Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
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What we need are more Merlins
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Availability and serviceability are key factors in cost effectiveness, and Merlin offers both. Especially in theatre.
And it's quiet and agile. Had a Merlin been available I wonder if we'd have seen Royals strap-hanging on the outside of Apaches?
A Chinook would have given far too much warning of its impending arrival.
We can't standardise on just one type - but two seems possible. Chinooks for underslung and heavy lift, Merlin for everything else - especially the amphib stuff that a Chinook can't do.
What's needed is a single type to replace Commando SK, and Puma, and Merlin seems to offer an excellent solution, providing commonality with the existing Merlin HC3 and HM1.
And it doesn't entail spending foreign reserves, we recoup more of the price to the exchequer and it provides high value work for UK industry.
If we really NEED something smaller as well, then grab a few AW149s.
And it's quiet and agile. Had a Merlin been available I wonder if we'd have seen Royals strap-hanging on the outside of Apaches?
A Chinook would have given far too much warning of its impending arrival.
We can't standardise on just one type - but two seems possible. Chinooks for underslung and heavy lift, Merlin for everything else - especially the amphib stuff that a Chinook can't do.
What's needed is a single type to replace Commando SK, and Puma, and Merlin seems to offer an excellent solution, providing commonality with the existing Merlin HC3 and HM1.
And it doesn't entail spending foreign reserves, we recoup more of the price to the exchequer and it provides high value work for UK industry.
If we really NEED something smaller as well, then grab a few AW149s.
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Availability and serviceability are key factors in cost effectiveness, and Merlin offers both
Had a Merlin been available I wonder if we'd have seen Royals strap-hanging on the outside of Apaches
especially the amphib stuff that a Chinook can't do
UK industry
Thread Starter
1) There has been plenty of open source material on the comparative performance of Merlin and all other SH in Iraq from a serviceability and availability point of view. I also understand that there's also a restricted study, though as a mere taxpayer I would not, of course, know whether it supported my argument.....
2) I don't believe that is correct.
3) Whereas I missed the part where Boeing incorporated powered blade folding and all the other goodies that would allow a Chinook to do more than use a ship as a temporary operating site. I can walk up a gangplank and scribble in my notebook on the deck of a carrier, but that doesn't make me a Sea Harrier, nor even a qualified sailor.
Whereas the Merlin is a fully proven and fully navalised helicopter.
4) Agusta Westland still pays taxes to the UK exchequer. We will still pay for the aircraft in pounds sterling. And since all Merlins are now being built in the UK (both engine flavours, even the next Italian Navy aircraft) every penny paid to the workforce is taxed by HMG, and almost every penny spent has a direct impact on the local economy.
Better that than spending the money in France or the USA.
2) I don't believe that is correct.
3) Whereas I missed the part where Boeing incorporated powered blade folding and all the other goodies that would allow a Chinook to do more than use a ship as a temporary operating site. I can walk up a gangplank and scribble in my notebook on the deck of a carrier, but that doesn't make me a Sea Harrier, nor even a qualified sailor.
Whereas the Merlin is a fully proven and fully navalised helicopter.
4) Agusta Westland still pays taxes to the UK exchequer. We will still pay for the aircraft in pounds sterling. And since all Merlins are now being built in the UK (both engine flavours, even the next Italian Navy aircraft) every penny paid to the workforce is taxed by HMG, and almost every penny spent has a direct impact on the local economy.
Better that than spending the money in France or the USA.
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1) That'll be a no then.
2) Brigadier Jerry Thomas, Commander of British Forces, Afghanistan, said:
4) I agree that is today's situation.
2) Brigadier Jerry Thomas, Commander of British Forces, Afghanistan, said:
"This was an extremely hostile situation where our men were exposed to fire from 360 degrees. A range of options was considered by the commanders on the ground, including the use of an available Chinook transport helicopter, but it was the Apaches that were judged the best platform for performing the rescue. They are smaller and therefore less vulnerable to incoming fire, faster and carry a formidable array of weapons.
3) A folding head is possible on the CH-47 just as it is possible for the Merlin HC Mk3, however, it is not currently fitted. Your flipant answer about walking up a gangplank doesn't support your argument; the Merlin Mk 3 does not even have a deck clearance - so, fully proven?. A commando Merlin, yes, give the Merlin Mk3 to 845/846 with a folding head to replace the SK4.4) I agree that is today's situation.
