Short term helo solutions - what's happening & what would we like to see happening?
One way of knocking down acquisition costs might be to follow the C17 approach. I'm told that during the original UK acquisition of the aircraft, the decision was made to follow US certification, training and support policies as the baseline (I don't know if this is still the case). Essentially that meant any deviation from these for specific UK requests had to be costed and a safety case impact assessment made. Funny old thing, it soon became clear that no-one wanted to pay for any of these, so the default (US) policy was almost invariably followed. Result, (relatively speaking) an on-time, on-cost programme that does exactly what it said on the tin.
Might be preferable to try that for FRC - certainly in terms of the shipborne a/c. CH53K would be another fleet, but once you drive for (ultimately) a Merlin HC3, CH47 and CH53 fleet, you're no worse off than HC4, HU5, CR6, Puma (UK and ExSAAF), Merlin and at least two models of CH47, surely? Got to be better than trying to make HC2 work embarked for long periods or marinising HC3.....
Might be preferable to try that for FRC - certainly in terms of the shipborne a/c. CH53K would be another fleet, but once you drive for (ultimately) a Merlin HC3, CH47 and CH53 fleet, you're no worse off than HC4, HU5, CR6, Puma (UK and ExSAAF), Merlin and at least two models of CH47, surely? Got to be better than trying to make HC2 work embarked for long periods or marinising HC3.....
Thread Starter
"Got to be better than trying to marinise HC3....."
That doesn't follow at all.
There is already a marinised Merlin version in UK service.
There is already a marinised SF/transport Merlin version in Italian service.
A marinised Merlin to meet what used to be SABR/FASH has to be the best option - and certainly better than a warmed over 1960s H-53 derivative.
"Do we really want more clapped out Pumas, or even more Merlin, that merely applies a political sticking plaster over the seeping wound of Helo lift in the hope that a bit of red meat will quieten the mob? Every mini-fleet we purchase, be they Portugese Pumas or Danish Merlins just store up more trouble for the future in modification and fleet management terms."
"For my money (which has been exposed elsewhere and ignored) we should hitch our wagon the US model. Chinook Fs and UH60R for the Army and CH53Ks and UH60S for the Navy."
The idea that American is always best is simply wrong. In many ways, and for many jobs, the Merlin is a better option than noisy Chinooks, and a new Merlin variant would be no more difficult (in Mini Fleet terms) than yet another non HC2 version of Chinook. And in this day and age, we can do better than UH-60s, too, and we can do so without spending dollar reserves. We can even do so and create some UK jobs.....
"Chinooks are like gold dust as they are recognised as the assault/re-supply winner in the 'Stan."
So noisy that they're dicked from take off onwards, and so noisy that the Merlin is viewed as better for IRT tasks. And with adequate armour, they don't carry many more folk than a Merlin would. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that we have a big fleet of Chinooks for the heavylift stuff that needs doing, but whether we need more....?
That doesn't follow at all.
There is already a marinised Merlin version in UK service.
There is already a marinised SF/transport Merlin version in Italian service.
A marinised Merlin to meet what used to be SABR/FASH has to be the best option - and certainly better than a warmed over 1960s H-53 derivative.
"Do we really want more clapped out Pumas, or even more Merlin, that merely applies a political sticking plaster over the seeping wound of Helo lift in the hope that a bit of red meat will quieten the mob? Every mini-fleet we purchase, be they Portugese Pumas or Danish Merlins just store up more trouble for the future in modification and fleet management terms."
"For my money (which has been exposed elsewhere and ignored) we should hitch our wagon the US model. Chinook Fs and UH60R for the Army and CH53Ks and UH60S for the Navy."
The idea that American is always best is simply wrong. In many ways, and for many jobs, the Merlin is a better option than noisy Chinooks, and a new Merlin variant would be no more difficult (in Mini Fleet terms) than yet another non HC2 version of Chinook. And in this day and age, we can do better than UH-60s, too, and we can do so without spending dollar reserves. We can even do so and create some UK jobs.....
"Chinooks are like gold dust as they are recognised as the assault/re-supply winner in the 'Stan."
So noisy that they're dicked from take off onwards, and so noisy that the Merlin is viewed as better for IRT tasks. And with adequate armour, they don't carry many more folk than a Merlin would. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad that we have a big fleet of Chinooks for the heavylift stuff that needs doing, but whether we need more....?
Last edited by Jackonicko; 31st Jan 2007 at 14:11.
