Query on Vulcan/Falklands War?
I dont think the bomb racks (3 x septuple carriers) were recovered from the scrap yard, it was the carriers for the Shrike, hung on a load of carefully cut angle iron, fresh from the regiment's barb wire stocks, that were recovered. Bomb Racks a plenty at Waddington in '82.
The NBS may have been clockwork, but it still got the bombs somewhere near the islands.
The angular bomb run simply gave the stick of bombs a few thousand feet left or right of target centre, to hit the target, if the stick was dropped bang down the centre line but was +/- 50 feet, they would all miss.
The best bit of the Black Buck raids, was sitting in the very cold bomb bay being dripped on by very cold water, whilst the rest of ASI was baking.
A very nice BEFORE picture.....
The NBS may have been clockwork, but it still got the bombs somewhere near the islands.
The angular bomb run simply gave the stick of bombs a few thousand feet left or right of target centre, to hit the target, if the stick was dropped bang down the centre line but was +/- 50 feet, they would all miss.
The best bit of the Black Buck raids, was sitting in the very cold bomb bay being dripped on by very cold water, whilst the rest of ASI was baking.
A very nice BEFORE picture.....
Last edited by ZH875; 5th Oct 2006 at 19:42. Reason: Added Photo
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The angle calculation was simply based on the need to deny minimum clear runway width for use by Argie Mirages. The stick spacing dictated the gap between craters and the calculation of attack angle was designed to prevent leaving a gap wide enough to land or take off. In the event only the first bomb of the stick hit the runway so the maths were incidental.
Naval Eye is quite wrong in that, as a result of the first Vulcan attack, fast jets were not based at Stanley for the duration of the conflict. Had they been, Sharkey Ward and all his mates would have not enjoyed air superiority and the outcome of the war would have been quite different. It was not possible to deny Stanley airfield to Pucara or C-130 but it was essential to stop the Argies using it for fast jets.
Naval Eye also needs to take on board the fact that no air-to-air weapons were carried by the Argies to the Falklands after their first offensive missions. If the raids had been escorted the air-to-air score would have been different.
The Vulcan raids, although far from perfect in terms of accuracy, enabled the Harriers to operate with no opposition. That in no way is intended to suggest that they did not do an outstanding job but merely to put into perspective the effectiveness of the prodigeous effort it took to get the Vulcan to the target and back.
Naval Eye is quite wrong in that, as a result of the first Vulcan attack, fast jets were not based at Stanley for the duration of the conflict. Had they been, Sharkey Ward and all his mates would have not enjoyed air superiority and the outcome of the war would have been quite different. It was not possible to deny Stanley airfield to Pucara or C-130 but it was essential to stop the Argies using it for fast jets.
Naval Eye also needs to take on board the fact that no air-to-air weapons were carried by the Argies to the Falklands after their first offensive missions. If the raids had been escorted the air-to-air score would have been different.
The Vulcan raids, although far from perfect in terms of accuracy, enabled the Harriers to operate with no opposition. That in no way is intended to suggest that they did not do an outstanding job but merely to put into perspective the effectiveness of the prodigeous effort it took to get the Vulcan to the target and back.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Naval Eye is quite wrong in that, as a result of the first Vulcan attack, fast jets were not based at Stanley for the duration of the conflict.
It was not possible to deny Stanley airfield to Pucara or C-130 but it was essential to stop the Argies using it for fast jets.
Naval Eye also needs to take on board the fact that no air-to-air weapons were carried by the Argies to the Falklands after their first offensive missions. If the raids had been escorted the air-to-air score would have been different..
It was not possible to deny Stanley airfield to Pucara or C-130 but it was essential to stop the Argies using it for fast jets.
Naval Eye also needs to take on board the fact that no air-to-air weapons were carried by the Argies to the Falklands after their first offensive missions. If the raids had been escorted the air-to-air score would have been different..
no air-to-air weapons
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The best bit of the Black Buck raids, was sitting in the very cold bomb bay being dripped on by very cold water, whilst the rest of ASI was baking
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[QUOTE=ZH875;2891194]I dont think the bomb racks (3 x septuple carriers) were recovered from the scrap yard, it was the carriers for the Shrike, hung on a load of carefully cut angle iron, fresh from the regiment's barb wire stocks, that were recovered. Bomb Racks a plenty at Waddington in '82.
