC who paid for them doesn't need this capability, so priority is being given to equipment for a role that is (or should be) a lower priority.
And weren't the Merlins always supposed to be 'role convertible' like the ASW Sea Kings were? Before the Mk 4 Commandos were clapped out, weighed down by DAS, etc. and over-stretched, they were always to be augmented by hastily stripped out ASW aircraft - and that happened in the Falklands (?) and Granby IIRC. Or did that plan go out of the window when the buy dropped to 44?
I'm all for getting things done before next summer, and would love to be reassured that something along those lines is happening, and I realise that just because this ill-informed hack is not aware of it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
But no-one seems to have much confidence that anything is happening, and after the brief flurry of "We'll give the troops what they need"s from grinning Tony, everything seems to have gone ominously quiet, and the things that we thought were happening short-term seem to have gone into reverse (Dansk Merlins, Chinook 3 fix-to-field).
Those I've spoken to in the SH world seem to feel a little let down and cheated since nothing has actually happened since Tony and Des told them they could have whatever they wanted.
If positive things are happening, it would be good for everyone to know that, I'd have thought.
With the shortfall in helicopter lift identified by the NAO, and with that shortfall having been exacerbated by unforseen demands in Iraq/Afghanistan, surely a multi-pronged attack on the problem is what is needed?
While the SK4/6 may be limited in hot and high conditions, it is better than nothing, and the Carson mod does sound as though it would make a real difference to performance. I just wish someone would put me out of my misery and remind me of the frame mod (and any other mods being proposed as part of the package) and I do wonder how many redundant SK5/6 are sitting around available for conversion to 6CR standards - and for subsequent Carsonisation.
I'd also have thought that DEC UW or whoever is responsible for ASW needs to be simply told that he is going to lose some of his assets - it's a Cold War capability and there are more pressing uses for these helicopters. Surely the ease of converting Royal Navy Merlins was demonstrated during Operation Iraqi Freedom, when four Merlin HM.Mk 1 aircraft were converted from their anti submarine configuration to a fleet protection utility helicopter configuration - achieving the role change at sea, in only 14 hours. The anti submarine warfare suite was completely removed, and stretchers for were installed for the medevac role, with troop seats, a weapons carrier and a light machine gun. It doesn't sound like rocket science, and even without a ramp, a de-ASWed Merlin would surely be a useful tool?
Aren't there surplus aircraft that aren't being CSPed, too? Though these lack the dedicated transport version's rear loading ramp, they could surely be converted to a Commando configuration, and as former ASW aircraft they are already navalised, with blade and tailboom folding. This would presumably make them particularly useful for 'amphibious lift', and wasn't that identified as a particular shortfall in the National Audit Office report on Battlefield Helicopters in April 2004?
Not doing so smacks of the sort of thinking that is delaying putting a Storm Shadow on the Nimrod MRA4 - the DEC who paid for them doesn't need this capability, so priority is being given to equipment for a role that is (or should be) a lower priority.
And weren't the Merlins always supposed to be 'role convertible' like the ASW Sea Kings were? Before the Mk 4 Commandos were clapped out, weighed down by DAS, etc. and over-stretched, they were always to be augmented by hastily stripped out ASW aircraft - and that happened in the Falklands (?) and Granby IIRC. Or did that plan go out of the window when the buy dropped to 44?
I'm all for getting things done before next summer, and would love to be reassured that something along those lines is happening, and I realise that just because this ill-informed hack is not aware of it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
But no-one seems to have much confidence that anything is happening, and after the brief flurry of "We'll give the troops what they need"s from grinning Tony, everything seems to have gone ominously quiet, and the things that we thought were happening short-term seem to have gone into reverse (Dansk Merlins, Chinook 3 fix-to-field).
Those I've spoken to in the SH world seem to feel a little let down and cheated since nothing has actually happened since Tony and Des told them they could have whatever they wanted.
If positive things are happening, it would be good for everyone to know that, I'd have thought.
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Jacko,
You raise a good deal of issues in discussing the use of the Mk1 Merlin. I myself would like to know the detailed answers to the various questions that you raise.
I guess that we won't need more lift in Iraq because soon we'll be out of there. w.r.t the Afghanistan; the amphib lift would be a bit pointless so the naval mod's eg fold etc, won't matter ashore.