Jacko
Agreed - all the various bits required for UK shipborne/amphibious ops do exist in Merlin variants - just not in the same variant and definitely not HC3! If we took the Italian Mk410 variant (ramp, and lots of gizzits) would JHC / DPA be able to resist dicking with it (Bowman, UK specific bits etc)? Hence the comment about the C17 approach, but Merlin might still be short of lift capacity / through life growth, given its gearbox issues.....which is where 53K might come in.
I doubt the USMC would go along with your description of the 53K as a 1960s rehash any more than the USA would describe current production CH47 as 1960s rehashes!
Agreed - all the various bits required for UK shipborne/amphibious ops do exist in Merlin variants - just not in the same variant and definitely not HC3! If we took the Italian Mk410 variant (ramp, and lots of gizzits) would JHC / DPA be able to resist dicking with it (Bowman, UK specific bits etc)? Hence the comment about the C17 approach, but Merlin might still be short of lift capacity / through life growth, given its gearbox issues.....which is where 53K might come in.
I doubt the USMC would go along with your description of the 53K as a 1960s rehash any more than the USA would describe current production CH47 as 1960s rehashes!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The first CH-53K isn't scheduled to make its first flight till 2011. IOC is only scheduled for 2015.
With the USMC pulling just about every airframe they have out of the boneyard for refurbishment they are going through the remaining life at a rate of knots and, IIRC, from AW&ST yesterday, the pleading has started for their augmentation/replacement. So I think it probable that everything on the production line for the first 4 or 5 years will be spoken for. So, if you are willing to wait till around 2020.
This thread is, after all, titled Short Term Helo Solutions.....
With the USMC pulling just about every airframe they have out of the boneyard for refurbishment they are going through the remaining life at a rate of knots and, IIRC, from AW&ST yesterday, the pleading has started for their augmentation/replacement. So I think it probable that everything on the production line for the first 4 or 5 years will be spoken for. So, if you are willing to wait till around 2020.
This thread is, after all, titled Short Term Helo Solutions.....
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Jackonicko said:
So how many could a Merlin carry with adequate armour? Its the fact they can barely carry itself that its considered an option for the IRT.
And with adequate armour, they don't carry many more folk than a Merlin would
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I think you'll find that in the latest MoD "fitness for service" statistics that the Puma has the highest serviceability rate of all the SH fleet at 75%. Everything else was round about 50% if my memory serves me right.
As for the solution to the helo strategy, my tea leaves say there's an anouncement in pipeline.
Just depends how long they make the pipeline.
As for the solution to the helo strategy, my tea leaves say there's an anouncement in pipeline.
Just depends how long they make the pipeline.
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As for the solution to the helo strategy, my tea leaves say there's an anouncement in pipeline. Just depends how long they make the pipeline.
JNo,
No offence intended against the current "plastic pig", which in recent times has proved to be a flexible asset (much to the chagrin of the Westland Show-pony & other communities). No, I was more concerned with old, tired ac from third parties being trumpeted by the MoD as some form of long term solution - though I hear that the Portugese ones were quite good...Now, if we could persuade the Dutch to flog us their Cougars (or swap them for the Mk3 Chinnies
) that would be a good start.
For Puma read Wessex. It might well ferry the last Merlin crew back from the landfill site!
No offence intended against the current "plastic pig", which in recent times has proved to be a flexible asset (much to the chagrin of the Westland Show-pony & other communities). No, I was more concerned with old, tired ac from third parties being trumpeted by the MoD as some form of long term solution - though I hear that the Portugese ones were quite good...Now, if we could persuade the Dutch to flog us their Cougars (or swap them for the Mk3 Chinnies
) that would be a good start.For Puma read Wessex. It might well ferry the last Merlin crew back from the landfill site!
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interesting the Cougar merlin debate starts again we want cougars to replace the merlin blah blah. intrestingly I've not met soldiers yet who haven't a bad word to say about merlin and it would appear that merlin worked well in Balkans and in Iraq or is support helecopter still sulking cause they didn't get the toys they wanted to integrate into a european airforce? Why not in long term just get merlin. As to short term well it would appear a decision will have been made. And are we going to end up in the same situation over puma as we did over wessex and the canadians did over the CH46 and the Sea King were the aircraft were kept on for to long to save money and lives were lost because of it?
Avoid imitations
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The cynics have always been saying that the Puma HC1 will never last.
Since 1971, in fact. It's still on the original version, albeit with a few more bells and whistles for toys inside. She became a little more buxom up front in about 1980 and was given some nice plastic rotor blades too, around the same time. A big improvement on the old metal ones; anyone else here remember the 27 degrees nose up PFL recoveries and the 6700 kgs MAUW?