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I seam to recal the Italians have a naval transport version of Merlin already in service so I would say a UK version would be farther ahead than a navalised Chinook. Also how much modification would be needed to deck lifts on Ocean, Invincible class and Argus and could Chinook be housed in Hangers of other RFA's without expensive modifications?
Just because the UK isn't flying a Maritime Merlin HC doesn't mean others aren't and please remember when pipe dreaming Chinook onto Naval vessels does it actually fit in hangers or is it exposed deck cargo?
Just because the UK isn't flying a Maritime Merlin HC doesn't mean others aren't and please remember when pipe dreaming Chinook onto Naval vessels does it actually fit in hangers or is it exposed deck cargo?
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On the 26th of March 2002, two CH47 left Ocean bobbing in the North Arabian Sea and made the 9 hour trip to Bagram, both carrying a crapload of stuff and fuel. Oh, and they crossed a 6000' mountain range on the way. They had been aboard ship as 'deckcargo' since the preceding November. Try that in a Merlin or SK.
Suggest you stick to handing out flu packs
Suggest you stick to handing out flu packs
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Whilst people lunge to attack Jackonicko, what he is really saying is that we need a more standardised fleet. Right now we have the Chinook, pretty much a mainstay of UK operations in Afghanistan, but they are in short supply. Merlin is holding its own in Iraq and showing a serious 2 fingers to its critics. Puma is short-legged and over 30, which is 210 in dog years and Sea King 4 isn't far behind. What we need now is a realisation that helicopters are an enduring part of any operation and that they need serious capital investment. That would mean more commonality, fleets stopping being almost role specific and our guys on the ground would get what they need. A Merlin can't do everything a Chinook can do, but then again a Chinook isn't suited to everything a Merlin is either, but together they complement each other.
Thread Starter
wind up lamb,
1) No, that was a yes, not a no. All indicators, class. and unclass. are that Merlin is the most serviceable and available rotary platform we have.
2) The good Brigadier had Chinook or Apache to choose from. The Chinook was too big and way, way too noisy. He didn't have the luxury of having the choice of using a Merlin.
3) No it isn't. The folding Merlin is already in full service, no-one has a folding or navalised Chinook, it won't fit the lifts, and folding the back end is not possible.
4) As long as they build Merlins in Yeovil, they'll be a better proposition industrially and politically than a Chinook from Philly or a Cougar from France.
And I'm not suggesting that Chinook isn't useful, just that we don't need a one-type SH fleet of Chinooks, and that since we have 40 of the damned things, the priority is to buy more Merlins to replace the Pumas and Commandos.
1) No, that was a yes, not a no. All indicators, class. and unclass. are that Merlin is the most serviceable and available rotary platform we have.
2) The good Brigadier had Chinook or Apache to choose from. The Chinook was too big and way, way too noisy. He didn't have the luxury of having the choice of using a Merlin.
3) No it isn't. The folding Merlin is already in full service, no-one has a folding or navalised Chinook, it won't fit the lifts, and folding the back end is not possible.
4) As long as they build Merlins in Yeovil, they'll be a better proposition industrially and politically than a Chinook from Philly or a Cougar from France.
And I'm not suggesting that Chinook isn't useful, just that we don't need a one-type SH fleet of Chinooks, and that since we have 40 of the damned things, the priority is to buy more Merlins to replace the Pumas and Commandos.
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As someone in theatre - I agree wholeheartedly with Jack, on everything he says.
A Merlin, Chinnie and AH mix, plus a credible ISTAR asset (BRH that has the right sights, sensors and self protection capability?) and then we can all stop moaning.
But it is needed, and not in a little sop to the media as here are are a few ex Danish models - it really does need to be an all inclusive over haul and investment in a long neglected fleet.
I say this as an AH driver on operations that heaven forbid if the unthinkable happens wants the security of knowledge that there is something capable of getting the right people to the right place in the most timely manner.
I look at all of the SH (across all fleets)- and I see crews, aircraft and engineers looking very tired. Bringing in the airframes is only half the battle, correctly crewing and supporting them is the next other wise given the tempo of Ops forecast for the next 8 years then there is the distinct possibility that maybe (just maybe) there will be shiney new airframes on dispersal but with no spares, aircrew or engineers to keep them flying.