If we assume that there are excess Mk1. To re-role they would need clearing of their ADAS (SONAR), 903/903A (SONICS) and Sonobuoy Dispenser + any other excess seats/racking (as you say, a role fit, although the lad's and lasses at Culdrose may disagree!). Load lifting is limited - they don't have the same cargo hook or lift frame; no DAS;no armour seating; no SF or Air/Gnd comms; no Sat Comms; no NVG; no ramp; excess Mission System equipment. All in all a very significant mod package to convert the Mk1 to a really useful capability that can defend itself from manpads and the like. i'm not saying it can't be done but would expect it to be at least 6 months to a year design + 6 months Trials/Integration testing + 6 months to mod the aircraft (dependingon how many you need). Plus, is the Merlin cleared to operate over 43 degrees?
You refer to the Mk1 in Telic. To my knowledge they didn't have DAS, Air to Gnd comms, Sat Phone, medium load lift capability; this wouldn't be much use in Afghanistan right now.
Also, I expect an aircrew type person would offer comment on the ability to generate the crews; considering the potential mod time, it should be feasible.
Other options to lease or upgrade Puma a would, I hazard, be achievable quicker than the Mk1 option.
PS - i wouldn't bet on recovering Mk6 for Carson, more like spare Mk4, this will keep the mod pacakge for theatre entry bits and bobs to a minimum - but don't know for sure, just guessing.
Also, I think Stn 290 and 243 ring a bell, but you need a current jungly AEO to give you the definitive answer.
You raise a good deal of issues in discussing the use of the Mk1 Merlin. I myself would like to know the detailed answers to the various questions that you raise.
I guess that we won't need more lift in Iraq because soon we'll be out of there. w.r.t the Afghanistan; the amphib lift would be a bit pointless so the naval mod's eg fold etc, won't matter ashore.
If we assume that there are excess Mk1. To re-role they would need clearing of their ADAS (SONAR), 903/903A (SONICS) and Sonobuoy Dispenser + any other excess seats/racking (as you say, a role fit, although the lad's and lasses at Culdrose may disagree!). Load lifting is limited - they don't have the same cargo hook or lift frame; no DAS;no armour seating; no SF or Air/Gnd comms; no Sat Comms; no NVG; no ramp; excess Mission System equipment. All in all a very significant mod package to convert the Mk1 to a really useful capability that can defend itself from manpads and the like. i'm not saying it can't be done but would expect it to be at least 6 months to a year design + 6 months Trials/Integration testing + 6 months to mod the aircraft (dependingon how many you need). Plus, is the Merlin cleared to operate over 43 degrees?
You refer to the Mk1 in Telic. To my knowledge they didn't have DAS, Air to Gnd comms, Sat Phone, medium load lift capability; this wouldn't be much use in Afghanistan right now.
Also, I expect an aircrew type person would offer comment on the ability to generate the crews; considering the potential mod time, it should be feasible.
Other options to lease or upgrade Puma a would, I hazard, be achievable quicker than the Mk1 option.
PS - i wouldn't bet on recovering Mk6 for Carson, more like spare Mk4, this will keep the mod pacakge for theatre entry bits and bobs to a minimum - but don't know for sure, just guessing.
Also, I think Stn 290 and 243 ring a bell, but you need a current jungly AEO to give you the definitive answer.
Thread Starter
Excellent, Smithers!
That's all good stuff that this dumba$$ hadn't really considered!
So what Puma options are being considered? Do you give any credence to the Portugese rumour, or do you think a COMR lease of Super Puma/Cougar is more likely.
Now all we need is a Hairy Arm Corps type to tell us about 'Stockwell' - will it be eight 109s or eight 135s, I wonder?
That's all good stuff that this dumba$$ hadn't really considered!
So what Puma options are being considered? Do you give any credence to the Portugese rumour, or do you think a COMR lease of Super Puma/Cougar is more likely.
Now all we need is a Hairy Arm Corps type to tell us about 'Stockwell' - will it be eight 109s or eight 135s, I wonder?
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you probably have access to Janes defence weekly?
look at Page 9 of the edition 21 Jun 06 - article by Tom Ripley. although a bit out of date, it does show that the MOD is looking at more than 20 helo's and the basic construct remains the same.
now, wheres that money we need??...........
look at Page 9 of the edition 21 Jun 06 - article by Tom Ripley. although a bit out of date, it does show that the MOD is looking at more than 20 helo's and the basic construct remains the same.
now, wheres that money we need??...........
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Jacko,
Stockwell has a cunning plan. So cunning you could stick a foxes tail on it and call it professor of cunning.
All i can tell you is that a bloke called Santa is involved.
Stockwell briefed the press on everything about 2 weeks ago. 40 odd press hacks where there. Did you not get an invite?
Jeep
Stockwell has a cunning plan. So cunning you could stick a foxes tail on it and call it professor of cunning.
All i can tell you is that a bloke called Santa is involved.
Stockwell briefed the press on everything about 2 weeks ago. 40 odd press hacks where there. Did you not get an invite?