By comparison, the Spitfire ended active service after 19 years and there were over twenty marks to keep it competitive.
After nearly 36 years I think the old girls have earned their money.
Since 1971, in fact. It's still on the original version, albeit with a few more bells and whistles for toys inside. She became a little more buxom up front in about 1980 and was given some nice plastic rotor blades too, around the same time. A big improvement on the old metal ones; anyone else here remember the 27 degrees nose up PFL recoveries and the 6700 kgs MAUW?
By comparison, the Spitfire ended active service after 19 years and there were over twenty marks to keep it competitive.
After nearly 36 years I think the old girls have earned their money.
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Puma is a good helecopter Just as wessex was and it was flogged to death. With the WG 30 then the WH60 listed in media as possible replacements but lack of money preventing replacement. If the rumours over the protugese pumas are correct then that in the long term could be bad news as the treasury may not then be sympathetic to requests for funding replacements as the budget has already been spent. BTW how many Pumas are we operating in Afghanistan? and are they capable of the hot/high enviroment? i seem to remember restrictions on them in Iraq
My understanding of Merlin ops in Iraq are that the aircraft is doing particularly well on four counts:
It has proved to be the most reliable helicopter in theatre, with 85% availability. Engines are lasting 3 or 4 times as long as other helos;
Its low noise signature;
Its three engines, giving it superior one engine inop performance;
And its active vibration damping, which on at least one occasion allowed an aircraft that had taken a ground fire hit on a blade to return safely in a state that would probably have caused another helicopter to cut short its sortie.
Anybody know different?
airsound
It has proved to be the most reliable helicopter in theatre, with 85% availability. Engines are lasting 3 or 4 times as long as other helos;
Its low noise signature;
Its three engines, giving it superior one engine inop performance;
And its active vibration damping, which on at least one occasion allowed an aircraft that had taken a ground fire hit on a blade to return safely in a state that would probably have caused another helicopter to cut short its sortie.
Anybody know different?
airsound
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Airsoundpretty sure I have read a flight safety notice in crewroom about Merlin losing an engine in the desert and really struggling to hover on 2 engines.
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Flogged to death the Puma certainly has been and it still has hours remaining, the Chinook is there as well for our forces considering the recent investment. The Merlin well as has been said is a political tool, no matter how well it is performing or how the stats are massaged.
What is missing is a long term commitment from our lords and masters committing to a joint, managed, assured and finally secure long term commitment to a future aircraft replacement to the Puma, not just the Puma 2.
It must be a secure look to the needs of a rapidly deployable armed force to police/secure any part of the world dependant on our current security policy at that time.
Following the latest polices from the Gov. (or even any future Gov for 10 yrs) it can be seen that, we will NOT be as big as the Americans, we will be following their general policies, to the dismay of many. (Due to the spending policies of the present Gov, on the past 3 terms of office) Even though they still refer any problems to tha last Tory Gov back in 1995.
We have to understand until the Treasury is willing to spend in our military we shall be following then a line of agreement with the Americans, unless we outstrip them in GDP for defence.
What I am trying to say is we do NOT have the spending in GDP or INVESTMENT in our armed forces compared to many European Countries, as has been described in another thread. But, we are the most involved in the world’s politics next to America. Until our Gov is willing to spend to meet their ambitions we the UK military shall always be known as the ‘Borrowers’. Not a term of endearment but a term of FACT
I dread to think what will happen once Broon gets his total hands on power, it won’t be pretty. I am now actively looking for work outside, after 22yrs in the mob, willing to lose pension status, to secure my future life.
Finally this ‘Gov’ are now looking at the last acts of the previous Conservative government to reintroduce what they pledged to destroy, such as water meters. So the wheel turns.
One final thought the Labour party were voted in 1996 on the ‘NHS has 24hrs to survive’, where is it now?
A long post I know, hopefully you appreciate what my views are and that you appreciate them and are not to condemn them, disagree please but not dismiss.
p.s. My wife is a physiotherapist I know where the NHS is in my part of the world.
What is missing is a long term commitment from our lords and masters committing to a joint, managed, assured and finally secure long term commitment to a future aircraft replacement to the Puma, not just the Puma 2.
It must be a secure look to the needs of a rapidly deployable armed force to police/secure any part of the world dependant on our current security policy at that time.