A Merlin, Chinnie and AH mix, plus a credible ISTAR asset (BRH that has the right sights, sensors and self protection capability?) and then we can all stop moaning.
But it is needed, and not in a little sop to the media as here are are a few ex Danish models - it really does need to be an all inclusive over haul and investment in a long neglected fleet.
I say this as an AH driver on operations that heaven forbid if the unthinkable happens wants the security of knowledge that there is something capable of getting the right people to the right place in the most timely manner.
I look at all of the SH (across all fleets)- and I see crews, aircraft and engineers looking very tired. Bringing in the airframes is only half the battle, correctly crewing and supporting them is the next other wise given the tempo of Ops forecast for the next 8 years then there is the distinct possibility that maybe (just maybe) there will be shiney new airframes on dispersal but with no spares, aircrew or engineers to keep them flying.
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Yes it is possible to fit a folding rotor head to the Mk3 Merlins.
However, there needs to be a Mk1 gearbox fitted, which also include the tail fold actuator and the rotor head. Which is great when you have a folding tail. Why not buy the navalised Mk3 version like the Italians, who also have ASW and EAW Merlins.
And sitting in the office, You don't need to be a genius to guess whats coming when you see a small dot on the horizon and hear a "wokka wokka".
BERP IV should make the Merlins quieter. Coupled with the General Electic engines (as fitted to the V-71 [VXX]), it would increase MTOW, and speed.
Underslung loads on the Mk1s do happen, quite a few when they were deployed to Sierra Leone
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"There can only be one"
However, there needs to be a Mk1 gearbox fitted, which also include the tail fold actuator and the rotor head. Which is great when you have a folding tail. Why not buy the navalised Mk3 version like the Italians, who also have ASW and EAW Merlins.
And sitting in the office, You don't need to be a genius to guess whats coming when you see a small dot on the horizon and hear a "wokka wokka".
BERP IV should make the Merlins quieter. Coupled with the General Electic engines (as fitted to the V-71 [VXX]), it would increase MTOW, and speed.
Underslung loads on the Mk1s do happen, quite a few when they were deployed to Sierra Leone
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"There can only be one"
Thread Starter
Sorry, I should have made it more clear.
When I say "Buy more Merlins" I categorically do NOT mean more HC3s. I mean a Merlin like the Italian SF aircraft, with folding tailboom and rotors, ramp, and radar.
BERP IV and the new engine might be a good idea, though it further reduces commonality.
When I say "Buy more Merlins" I categorically do NOT mean more HC3s. I mean a Merlin like the Italian SF aircraft, with folding tailboom and rotors, ramp, and radar.
BERP IV and the new engine might be a good idea, though it further reduces commonality.
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Jacko's right on this one.
No-one has mentioned taking advantage of what comes out of the VX programme. This is likely to deliver a new gearbox, better airframe, new tail rotor etc. Combine all this with the Italian naval version, but with a full sliding door either side and you will have the perfect medium helo - highly reliable with good lift potential.
No-one has mentioned taking advantage of what comes out of the VX programme. This is likely to deliver a new gearbox, better airframe, new tail rotor etc. Combine all this with the Italian naval version, but with a full sliding door either side and you will have the perfect medium helo - highly reliable with good lift potential.
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As long as they build Merlins in Yeovil, they'll be a better proposition industrially and politically
Thread Starter
Affordability of course comes into the equation, and spending £ sterling rather than $ or even € is preferable.
It's not the only factor, nor is it the most important factor and nor have I suggested that it is, or should be.
But only a complete kn.ob would expect anyone to ignore cost/politics/industry when selecting any military equipment.
And in this case those factors are on the side of a faster, quieter, more agile more modern helicopter that is better suited to amphib lift (remember what the NAO report on battlefield helos said about that?), and that has proved to be more maintainable, more reliable and more available.
And not one from the contractor who delivered eight unuseable aircraft last time we bought anything from them.....
(yeah, I know whose fault that was, but it's just too tempting not to mention it).
It's not the only factor, nor is it the most important factor and nor have I suggested that it is, or should be.
But only a complete kn.ob would expect anyone to ignore cost/politics/industry when selecting any military equipment.
And in this case those factors are on the side of a faster, quieter, more agile more modern helicopter that is better suited to amphib lift (remember what the NAO report on battlefield helos said about that?), and that has proved to be more maintainable, more reliable and more available.