Jeep
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Be Careful
Jungly AEO,
Just before you think that you are qualified to spout off about the UK AH, just be very careful on what you are saying. I for one have no love for Wastelands, DTI or politicians - but have you spoken or seen the UK AH on Ops.
Anything strike you as a bit different than our US 'off the shelf' version - you know a few simple things that make it a far superior aircraft for the customer on the ground.
If you are still stumped - have a look at how much is on the rails of a UK Apache on Ops compared to a US one (that'll be down to UK engines). Whilst you are looking, have a look at some of the other bespoke UK stuff that the US now want (infact I think that they have now finished their mod).
I do believe that the whole Support Helicopter fleet could do with a little bit of re-investment but just be careful where you think you believe the money should come from.
For once (on the whole) UK industry got the UK AH about right (still teething and developing - but going in the right direction). I would put myself in the Front Seat of UK model rather than a US one anytime. One thing I do agree on though is the extortionate prices that Westlands charge - not just with AH. Whoever writes the contracts is surely being fed a very substantial lunch!
Just before you think that you are qualified to spout off about the UK AH, just be very careful on what you are saying. I for one have no love for Wastelands, DTI or politicians - but have you spoken or seen the UK AH on Ops.
Anything strike you as a bit different than our US 'off the shelf' version - you know a few simple things that make it a far superior aircraft for the customer on the ground.
If you are still stumped - have a look at how much is on the rails of a UK Apache on Ops compared to a US one (that'll be down to UK engines). Whilst you are looking, have a look at some of the other bespoke UK stuff that the US now want (infact I think that they have now finished their mod).
I do believe that the whole Support Helicopter fleet could do with a little bit of re-investment but just be careful where you think you believe the money should come from.
For once (on the whole) UK industry got the UK AH about right (still teething and developing - but going in the right direction). I would put myself in the Front Seat of UK model rather than a US one anytime. One thing I do agree on though is the extortionate prices that Westlands charge - not just with AH. Whoever writes the contracts is surely being fed a very substantial lunch!
Avoid imitations
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"A Puma upgrade, together with an influx of second hand Pumas? The ex-Portugese Pumas are rumoured to be coming this way - in Portugal, at least?"
Aha - another "end of life upgrade", eh?
If going for the Portugese Pumas, just make sure someone looks under BOTH engine cowlings before paying for them......... Oh, hush my mouth
Aha - another "end of life upgrade", eh?
If going for the Portugese Pumas, just make sure someone looks under BOTH engine cowlings before paying for them......... Oh, hush my mouth
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FS,
My you are touchy about AH moans. I am very glad we went for the RR engines as well as the 'mod' you hint at, whoever decided on that needs a medal. The cost of doing business with the 'middle man' at Westlands is proving to be very expensive. Check out the price of an AH helmet from our sole supplier compared to the cost to uncle sam and you have the tip of the iceberg. The cost in money and time of software changes? ... dont get me started.
At some point in the future I think you will be able to enter a UK grid into the AH from the cockpit KU. Just don't hold your breath.
Jeep
My you are touchy about AH moans. I am very glad we went for the RR engines as well as the 'mod' you hint at, whoever decided on that needs a medal. The cost of doing business with the 'middle man' at Westlands is proving to be very expensive. Check out the price of an AH helmet from our sole supplier compared to the cost to uncle sam and you have the tip of the iceberg. The cost in money and time of software changes? ... dont get me started.
At some point in the future I think you will be able to enter a UK grid into the AH from the cockpit KU. Just don't hold your breath.
Jeep
g moaning!!!
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Unless you know about something that the politicians aren't telling us until after the next election......or the invasion. Just tell me it's not the French again
Bit of a blast from the past, but rather than start a brand new thread...
It seems that the answer to JN's question may be 'more second hand Pumas'
Flight - UK nears a decision on interim helicopter deal
It seems that the answer to JN's question may be 'more second hand Pumas'
Flight - UK nears a decision on interim helicopter deal
Gentlemen, all sound points and well made. The sad truth is that we're now (with the benefit of 100% hindsight) paying the full price for the politically expedient decision to buy the Merlin Mk3 back in '95. All the military advice said buy more CH47 -there was space on the line and the unit cost was far cheaper than the Merlin. But, made in the UK was too attractive politically. I did read the other day, though, that AW are negotiating with Boeing to get a CH47F licence to produce replacement Chinooks for the Italians, could we add a few on..?
As for the Merlin Mk1, as an SH platform it's a bit of a red herring. The TELIC re-role didn't involve any overland for obvious reasons, but did enable AW to say "combat proven in Iraq" at a crucial time in the VXX competition! As an SH platform, the lack of a ramp is a major hinderence - have you tried getting in the side door of a Merlin, let alone with a GPMG fitted there!