Didn't the book mention though that the AAR kit was recovered from Vulcans about to be scrapped plus one set recovered from a museum aircraft? Took a while to get it working too. Must have been a nightmare for the techies.
Didn't the book mention though that the AAR kit was recovered from Vulcans about to be scrapped plus one set recovered from a museum aircraft? Took a while to get it working too. Must have been a nightmare for the techies.
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"Victor's failing in the great scheme of things was Sir Fred.Handley Pages' (the owner of the company) refusal to join up with Hawker Siddely or British Aerospace, he lost a fair sized contract over that including another 30? Victors." Kitbag,#63.
Mk.2 Victor/Vulcan design was funded in May,1956 to carry Avro's ASM funded in March. In May,1957 42 of both were ordered, in hope 1 might work. Blue Steel Mk.1 was so painful in procurement that longer-range schemes were incredible. RAF made a 1959 Joint Requirement with USAF, won by Douglas. HP and Avro schemed dual carriage.
Avro was appointed Sister Firm to Douglas just as MoA sought “a certain measure of coalescence” in industry structure. Sir Fred, eponym, was not for coalescing. Avro sold MoA on its mismatch with low Victor, the excuse needed to ditch him. 2nd.Victor 2 BS Wing was cancelled, 3rd.Vulcan 2 Wing ordered (later cancelled). Sunshine was bought for Mk.1 follow-up. After the ALBM was shot they had to go in the reworked 2nd.Vulcan 2 Wing. Hence the long delay in kitting Cottesmore. Carting surplus US iron was not the Plan.
Mk.2 Victor/Vulcan design was funded in May,1956 to carry Avro's ASM funded in March. In May,1957 42 of both were ordered, in hope 1 might work. Blue Steel Mk.1 was so painful in procurement that longer-range schemes were incredible. RAF made a 1959 Joint Requirement with USAF, won by Douglas. HP and Avro schemed dual carriage.
Avro was appointed Sister Firm to Douglas just as MoA sought “a certain measure of coalescence” in industry structure. Sir Fred, eponym, was not for coalescing. Avro sold MoA on its mismatch with low Victor, the excuse needed to ditch him. 2nd.Victor 2 BS Wing was cancelled, 3rd.Vulcan 2 Wing ordered (later cancelled). Sunshine was bought for Mk.1 follow-up. After the ALBM was shot they had to go in the reworked 2nd.Vulcan 2 Wing. Hence the long delay in kitting Cottesmore. Carting surplus US iron was not the Plan.
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[quote=tornadoken;2892237Hence the long delay in kitting Cottesmore. Carting surplus US iron was not the Plan.[/quote]
Not bad explanation just one bit missing. The Cottesmore Wing actually formed at Coningsby with the Skybolt modded aircraft from about 1962-64. At that time the Cottesmore Wing was equipped with Victor 1 so it was never an option to base Vulcans there any earlier.
The actual plan was for the 3 Sqn Vulcan Wg from Coningsby to boltholt (later term) to Cottesmore after the 2 Sqn Victor Wing had disbanded. As late as Jul 64 new crews were advised that Coninsgby would not close. By August it was decided that the whole wing would move.
The major problem was Cottesmore mess only had about 36 rooms. The balance of the accommodation was in 3 seco huts with accommodation for between 60 and 90. As the Coningsby mess had been enlarged for the 3 sqn Wg this was not a popular move. At least the Cottesmore seco had proper central heating unlike Waddo that made do with a 'toaster' style electric fire mounted on an asbestos board.
Not bad explanation just one bit missing. The Cottesmore Wing actually formed at Coningsby with the Skybolt modded aircraft from about 1962-64. At that time the Cottesmore Wing was equipped with Victor 1 so it was never an option to base Vulcans there any earlier.
The actual plan was for the 3 Sqn Vulcan Wg from Coningsby to boltholt (later term) to Cottesmore after the 2 Sqn Victor Wing had disbanded. As late as Jul 64 new crews were advised that Coninsgby would not close. By August it was decided that the whole wing would move.
The major problem was Cottesmore mess only had about 36 rooms. The balance of the accommodation was in 3 seco huts with accommodation for between 60 and 90. As the Coningsby mess had been enlarged for the 3 sqn Wg this was not a popular move. At least the Cottesmore seco had proper central heating unlike Waddo that made do with a 'toaster' style electric fire mounted on an asbestos board.
