Query on Vulcan/Falklands War?
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The Argie Air Force did themselves proud, that was never disputed, but unfortunately, for them, their Navy and Army didn't show the same balls, the Navy legged it as soon as the Brits turned up, even the famous submarine was sailing away from the islands, and the army 'conscripts' surrendered after little more than a 'fisticuffs'.
Pont,
No way even Maggie would have used a Nuke on the Argie's....thus it would have been an attack with conventional weapons.
There was great pressure on both sides to negotiate a peace....and until Maggie had a snit fit....it could have been done without the bloodshed. There is nothing worse than a Lady scorned as they say.
No way even Maggie would have used a Nuke on the Argie's....thus it would have been an attack with conventional weapons.
There was great pressure on both sides to negotiate a peace....and until Maggie had a snit fit....it could have been done without the bloodshed. There is nothing worse than a Lady scorned as they say.
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What a load of crock. There was no way that Uncle Junta was leaving unless he was pushed.
It was their last throw of the dice to divert the mainland civilian populations attention from their then dire straights.
It was their last throw of the dice to divert the mainland civilian populations attention from their then dire straights.
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Interesting to hear that SASless advocated a negotiated settlement. Wonder how his countrymen would behave if Hawaii was occupied by invaders? Thank God Maggie had bigger balls than most.
The Vulcan had not been a bomber for many years prior to the Falklands war and obviously it was difficult to place the bombs accurately. In fact, the Nimrod crews were getting better scores in visual bombing using, I believe, a chinagraph mark on the windscreen!
I was involved in getting LGBs on the Vulcan during the war and, on the only two trial deliveries, the crew achieved a CEA of around 7 feet from level release at 16,000feet. No airborne designator, however and little likelihood of good enough weather at the TOT. The RAF Harriers did really well with tossed LGBs towards the end of the war.
There is no doubt that the Vulcan threat to the mainland reduced the ability of the Argie air force to protect the elements on the islands.
The Vulcan had not been a bomber for many years prior to the Falklands war and obviously it was difficult to place the bombs accurately. In fact, the Nimrod crews were getting better scores in visual bombing using, I believe, a chinagraph mark on the windscreen!
I was involved in getting LGBs on the Vulcan during the war and, on the only two trial deliveries, the crew achieved a CEA of around 7 feet from level release at 16,000feet. No airborne designator, however and little likelihood of good enough weather at the TOT. The RAF Harriers did really well with tossed LGBs towards the end of the war.
There is no doubt that the Vulcan threat to the mainland reduced the ability of the Argie air force to protect the elements on the islands.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pont,
No way even Maggie would have used a Nuke on the Argie's....thus it would have been an attack with conventional weapons.
There was great pressure on both sides to negotiate a peace....and until Maggie had a snit fit....it could have been done without the bloodshed. There is nothing worse than a Lady scorned as they say.
No way even Maggie would have used a Nuke on the Argie's....thus it would have been an attack with conventional weapons.
There was great pressure on both sides to negotiate a peace....and until Maggie had a snit fit....it could have been done without the bloodshed. There is nothing worse than a Lady scorned as they say.
I am not arguing whether you, with 20-20 hindsight of events 24 years ago, believe we would or we wouldn't, but may I remind you the it is not the policy of HMG to confirm or deny . . .
Essentially they blinked.
On the she would- she wouldn't arguement, the whole point about nuclear deterrence we might.
Now, 24 years later, you can ask the question again. If it happened again would he or wouldn't he. If you, sitting at Las Vegas, with your baseball cap and dark glasses, are absolutely positive that nuclear weapons would not be used, would you care to communicate same to your own nuclear triad?
No, thought not.
If you are not a member of the club dare you assume that club members would not use them?
How far up the arse of a nuclear weapon have you had your arm?
BTW, I was sitting immediately behind Euan Southby-Taylor when he got the message.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SASLess,
I have followed your postings uncritically, accepting them at face value. I would like to know a bit more about you. It works wonders in building relationships.
There is at least one US Pprune with whom I hav exchanged credentials and can disagree with him publicly and make peace privately. It makes for a more sensitive and understanding arguement.
Would you care to tell me more about where you come from?
I have followed your postings uncritically, accepting them at face value. I would like to know a bit more about you. It works wonders in building relationships.
There is at least one US Pprune with whom I hav exchanged credentials and can disagree with him publicly and make peace privately. It makes for a more sensitive and understanding arguement.
Would you care to tell me more about where you come from?
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Following your logic then Pont....the little Twerp in Tehran better not make too much noise then. If you folks even remotely thought about Nuking the Argies over a bunch of sheep clear at the other end of the world....then Bananabread is in deep trouble what with the Cowboy riding point for the world herd.
I think with the actual clarity that all these years of hind sight provide us, we know Nukes were not a real option for the Falklands. The Argies never guessed you Brits would be as hardnosed about a bit of trespassing as you were. They certainly did not prepare to defend the place as they should....and discovered there is a wee bit of difference between talking harshly and dealing harshly with the British military.
WWII American surplus Cruisers sure don't stand up to Nukey Subs for sure.
As proven, you folks had the ability to whip them with conventional arms and did so quite nicely.