Following the latest polices from the Gov. (or even any future Gov for 10 yrs) it can be seen that, we will NOT be as big as the Americans, we will be following their general policies, to the dismay of many. (Due to the spending policies of the present Gov, on the past 3 terms of office) Even though they still refer any problems to tha last Tory Gov back in 1995.
We have to understand until the Treasury is willing to spend in our military we shall be following then a line of agreement with the Americans, unless we outstrip them in GDP for defence.
What I am trying to say is we do NOT have the spending in GDP or INVESTMENT in our armed forces compared to many European Countries, as has been described in another thread. But, we are the most involved in the world’s politics next to America. Until our Gov is willing to spend to meet their ambitions we the UK military shall always be known as the ‘Borrowers’. Not a term of endearment but a term of FACT
I dread to think what will happen once Broon gets his total hands on power, it won’t be pretty. I am now actively looking for work outside, after 22yrs in the mob, willing to lose pension status, to secure my future life.
Finally this ‘Gov’ are now looking at the last acts of the previous Conservative government to reintroduce what they pledged to destroy, such as water meters. So the wheel turns.
One final thought the Labour party were voted in 1996 on the ‘NHS has 24hrs to survive’, where is it now?
A long post I know, hopefully you appreciate what my views are and that you appreciate them and are not to condemn them, disagree please but not dismiss.
p.s. My wife is a physiotherapist I know where the NHS is in my part of the world.
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Reading through the threads on support helecopters the opinion of many in the RAF would appear to want Cougar over merlin. And because they were forced to take Merlin they seek to denigrate it at every opportunity even talking about figures being massaged to cast doubts on the figures and throw further doubt over merlin. when there is accidents it always oh it inherent design flaws that caused the accident even when the cause if atributed to pilot error. At wadington last year i heard a very unenthusiastic commentry on merlin.
What of course the wingers wanted was foreign built helecopters like cougar and chinook with westlands then forced to close. the political descision was taken to preserve jobs in the UK and order merlin.
OK so what If westlands had closed and BAe to that matter as British couldn't possibly be any good what is the knock on. Well not my problem say the RAF bods I'm in a safe job well paid with a good pension........ HMmmm think again. Westlands closes how many people made unemployed? how much unemployment benefit and other benefits would the former employees get? Even if they were re-employed would they get similar salaries?
So how much money does the governemt have to pay out to support them? How much tax revenue would the treasury loose? How much money would have to be paid out in job creation schemes and retraining? where would this money come from..... well the defence budget is prime target to this government so how many squadrons and stations would close? how many of you would find yourselves dumped into the real world?
On the other hand a bit of support and good news about Merlin and it might be an export success, more sales westlands may have to expand more workers more taxes and more revenue to the treasury and well some of it may actually come the MOD's way.
Or is it more selfish than that cougar/super puma is flown by most of the big helecopter companies and well if you've been converted to cougar its less of your resettlement money to pay to fly for the airlines? Would you be more keen on Merlin if the Heleliner variant was being sold to the airlines?
RANT Over
What of course the wingers wanted was foreign built helecopters like cougar and chinook with westlands then forced to close. the political descision was taken to preserve jobs in the UK and order merlin.
OK so what If westlands had closed and BAe to that matter as British couldn't possibly be any good what is the knock on. Well not my problem say the RAF bods I'm in a safe job well paid with a good pension........ HMmmm think again. Westlands closes how many people made unemployed? how much unemployment benefit and other benefits would the former employees get? Even if they were re-employed would they get similar salaries?
So how much money does the governemt have to pay out to support them? How much tax revenue would the treasury loose? How much money would have to be paid out in job creation schemes and retraining? where would this money come from..... well the defence budget is prime target to this government so how many squadrons and stations would close? how many of you would find yourselves dumped into the real world?
On the other hand a bit of support and good news about Merlin and it might be an export success, more sales westlands may have to expand more workers more taxes and more revenue to the treasury and well some of it may actually come the MOD's way.
Or is it more selfish than that cougar/super puma is flown by most of the big helecopter companies and well if you've been converted to cougar its less of your resettlement money to pay to fly for the airlines? Would you be more keen on Merlin if the Heleliner variant was being sold to the airlines?
RANT Over
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The RAF (infact the whole Armed Force's) role is not to provide Westlands with a nice stream of orders over a suitable timescale to keep the shareholders happy, we are here to carry out the will of government through military force and we should be equipped to a standard that allows us to carry out that task in the most efficient and safest manner. If Westlands can't stay competitive with the rest of the helicopter producing market then the Armed Forces shouldn't have to dip into its limited budget to bail them out, that money should come from central government coffers.