And not one from the contractor who delivered eight unuseable aircraft last time we bought anything from them.....
(yeah, I know whose fault that was, but it's just too tempting not to mention it).
Some (more) thoughts on the Merlin in the amphib role:
Bad Points:
A cab that is already performance limited,
A cab where we traded the folding head/tail off to save money & weight,
A cab that takes up as much deck space as a CH47 and offers a third of the payload,
A cab that can't lift Viking,
A cab that can barely lift a 105 gun (certainly not over Doctrinal distances)
A cab with a SHOL (CH47 - What wind? Who cares?)
A cab with a slide, oops, sorry, ramp
How many cabs for a company assault? Op Houghton 5xCH47= 240+ booties (+ support weapons) onto the target in less than 2 minutes, and if you approach at 50ft/140kts at night the enemy don't have time to worry about the noise!
A cab that's too big & too expensive for many LS, a puma sized ac proved ideal for many roles.
You need CH47 in a TAG to lift Viking etc
Good Points:
Commonality with Pingers
Made in Britain (well, sort of)
It's a bit quieter than a Chinook
A small amount of growth left (BERP IV / Engines /Transmission), but much of this will be used up with folding gear
It will fold & fit in a Hangar deck
Whilst I firmly agree that the problems with striking Chinnies below is a problem for permenant sea-basing, the norm is to fly the cabs through Europe to meet "mother" south of Biscay to avoid the worst of the weather.
Ideal fleet:
CH47 (or CH53X) / Cougar (Blackhawk) / WAH-64 / A109 Power
Combat proven, reliable, known cabs.
Let's not re-make the same mistakes again....!
Bad Points:
A cab that is already performance limited,
A cab where we traded the folding head/tail off to save money & weight,
A cab that takes up as much deck space as a CH47 and offers a third of the payload,
A cab that can't lift Viking,
A cab that can barely lift a 105 gun (certainly not over Doctrinal distances)
A cab with a SHOL (CH47 - What wind? Who cares?)
A cab with a slide, oops, sorry, ramp
How many cabs for a company assault? Op Houghton 5xCH47= 240+ booties (+ support weapons) onto the target in less than 2 minutes, and if you approach at 50ft/140kts at night the enemy don't have time to worry about the noise!
A cab that's too big & too expensive for many LS, a puma sized ac proved ideal for many roles.
You need CH47 in a TAG to lift Viking etc
Good Points:
Commonality with Pingers
Made in Britain (well, sort of)
It's a bit quieter than a Chinook
A small amount of growth left (BERP IV / Engines /Transmission), but much of this will be used up with folding gear
It will fold & fit in a Hangar deck
Whilst I firmly agree that the problems with striking Chinnies below is a problem for permenant sea-basing, the norm is to fly the cabs through Europe to meet "mother" south of Biscay to avoid the worst of the weather.
Ideal fleet:
CH47 (or CH53X) / Cougar (Blackhawk) / WAH-64 / A109 Power
Combat proven, reliable, known cabs.
Let's not re-make the same mistakes again....!
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so a Merlin with new transmission and engines with folding rotors and tail most of which is already available Is a comprimise it doesn't tick all the boxes but a good few of them.
Now according to army technology a split Viking can be carried by Merlin and how far can a puma or seaking carry a light gun?
Evalu8or quick question what happens if we have to deploy ocean and the Amphibious group further away than Europe eg to east or west africa or the far east and the TAG has to be carried and maintained for a long period at sea? Or into something like a south atlantic winter with chinook as deck cargo. Ok everyone will start thats not on the operational horizon but please remember the Falklands in 82 was on no ones operational horizon and who knows what events/natural disasters the armed forces will have to deal with in the lifetime of Chinook/Merlin.
Now according to army technology a split Viking can be carried by Merlin and how far can a puma or seaking carry a light gun?
Evalu8or quick question what happens if we have to deploy ocean and the Amphibious group further away than Europe eg to east or west africa or the far east and the TAG has to be carried and maintained for a long period at sea? Or into something like a south atlantic winter with chinook as deck cargo. Ok everyone will start thats not on the operational horizon but please remember the Falklands in 82 was on no ones operational horizon and who knows what events/natural disasters the armed forces will have to deal with in the lifetime of Chinook/Merlin.