Never had my arm up a nukes butt as you describe....but oddly enough have been involved in guarding things we never wish to see turned loose ever. I will freely admit the concept of an all out nuclear war is something I do not even care to contemplate. To know there are people in this world on both sides or should I say all sides now...that are willing to turn the keys and set loose those Demons scares me to death. I cannot imagine setting in a missile silo for a full twenty year career....drilling repeatedly like Pavlov's Dog....and then be given a chance to set one of the things off. Then doing it....that kind of mindset scares me more than a little.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
I think with the actual clarity that all these years of hind sight provide us, we know Nukes were not a real option for the Falklands. The Argies never guessed you Brits would be as hardnosed about a bit of trespassing as you were. They certainly did not prepare to defend the place as they should....and discovered there is a wee bit of difference between talking harshly and dealing harshly with the British military.
WWII American surplus Cruisers sure don't stand up to Nukey Subs for sure.
As proven, you folks had the ability to whip them with conventional arms and did so quite nicely.
Never had my arm up a nukes butt as you describe....but oddly enough have been involved in guarding things we never wish to see turned loose ever. I will freely admit the concept of an all out nuclear war is something I do not even care to contemplate. To know there are people in this world on both sides or should I say all sides now...that are willing to turn the keys and set loose those Demons scares me to death. I cannot imagine setting in a missile silo for a full twenty year career....drilling repeatedly like Pavlov's Dog....and then be given a chance to set one of the things off. Then doing it....that kind of mindset scares me more than a little.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Depends on whether they think GWB has the same or bigger balls than MT.
I refer once again to the policy of HMG. It is not policy to confirm or deny . . .
No we don't. I refer the gentleman to my previous answer.
and that is an arguement that HMG would not have used nuclear weapons?
The answer is we did not think. We didn't dare.
If you folks even remotely thought about Nuking the Argies over a bunch of sheep clear at the other end of the world....
I think with the actual clarity that all these years of hind sight provide us, we know Nukes were not a real option for the Falklands.
The Argies never guessed you Brits would be as hardnosed about a bit of trespassing as you were. They certainly did not prepare to defend the place as they should....and discovered there is a wee bit of difference between talking harshly and dealing harshly with the British military.
Then doing it....that kind of mindset scares me more than a little.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
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Perhaps the 'little twerp in Tehran and the fat twerp in N Korea would do well to remember the name of the only nation on earth that has a record of aggressive use of nuclear power.
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..that are willing to turn the keys and set loose those Demons scares me to death. I cannot imagine setting in a missile silo for a full twenty year career....drilling repeatedly like Pavlov's Dog....and then be given a chance to set one of the things off. Then doing it....that kind of mindset scares me more than a little.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
I don't reckon I would pass the interview for that kind of job.
(The lights are so pretty.........and who needs acid when you can crank up some Pink Floyd at 0200L and listen to the hum of the electronics 
Seriously, nobody sat ICBM alert for more than 1-2 tours over a 20 year set, unlike the SAC bomber/tanker guys.
Key turning? Obviously, thought long and hard about it, but would have done it. Back then, the bad ol' Russkis were the only game in town so I really did think that if I had to turn keys, their warheads were already inbound.
MAD worked, as insane as it was. But it depended on both sides not wanting to risk the ultimate dice throw. I believe that Armydinnerjacket (stole that line from somebody....) would use his on Israel or elsewhere if he gets the chance.
I'd fully support a statement: "It shall be the policy of the United States to consider a nuclear attack on Israel or one elsewhere originating from Iran or North Korea as a direct attack upon the United States and will bring a devestating, immediate response."
But that's just me.
And now back to your originally scheduled thread.......
Suspicion breeds confidence
Gents,
In saying that Argentine Navy just fled for port and did nothing does a huge injustice to the Argentine Naval Air Arm. They achieved outstanding results, even shore based, considering what they had work with. I had the great pleasure to talk with an SuE pilot a few years ago and he was a pro of the highest order and really knew his trade.
In saying that Argentine Navy just fled for port and did nothing does a huge injustice to the Argentine Naval Air Arm. They achieved outstanding results, even shore based, considering what they had work with. I had the great pleasure to talk with an SuE pilot a few years ago and he was a pro of the highest order and really knew his trade.
GBZ,
You mean after all those shiny new things we chased around Rassay were not used? Heavens....to think I had to avert my eyes upon finding them too....wasn't cleared to know anything about them.
So help me....was told by a bearded chap wearing a Taxi Drivers hat....."When you find it....please don't look at it!"
Easiest one found was the one that found the Safety Boat vice the target.
You mean after all those shiny new things we chased around Rassay were not used? Heavens....to think I had to avert my eyes upon finding them too....wasn't cleared to know anything about them.
So help me....was told by a bearded chap wearing a Taxi Drivers hat....."When you find it....please don't look at it!"
Easiest one found was the one that found the Safety Boat vice the target.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
They had around 2 squadrons of Mirage IIIs, with only a limited night/lookdown-shootdown capability, to cover the whole of Argentina. Take a look at a map. One or two Vulcans a night, or low level during the day, could have run riot. And once the raids started they knew we had the bombers and the capability. And a stick of 20 x 1000lbs is not to be lightly dismissed.
Low level over Buenos Aries, presidential palace, parliament, miltiary headquarters? Ports, airfields, the list of potential targets was endless. Even leaflet drops in a low level pass would have had a dramatic effect.
Regardless, the fact is the generals withdrew the IIIs to protect the capital, and themselves rather than their troops in the field. Their bravery knew no bounds....
Low level over Buenos Aries, presidential palace, parliament, miltiary headquarters? Ports, airfields, the list of potential targets was endless. Even leaflet drops in a low level pass would have had a dramatic effect.
Regardless, the fact is the generals withdrew the IIIs to protect the capital, and themselves rather than their troops in the field. Their bravery knew no bounds....