I'm sure that many troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that worked supporting them and to do that (among other things) requires logistical back-up, something the US manufacturers seem ever so slightly better at than Westlands.
I'm sure that many troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that worked supporting them and to do that (among other things) requires logistical back-up, something the US manufacturers seem ever so slightly better at than Westlands.
Thread Starter
"We should be equipped to a standard that allows us to carry out that task in the most efficient and safest manner."
Indeed.
Which is why Merlin is a better option than more Chinooks or new Cougars.
Did you read Airsound's post? It tallies exactly with everything I have heard.
This supposedly 'political tool' is out-performing its rivals, is more available, and is more cost effective. (This supposed 'political tool' was certainly preferred over the Chinook by many in the USAF CSAR community - the HH-47 force having been a political choice imposed from above, according to Bob Dorr's column in Air Force Times, for example).
I am certain that most troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that were not so noisy that the enemy heard them from miles away.
I am certain that they'd rather have helicopters that were more available, more of the time, and that were less likely to end up on the ground, in the wrong place.
I am certain that those flying the Apache, or enjoying its support, are grateful that they are WAH-64Ds, and not AH-64Ds, while I'd be surprised if you could find anyone who would prefer an S-55 over a Whirlwind, an S-58 over a Wessex, or even an SH-3 over a Westland Sea King.
Westland deserve some credit for their ability to improve and add value, arguably more now than ever before.
This tired anti-Westland prejudice may once have been more justified, but it's surley time for a more sensible approach, and to judge the freak according to it merits.
Indeed.
Which is why Merlin is a better option than more Chinooks or new Cougars.
Did you read Airsound's post? It tallies exactly with everything I have heard.
This supposedly 'political tool' is out-performing its rivals, is more available, and is more cost effective. (This supposed 'political tool' was certainly preferred over the Chinook by many in the USAF CSAR community - the HH-47 force having been a political choice imposed from above, according to Bob Dorr's column in Air Force Times, for example).
I am certain that most troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan would prefer to have helicopters that were not so noisy that the enemy heard them from miles away.
I am certain that they'd rather have helicopters that were more available, more of the time, and that were less likely to end up on the ground, in the wrong place.
I am certain that those flying the Apache, or enjoying its support, are grateful that they are WAH-64Ds, and not AH-64Ds, while I'd be surprised if you could find anyone who would prefer an S-55 over a Whirlwind, an S-58 over a Wessex, or even an SH-3 over a Westland Sea King.
Westland deserve some credit for their ability to improve and add value, arguably more now than ever before.
This tired anti-Westland prejudice may once have been more justified, but it's surley time for a more sensible approach, and to judge the freak according to it merits.
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To add some more to the debate.
The argument that US companies such as Boeing offer much better support than WHL is undermined when you consider that Boeing exacts a huge (I mean +40%) profit in some instances for support whereas WHL are somewhere about the 10-20%. Further, we are small fry to Boeing and hardly wield the stick to beat them with, unlike WHL.
WHL are transforming to a customer focussed organisation and dragging themselves away from their past. IMHO I think it is unfair to swipe at them with 'Wastelands' etc comment when there are good people there, pulling out the stops and working damn hard to provide what we need, whilst making a profit for the shareholders - no mean feat.
With AW/WHL order book now looking vacant from the MOD after FLynx, they need to be, and are, looking at other revenue streams e.g effective capability support.
As for short term solutions - there seems to be a distinct lack of rumour update for the likes of Portuguese Puma, Danish/Portuguese Merlin. As for borrowing some old Wokka stock from the US - forget it, it won't happen.
The argument that US companies such as Boeing offer much better support than WHL is undermined when you consider that Boeing exacts a huge (I mean +40%) profit in some instances for support whereas WHL are somewhere about the 10-20%. Further, we are small fry to Boeing and hardly wield the stick to beat them with, unlike WHL.
WHL are transforming to a customer focussed organisation and dragging themselves away from their past. IMHO I think it is unfair to swipe at them with 'Wastelands' etc comment when there are good people there, pulling out the stops and working damn hard to provide what we need, whilst making a profit for the shareholders - no mean feat.
With AW/WHL order book now looking vacant from the MOD after FLynx, they need to be, and are, looking at other revenue streams e.g effective capability support.
As for short term solutions - there seems to be a distinct lack of rumour update for the likes of Portuguese Puma, Danish/Portuguese Merlin. As for borrowing some old Wokka stock from the US - forget it, it won't happen.