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dakkg651. The problems with the AAR kit was not only a pain for the techies. The aircrew were having to cope with splashed fuel obscuring vision, not ideal in close formation, but, even worse, the loss of engines as the splashed fuel flowed down the intakes and caused flame-outs.
Gainsay. The cold shower from the bomb bay was generated by the warm moist surface air meeting the cold, having been at height for many hours, interior of the bomb bay and condensing out. Ascension was very humid, being close to the Equator and nothing but sea for at least 600nm in any direction.
Gainsay. The cold shower from the bomb bay was generated by the warm moist surface air meeting the cold, having been at height for many hours, interior of the bomb bay and condensing out. Ascension was very humid, being close to the Equator and nothing but sea for at least 600nm in any direction.
For those who don't have a copy of the book, the first article of http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/docu...powersum02.pdf gives an account of the first raid. Dial up users, be aware it's a sizable (ie almost 4 meg) file.
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Pontious,
Naval Eye stated that:
But the primary objective was to deny the use of Stanley to Argie fast jets and that is what was achieved in addition to the wider strategic influence on Argie tasking.
May have been a bit clumsy with the English in my post but that was what was meant.
Naval Eye stated that:
In terms of eliminating its primary objective - it failed.
May have been a bit clumsy with the English in my post but that was what was meant.
[quote=dakkg651;2892078]
The only nightmare the Radar Techies had, was when MEAS told us one of our aircraft was ready for collection, they forgot to tell us that when the probe was pressurised during a refuel test, it leaked and filled the bottom half of the radome with fuel. 
Avtur does a nice job of removing all the grease from the Radar Scanner, so the aircraft tug turned round and dropped the aircraft back in the Hangar.
Most of the aircraft still had probes attched, IIRC it was a Y shaped pipe that was missing, and not many spares left. The majority of FR probes that were nicked from the scrap or museum aircraft, ended up on the Nimrod and Hercules aircraft.
I dont think the bomb racks (3 x septuple carriers) were recovered from the scrap yard, it was the carriers for the Shrike, hung on a load of carefully cut angle iron, fresh from the regiment's barb wire stocks, that were recovered. Bomb Racks a plenty at Waddington in '82.
Didn't the book mention though that the AAR kit was recovered from Vulcans about to be scrapped plus one set recovered from a museum aircraft? Took a while to get it working too. Must have been a nightmare for the techies.
Didn't the book mention though that the AAR kit was recovered from Vulcans about to be scrapped plus one set recovered from a museum aircraft? Took a while to get it working too. Must have been a nightmare for the techies.
Avtur does a nice job of removing all the grease from the Radar Scanner, so the aircraft tug turned round and dropped the aircraft back in the Hangar.
Most of the aircraft still had probes attched, IIRC it was a Y shaped pipe that was missing, and not many spares left. The majority of FR probes that were nicked from the scrap or museum aircraft, ended up on the Nimrod and Hercules aircraft.
Suspicion breeds confidence
The Argentines never made serious effort to base FJs at Stanley for two reasons
1. They thought it was too small
2. If they had they would have been bombed by the aircraft and would very quickly be targetted by naval gunfire. Its hard to operate an airfield under shellfire.
As I said before the most important result achieved was the withdrawal of the M3s north.
1. They thought it was too small
2. If they had they would have been bombed by the aircraft and would very quickly be targetted by naval gunfire. Its hard to operate an airfield under shellfire.
As I said before the most important result achieved was the withdrawal of the M3s north.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Your supposition is logical but basing was not the only option. I believe the airfield was threatened on a hit and run basis and not a siege. The airfield would have been available as an emergency strip or a refuelling base.
In the former they could have planned to RTB but dropped in if they needed to. In the latter they could have used it on a QTR basis. Say 4 jets, two remain on CAP, two refuel, swap over etc then RTB when relieved.
The combinations are legion.
Imagine if A4s had forward deployed before dawn and attacked from Stanley before RTB?
Lots of what ifs.
In the former they could have planned to RTB but dropped in if they needed to. In the latter they could have used it on a QTR basis. Say 4 jets, two remain on CAP, two refuel, swap over etc then RTB when relieved.
The combinations are legion.
Imagine if A4s had forward deployed before dawn and attacked from Stanley before RTB?
Lots of what ifs.