In the short term, there's not a lot out there. Chinooks are like gold dust (hence the UAE dragging Libyan "C" models out of the desert) as they are recognised as the assault/re-supply winner in the 'Stan. Do we really want more clapped out Pumas, or even more Merlin, that merely applies a political sticking plaster over the seeping wound of Helo lift in the hope that a bit of red meat will quieten the mob? Every mini-fleet we purchase, be they Portugese Pumas or Danish Merlins just store up more trouble for the future in modification and fleet management terms.
We're basically fighting 2 x Mediums and we've only got the SH lift for one.
I wonder how long it's going to be before we revisit the number of AH we bought?
As for the Merlin Mk1, as an SH platform it's a bit of a red herring. The TELIC re-role didn't involve any overland for obvious reasons, but did enable AW to say "combat proven in Iraq" at a crucial time in the VXX competition! As an SH platform, the lack of a ramp is a major hinderence - have you tried getting in the side door of a Merlin, let alone with a GPMG fitted there!
In the short term, there's not a lot out there. Chinooks are like gold dust (hence the UAE dragging Libyan "C" models out of the desert) as they are recognised as the assault/re-supply winner in the 'Stan. Do we really want more clapped out Pumas, or even more Merlin, that merely applies a political sticking plaster over the seeping wound of Helo lift in the hope that a bit of red meat will quieten the mob? Every mini-fleet we purchase, be they Portugese Pumas or Danish Merlins just store up more trouble for the future in modification and fleet management terms.
We're basically fighting 2 x Mediums and we've only got the SH lift for one.
I wonder how long it's going to be before we revisit the number of AH we bought?
Weren't the 814 Merlins employed in a maritime role (force protection and surface search) during Telic 1, with a number of stripped down Sea Kings performing utility roles for the task group?
Thread Starter
The supposed fact that we paid £45 m for our AH-64s when everyone else pays £15 m is a hoary old chestnut that needs to be corrected.
The NAO say that the Apaches cost £3.068 billion (£45.79 m each) but while this doesn't include the training package, it does include some spares and support - and if the NAO's price figures for Typhoon are anything to go by, may also include IPT running costs, a proportion of QinetiQ charges, etc.
This is £71 million above the original approved cost, due to
a combination of higher than expected modification costs and the increased
costs of trials. The total acquisition cost of the project, including the training
package, is expected to be £4.117 billion.
So how much do others pay?
Back in 2000, Israel paid $63.625 m per aircraft for its NEW BUILD Apaches, and more recently, Singapore paid $77 m per aircraft EXCLUDING Longbow.
And those are more like real unit production costs, not loaded with through life spares and support, not inflated by the inclusion of IPT running costs and the like.
So while we may have paid more for our RTM322 engined Apaches, than Israel did for its D models, or even than Singapore paid, we haven't paid three times the usual price, and we've got a much better, much more useful aeroplane in the process.
And around 180 British companies have benefited from the WAH-64 programme, generating about 34,000 man years of work, equivalent to 3,000 jobs per year. And all of the money paid to UK suppliers results in tax revenue for the treasury, while a straightforward buy from Boeing would not have done so, and would have burned a huge slice of our foreign reserves.
What price do you put on all of that?
The NAO say that the Apaches cost £3.068 billion (£45.79 m each) but while this doesn't include the training package, it does include some spares and support - and if the NAO's price figures for Typhoon are anything to go by, may also include IPT running costs, a proportion of QinetiQ charges, etc.
This is £71 million above the original approved cost, due to
a combination of higher than expected modification costs and the increased
costs of trials. The total acquisition cost of the project, including the training
package, is expected to be £4.117 billion.
So how much do others pay?
Back in 2000, Israel paid $63.625 m per aircraft for its NEW BUILD Apaches, and more recently, Singapore paid $77 m per aircraft EXCLUDING Longbow.
And those are more like real unit production costs, not loaded with through life spares and support, not inflated by the inclusion of IPT running costs and the like.
So while we may have paid more for our RTM322 engined Apaches, than Israel did for its D models, or even than Singapore paid, we haven't paid three times the usual price, and we've got a much better, much more useful aeroplane in the process.
And around 180 British companies have benefited from the WAH-64 programme, generating about 34,000 man years of work, equivalent to 3,000 jobs per year. And all of the money paid to UK suppliers results in tax revenue for the treasury, while a straightforward buy from Boeing would not have done so, and would have burned a huge slice of our foreign reserves.
What price do you put on all of that?